The Cold Start Doctrine Watch.

[Kompromat]

@Xeric Chief if you, say i can move it to senior's cafe, so the trash could be kept at bay?

 

[Xeric]

@Xeric Chief if you, say i can move it to senior's cafe, so the trash could be kept at bay?

Depends.

Ony, if they want to focus on the 'son'.

 

[Armstrong]

Depends.

Ony, if they want to focus on the 'son'.

Sir thoriii siii mujhe na-cheez ko bhi lift karvaa dein & tell us about the 'prodigal son' ?

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Sir thoriii siii mujhe na-cheez ko bhi lift karvaa dein & tell us about the 'prodigal son' ?

@Xeric also plz shed some light on this terror attack on India?

My thought is that lets suppose as Indian claims that any such terror attack will be directly linked to Pak Army/ISI and in response to that Indian will activate CSD to punish the Pakistan war machine. Is Pakistani military establish is really stupid enough to carry out such act without appropriate deployment of its forces? or India will create a false-flag op to make an excuse for attacking Pakistan?

 

[Armstrong]

Whats up @Icarus - Long time no see, young man ?

Sir aaap bhi kuch is 'Son' ke bareiiin mein bataa deiiin....I still don't know who the kid is ?

Are they talking about the Al-Nasr in some sort of a proverbial father & son tussle or are they talking about the CSD on a smaller level as something of a CSD Jr. thing ?

 

[Icarus]

You got that all wrong.

The main objective of CSD is destroying the equipment of Pak Military.... so that It spends more and more Budget on Military equipment while the Indian Military power grows to the day It can dictate terms.

Destroying the military equipment is a part of the fight but the real gain lies in stopping the mobilization of Pakistani troops by intersecting the major roads and driving wedges. If you meant that in the long term, please clarify and I will answer accordingly.

Holding Pak Territory would only be a Bonus... even then the main gains could be made in the Kashmir and Siachen sector rather than other parts... It would be more like Hit and Run.

Holding territory would allow the Indians the advantage of:

1) Increasing pressure on Pakistan.
2) Keep the PA occupied on a home front.
3) Build psychological pressure.
4) Use as a bargaining chip in immediate the post-war scenario.

It is interesting to watch the developments and exchange of knowledge on this thread.

Anywaz, occupation/threat of occupation to major cities may cause a rapid climb over the nuke ladder, hence not complacent to CSD.

Nukes are a deterrent and will probably be never be used, in fact holding population centres will rule out the remote possibility that Pakistan may even deploy tactical sub-kiloton devices.

Edit:

BTW, the aim of CSD was to destroy Pakistan Armed Forces, cause them insult, malign them for 'sleeping over it' while india bit into our eastern borders thereby turning the Nation against their own forces/reduced moral and material support and thus reducing Pakistan to a puppet state.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell. However, you will agree with me that the devil lies in the detail.

 

[Xeric]

Sir thoriii siii mujhe na-cheez ko bhi lift karvaa dein & tell us about the 'prodigal son' ?

The Son though maturing, is still unkown to the open source, so i cant comment on it.

Just so that you dont mind, i must tell you that it as a modification of CSD with more emphasis on being proactive. It also signify that CSD failed for india, or atleast they couldnt make it functional/realize it because of the costs involved (apart from the fact that Pakistan had an antidote for CSD, quite handy).

Another lesson from CSD (RIP); Pakistanis must understand that every brain-fart that occurs to our indian brothers should not be taken very seriously.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Destroying the military equipment is a part of the fight but the real gain lies in stopping the mobilization of Pakistani troops by intersecting the major roads and driving wedges. If you meant that in the long term, please clarify and I will answer accordingly.



Holding territory would allow the Indians the advantage of:

1) Increasing pressure on Pakistan.
2) Keep the PA occupied on a home front.
3) Build psychological pressure.
4) Use as a bargaining chip in immediate the post-war scenario.

@Icarus sir, btw i feel that CSD has more to do with Indian establishment mindset of creating a "Frankenstein" to justify their huge expenses. Modernization plans etc etc. For that role ISI is a perfect fit. India will wait for the perfect moment before going in with CSD. Until then it will continue to feed into Indian public mind of the looming dangers from China and Pakistan.

 

[Armstrong]

The Son though maturing, is still unkown to the open source, so i cant comment on it.

Just so that you dont mind, i must tell you that it as a modification of CSD with more emphasis on being proactive. It also signify that CSD failed for india, or atleast they couldnt make it functional/realize it because of the costs involved (apart from the fact that Pakistan had an antidote for CSD, quite handy).

Another lesson from CSD (RIP); Pakistanis must understand that every brain-fart that occurs to our indian brothers should not be taken very seriously.

Thank You for the reply, brother !

Can you tell me something else as well, please ?

Are we really conventionally such a walk-over as Indians & most news Articles make us out to be as if without the nukes (tactical ones) the tea at Gymkhana that the Indians missed in '65 would be a very real possibility if war breaks out now ?

 

[Icarus]

Sir,
Lets agree to disagree here, I see no advantage in holding any pakistani cities in case of hostilities, the objective I believe is to inflict heaviest possible damage on pakistani war machinery before trigger finger itches or the west intervenes

.

Addressed in response to Darky.

Air interdiction holds the key to damage the pakistani air installations, ground radar networks, fuel and supply depots, regimental head quarters and SAM locations, engaging PA in Pak airspace will be the biggest challenge and IAF has to gear up to take heavy losses, Same goes for NVAL blockade, PN will devise everything it has to break IN stanglehold, and IN will have to be able to sustain damage. Ground offensive is the last leg, and the time needed to mobilization will be covered by the Air interdiction and sead missions,

Indeed, Pakistan's recent investments in AWACs and Mobile/Fixed SAM batteries have been a key part of devising a strategy to meet IAF in our Airspace. There is no doubt that the Air arm will be an invaluable part of a CSD campaign but the ground offensive will be the heart of the conflict, the CSD revolves around the use of Air and Armour to drive those wedges I talked about and intersect major highways. A feat that cannot be completed without a proper ground offensive. The offensive will obviously come from the RCC, it's no secret, India and Pakistan both know that the RCC is easily the most tankable terrain in the Punjab and 65, 71 have both seen insertions from the RCC. If India manages to successfully drive through the RCC, the population centres will have to be taken along the way and with them, the military installations.

I hope I expressed my points more clearly this time.

 

[Kompromat]

@Xeric @Icarus

What is the new doctrine sir?

 

[Icarus]

Whats up @Icarus - Long time no see, young man ?

Sir aaap bhi kuch is 'Son' ke bareiiin mein bataa deiiin....I still don't know who the kid is ?

Are they talking about the Al-Nasr in some sort of a proverbial father & son tussle or are they talking about the CSD on a smaller level as something of a CSD Jr. thing ?

Been busy with work lately, that's why haven't been too regular.

The Son in this convo is Pakistan's evolving nuclear and conventional engagement doctrines, as influenced by the CSD.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Sir,
Lets agree to disagree here, I see no advantage in holding any pakistani cities in case of hostilities, the objective I believe is to inflict heaviest possible damage on pakistani war machinery before trigger finger itches or the west intervenes.

Air interdiction holds the key to damage the pakistani air installations, ground radar networks, fuel and supply depots, regimental head quarters and SAM locations, engaging PA in Pak airspace will be the biggest challenge and IAF has to gear up to take heavy losses, Same goes for NVAL blockade, PN will devise everything it has to break IN stanglehold, and IN will have to be able to sustain damage. Ground offensive is the last leg, and the time needed to mobilization will be covered by the Air interdiction and sead missions,

NATO conducted air operations for 30 days before launching the ground invasion during GW1. Iraqi Armour and C&C was intact, Iraqi War Machinery was only destroyed when the VII Corps moved in and smashed their defences. Air Interdiction without a ground campaign is at best useless, it is punitive at best. Considering how clustered Indo-Pak skies are, IAF is going to take serious pounding before it grounds the PAF.

It's an example, to highlight what I have been saying all along, IBG composition is not evident, there is no available data on the composition of the IBG, Hence there cannot be any assertion of how many IBG's will be deployed, So evaluation of the ground offensive, which is the only aspect of CSD that pakistani members choose to discuss (because of PA strength)is useless.

But here's the catch, there is only so much you can do with your Armour. Punjab is static; topography, canals and limited axis of movement makes Armoured Warfare very static. The only terrain where the IA can fight a manoeuvring battle is the desert of Thar. The IA can only throw so much Armour because after a certain point those numbers start becoming a disadvantage.

 

[Icarus]

@xerix @Icarus

What is the new doctrine?

There is no "New" Doctrine, the latest developments have been dubbed so, however I doubt they are in response to the CSD. Development of Sub-Kiloton Battlefield Nukes, Enhanced Second Strike Capability and Improved Command and Control Measures for our Strategic arsenal is what is being painted as a response to the CSD. However, let me clarify that the response to CSD has been completely conventional, force multipliers and a couple of formation moves are all that are needed to counter the CSD threat (If it is perceived as such) effectively.

@Icarus sir, btw i feel that CSD has more to do with Indian establishment mindset of creating a "Frankenstein" to justify their huge expenses. Modernization plans etc etc. For that role ISI is a perfect fit. India will wait for the perfect moment before going in with CSD. Until then it will continue to feed into Indian public mind of the looming dangers from China and Pakistan.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-strategic-forces/252922-son-cold-start-12.html#post4337829

 

[notorious_eagle]

@DARKY

Educate yourself before you write. Go study the National Socialist industrialization of Germany first.

Ignore him Sir

He is a high schooler, not long ago he claimed that the 'Super Duper Brahmos' cannot be detected by an AWAC. He has been busted a couple of times for his chawliyan, best we continue on the discussion in a fruitful manner.

@Xeric Chief if you, say i can move it to senior's cafe, so the trash could be kept at bay?

Please do that