The birth of a liberal movement in Pakistan

[metro]

What the heck is your point? The only thing that posts such as yours do is irritate the hell out of everybody here(& your flags aren't helping), make them defensive & get the nutters gloating about how the liberals are on the same side as chaps like you. Makes their work that much harder. Please refrain from posting such stuff.

plz go through the whole article first.
its not written by me. i picked it from some blog.

 

[Bang Galore]

plz go through the whole article first.
its not written by me. i picked it from some blog.

Not directed at you personally. The content of the post does not help in this discussion.All it does is to provoke some guy to rant about Hindus & Christians in response & this thread will soon be running off in a completely different direction.

 

[metro]

Not directed at you personally. The content of the post does not help in this discussion.All it does is to provoke some guy to rant about Hindus & Christians in response & this thread will soon be running off in a completely different direction.

ok fine. i deleted it.

 

[Rafi]

The fact is that the assassination of Mr Taseer has encouraged a spirit of discussion even in my own immediate family, and this can only be a good thing, lets hope that all the progressive forces can take us back to the more pluralistic times of the 60's and 70's - all who love Pakistan - must take it back from the extremists.

 

[American Pakistani]

A liberal extremist is someone who thinks that every man with a beard is a terrorist, and every woman in a hijab is a fanatic.

In their sycophantic zeal to ingratiate themselves with Western audiences, these Uncle Toms are just as intolerant as the worst mullahs.

You want names? Pervez Hoodbhoy, Nadeem Paracha, Ahmed Rashid, ...

We have quite a few sycophantic liberal extremists in Paksitan.

As others have said, we need to find a middle ground. Pakistan is not the USA; one size does not fit all. We need to find our own identity that combines moderate Islamic values with the best of Western secularism.[/QUOTE]

Yes as i have said earlier in my post that Pakistan need Sufism version of Islam, as it is our culture & also soul of our beloved Pakistan & also it is moderate. Beleive me Wahabiesm & Liberalism will finish Pakistan.

 

[Rafi]

Pakistan was a wonderful place before that idiot Zia, we were well on the way to becoming a progressive middle income developed country.

In the 60's and 70's we were fairly pluralistic.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

A liberal extremist is someone who thinks that every man with a beard is a terrorist, and every woman in a hijab is a fanatic.

In their sycophantic zeal to ingratiate themselves with Western audiences, these Uncle Toms are just as intolerant as the worst mullahs.

You want names? Pervez Hoodbhoy, Nadeem Paracha, Ahmed Rashid, ...

We have quite a few sycophantic liberal extremists in Paksitan.

As others have said, we need to find a middle ground. Pakistan is not the USA; one size does not fit all. We need to find our own identity that combines moderate Islamic values with the best of Western secularism.[/QUOTE]

Yes as i have said earlier in my post that Pakistan need Sufism version of Islam, as it is our culture & also soul of our beloved Pakistan & also it is moderate. Beleive me Wahabiesm & Liberalism will finish Pakistan.

assalam alaikum

Brother we need to follow Prophet ( PBUH) 's version of islam and not other version

TARIQ

 

[monitor12345]

All we need is a Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. But who's going to be that person?

THE ANSWER IS NOBODY.

 

[FreekiN]

 

[Durran3]

Yes as i have said earlier in my post that Pakistan need Sufism version of Islam, as it is our culture & also soul of our beloved Pakistan & also it is moderate. Beleive me Wahabiesm & Liberalism will finish Pakistan.

I would like you to define Liberalism for me... first before you entirely ditch the concept and tell me as to why do you specifically oppose it.. Don't give me any ludicrous religious justifications but as to why YOU think it doesn't work and as to why YOU think it's a flawed idea?

Yet at the same time I want you to tell me why YOU think Sufism is the way to go and why liberalism will be the downfall of Pakistan?

 

[Karachiite]

THE ANSWER IS NOBODY.

Pervez Musharraf
Imran Khan
Ashfaq Kiyani
Farooq Sattar

I can add Mustafa Kamal as well but he is far too young.

 

[pak-marine]

Fighting for a progressive Pakistan

Ten years ago, Pakistan was a different place. The country had many problems, as it has had since its very inception, but it was not somewhere a man would fire 40 bullets at an unarmed man’s back and be lauded as a hero. In the Pakistan of today there are rows of security checkpoints at every major street of the federal capital, and yet we feel unsafe — constantly asking for more police officers — who it seems will shoot us in our backs.

But then again, it was only 10 years ago that September 11 happened and the US waged two wars against Muslim majority countries, creating a world of increasing polarisation full of fear, suspicion and conspiracy. It also began the bombing of its most loyal ally, Pakistan, making drone attacks a daily occurrence.
Three decades ago, Pakistan was even more different, for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan had not yet come to pass, leading to the propping of the brutal military dictator Ziaul Haq, who left us with the absurd blasphemy laws that exist now. Five decades ago, the pictures we see of this land bear no relation to the world outside my window. That was before 1971, when, through our own follies, we lost a chunk of ourselves and the nation was thrown into doubt over its very identity, the two-nation theory, the need for a separate homeland for Muslims. It was only after this that legislation was passed, during Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s time, declaring Ahmadis ‘non-Muslims’.
All those things did happen and this is the Pakistan of today. However, it is also true that facts can change. In response to PPP MNA Sherry Rehman’s submission of a bill to amend the blasphemy laws, the religious parties announced two rallies — on December 31 and January 9. The turnout at the first was unimpressive and the strike ineffectual, especially in Lahore. According to news reports, the second attracted around 40,000 people. The glorification by Islamist parties and mainstream media outlets of Governor Salmaan Taseer’s assassin, Mumtaz Qadri, bolstered support
for him.
As for those on the other side, those who want a change in the law, they know that they are vulnerable when they stand together and claim public space. They are painfully and mournfully aware of their vulnerability — but that has not stopped hundreds from coming out every day. We cannot believe that the possibility of a progressive Pakistan was laid to rest with the murdered politician. Certainly his daughter, Shehrbano Taseer, does not espouse that when she wrote in The New York Times, “We buried a heroic man, not the courage he inspired in others.” We cannot let his death
go to waste.
Published in The Express Tribune, January 11th, 2011.

 

[pak-marine]

The liberals can’t do it alone

Dirges we have penned, some hauntingly moving, in this and other English-language newspapers in the wake of Salmaan Taseer’s foul murder. Some of us have also written our epitaph. But societies have a way of not dying even when they begin putrefying, so what now?

The situation is not good and that’s stating the obvious. If the killer, when taken to court, had faced people standing there and silently condemning him, there would be no challenge. The issue would have reduced to a lone fanatic pulling the trigger.
But he is being hailed as a hero by ordinary people and even professionals, like the group of lawyers who want to fight his case gratis. These lawyers were likely part of the movement to restore the chief justice and, by extension, rule of law. And yet they are celebrating murder while preparing to exploit due process in favour of a remorseless murderer.

Then we have the Barelvi clerics, under threat from the Deobandi/Salafi groups who bomb their rallies and mosques. One Barelvi cleric, Dr Tahirul Qadri, issued a fatwa last year condemning violence by al Qaeda and its affiliates. Another, Mufti Sarfaraz Naeemi, was killed last year while leading Friday prayers. The Barelvis are a liminal, inclusive denomination. Yet, they are prepared to invoke the exclusion principle to condone Salmaan Taseer’s killing even as they reject the same principle when employed by the Salafis against them and the Shias.
These contradictions are important to flag when dealing with the issue of blasphemy and the emotions it generates. The other important fact is that those condemning Salmaan Taseer’s murder are in a clear minority. It is not enough to write in an English-language newspaper and say we want this law repealed; nor is it enough to see how many times that has been tweeted and ‘liked’ and think there is a groundswell against these laws. The terrible and terrifying fact is that there is no space at this point for the minority to launch a frontal assault on the blasphemy laws. Heck, the fact is newspaper groups publish articles critical of the blasphemy laws in their English-language newspapers but they won’t in their Urdu-language ones — the Express group excepted.
Does that mean we should say plague on this house and leave? Perhaps, but that’s not the choice for me and I assume neither is it for many others. The choice I do have is to appreciate the situation and plan accordingly rather than situating the appreciation and getting routed.
Let’s then set the premise differently. Do even those who would happily kill someone for committing blasphemy want to kill someone who hasn’t or has been framed? I don’t think so. The emphasis then should be to campaign for those procedural amendments that would save someone innocent from the mischief of these laws. Not easy that; previous efforts have been frustrated. But the problem is that all such efforts have come from the moderate enclave. The moment that happens, the rightwing closes ranks and forces the moderates on the back foot.
Brick by brick has this to be built and the rightwing has to be co-opted. Look at it like this: in theory, if the Jama’at-i-Islami or the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam were to move a legislation to rectify these laws, how would the public react? Now, try getting the PPP to do it. The reactions would be totally different. Even though, in an election the PPP will do much better than all religio-political parties put together!
Let’s also not forget that societies have the right to make laws and if they want a bad law there’s not much a minority can do. In a democracy, it is even more difficult. Numbers count. That’s the bitter reality.
A good example is the hudood laws. Bad laws those, but much of the sting has gone out of them through piecemeal procedural changes. A similar strategy has to be adopted vis-a-vis the blasphemy laws. Making a splash won’t do; a silent approach is what’s required. The laws will stay but their operation needs to be rationalised — that is the short- to medium-term requirement. The irony is, only the rightwing can do it. Are we smart enough to hold our noses and co-opt the rightwing?
Published in The Express Tribune, January 10th, 2011.

 

[Developereo]

Your ignorance is skyrocketing here... Pervez Hoodbhoy? Really.. An MIT Physicist whose been teaching in Quaid-e-Azam University

From http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...ion-how-could-become-one-pervez-hoodbhoy.html

While it is true that most Punjabis think of themselves as Pakistani first and Punjabi second, this is not the case with the Baloch or Sindhis.

And Critical minds alone can take us forward: Dr Hoodbhoy | PAMIR TIMES

“Students were more enlightened and liberal 30 years ago. Today 60 per cent of the girl students in Quaid-i-Azam University (QAU) come in burqa and another 10 per cent in hijab,” said Dr Hoodbhoy who is Professor of Nuclear Physics and Chairman of the Physics Department, Quaid-i-Azam University. He has been a faculty member at the QAU since 1973.

Hoodbhoy does have some very good ideas about reforming Pakistan, but he also has this self-righteous liberal extremist streak.

your right wing nutters

Thanks for proving my point about the intolerance of the left. Anybody who dares to disagree and look for a middle ground is a "right wing nutter".

NFP? Really..?

Yes, really.

I was impressed by NFP at first because he seemed to be critisizing the extremist mullahs, which is commendable. But I found out after a while that NFP is a one-trick pony. He has nothing worthwhile to say on any other subject and almost all his articles eventually boil down to Islam-bashing.

NFP doesn't like the fact that Pakistanis now say "Allah hafiz". Well, I still say "Khuda hafiz" because that's what I grew up saying but I have no problem if others want to say "Allah hafiz". This sort of petty nitpicking is NFP's bread and butter, nothing more insightful or visionary.

not every man who criticizes the social ills of our society is a Liberal extremist.

I never said it; you are deliberately twisting my words. There are plenty of people who are honestly critical of both extremes and seek a middle ground. Those are the people to follow.

Mere thinking cannot be equated to murder. Shooting everyone with a beard & hijab would probably be the correct equivalent.

It goes beyong mere thinking. If such thinking leads to legislation that forbids hijabs or head scarves in certain places, then it infringes on people's basic rights. Even without legislation, such irresponsible generalizations create stigma and divisions within society.

Why is it that people living in western democracies are the greatest advocates for non liberal experiments? Is it because they don't have to be around to suffer the consequences?

Poppycock!

My position is the essence of liberalism. I want an inclusive society that celebrates diversity, not one that encourages suspicion and stereotyping based on people's looks. It is the extremists, both theocratic and liberal, who want to impose their intolerance for each other upon others.

Gibberish nonsense! There is no middle ground with these people unless you mean shooting people in the middle instead of the head. Funny thing is that guys like you will learn the hard way that they really don't care for your "moderate extremism" and if you don't fall in line, you are as much a target as those you criticise for being liberal.

The word extremism has been bandied about in the past few days. The definition of an extremist is someone who is so convinced of his own position, he won't even listen to his opponent. That definition applies to both liberal and religious extremists. I am neither; I want to find a middle ground and we won't find one unless we talk to each other.

Everyday that I read posts by some of the members here, the more pessimistic I become of Pakistan's ability to save itself.

Appreciate your concern but we will find our way out of this. As I said, Pakistan must find its own identity -- a confluence between Islamic culture and Western secularism. I believe it is possible to find such a balance.

If the killing of Salman Taseer for holding an opinion doesn't wake you guys from your stupor then I don't know what will. People are being killed for disagreeing with the guys with the guns.

As stated umpteen times, this is a failure of law enforcement. Anyone who commits or aids murder should be held accountable.

Mullahs do need to be cleaned out that is not extremist many of them are out of their damn mind and they need to be arrested and charged with advocating violence and murder. Qouting verses out of the Quran and saying you did it for your religion should not even be considered a valid defense.

Exactly!

Anybody who incites unlawful activity should be held accountable, whether they are a mullah or a professor.

Common ground is simple if you can practice any religion you want (non violently and not advocating any violence) then your fine

That is exactly my point. It's worth comparing the two types of secularism in the West.

The European model, followed by France and Turkey, tries to hide, almost criminalize, religion in public. People are told that religion belongs in the house and people's religion should not be visible in public.

I prefer the American model, which celebrates diversity instead of hiding it under the rug. Everybody is free to practice and even promote their spiritual beliefs. The only requirement is that it should be peaceful and that people respect others' beliefs.

Once again, the head scarf issue is symbolic. European countries want to ban schoolgirls from wearing it in public. The American Girl Scouts, on the other hand, amended its dress code to include the head scarf. The American view is that a girl should not have to choose between her religion and her other rights. If some people are offended by a head scarf, then they are the ones at fault and need to become open-minded.

I want Pakistan to follow more along the American model. I don't want people to be ashamed or apologetic about their religion. I want us to celebrate diversity instead of pretending it doesn't exist. I miss the Pakistan of the 70s where we used to show Christmas mass on national TV.

A liberal Pakistan should let a woman decide if she wants to wear a burqa or a mini-skirt. I don't want liberal extremists or Islamists banning either one because it offends their sensibilities.

That, to me, is true definition of liberalism.

assalam alaikum

Brother we need to follow Prophet ( PBUH) 's version of islam and not other version

TARIQ

Well, that will be an interesting debate since different people have different ideas about what that version looks like. All I am saying is that this debate should occur within the law in a civilized manner, and always keeping in mind the rights of people who believe differently or don't believe at all. We want a Pakistan that welcomes all its citizens.

 

[Meengla]

Developereo,
Just the fact that you use 'liberal extremists' shows you where you stand despite this repeated talks of 'inclusiveness' and 'middle ground' blah blah. Which liberal extremists are to make people change their ways? You will be surprised that most of these liberal extremists are as 'pious' in their daily lives as the fanatics are. The major difference, of course, is the liberal extremists follow the rule of law while the fanatics threaten to stand in 'every corner' as Mumtaz Qadri.
Nice try. But next time try to be a bit more polished in trying to hide yourself and come up with something more than empty talk of inclusiveness, middle ground blah blah.

Coming back to the topic, here is what I wrote at the Comments section of Express Tribute related to this topic. I know, not feasible, but...we liberal moderates are getting desperate.

@A Suppressed Liberal,
You are so correct! If the government gives/leases us any piece of land–however barren, say between Karachi and Gwadar (so that there is a good distance from the fanatics) along the sea, we liberals will turn that into something productive, lush using reason, commerce, and hardwork.
Please PPP! You are in govt. in Sindh, Islamabad, and also in Baluchistan. Give us ‘political asylum’ inside Pakistan itself. We don’t want much except to be free to start fresh, away from the clutches of the fanatics.
In the West, there are ‘communes’ and ‘intentional communities’ where like minded people live simply. We want something like that. To start a new Pakistan. The Pakistan of Jinnah!