The birth of a liberal movement in Pakistan

[Jigs]

A liberal extremist is someone who thinks that every man with a beard is a terrorist, and every woman in a hijab is a fanatic.

So who do they kill or where do they blow themselves up ? Or are you saying these are just people that don't like a religion ? I would not label them as liberal extremists but simply intolerant. The fact is though these people do not resort to violence and then try to justify it for god or the prophet.

As others have said, we need to find a middle ground. Pakistan is not the USA; one size does not fit all. We need to find our own identity that combines moderate Islamic values with the best of Western secularism.

If you keep Islam there it won't get better. People in your country are not ready for a religious ideology when they are suicide bombing and killing governors they disagree with in the name of Islam. I bet if you surveyed people you would get so many different answers on what exactly Islam is and how it applies to Pakistan it would only confuse you more.

I still don't understand how a Turkish system wouldn't work. It fits moderates perfectly. You go and do your thing and leave it out of the government. Why is that difficult for some people to understand ?

 

[greatsequence]

A liberal extremist is someone who thinks that every man with a beard is a terrorist, and every woman in a hijab is a fanatic.

In their sycophantic zeal to ingratiate themselves with Western audiences, these Uncle Toms are just as intolerant as the worst mullahs.

You want names? Pervez Hoodbhoy, Nadeem Paracha, Ahmed Rashid, ...

We have quite a few sycophantic liberal extremists in Paksitan.

As others have said, we need to find a middle ground. Pakistan is not the USA; one size does not fit all. We need to find our own identity that combines moderate Islamic values with the best of Western secularism.

You forgot the Big daddy Musharaf

 

[Bill Longley]

you cannot solve the problems of society by not reckoning the roots.
To be frank Pakistan was and is victim of its elite. The indoctrinated the public when ever they needed their support.

Read the history of Pakistan . After Quaid , we had no real leader to guide us.

we are just playing blame game.

trapped between two extremes, My nation is not realizing that best way is middle way. cannot defeat extremism with extremism .only with education and justice in society we can get on right track.

Justice is key word to come out of this situation. Bring just in society and you will see exploiters will vanish and society will be balance free of any extremism.
try to understand the life and miseries of common Pakistani.

A frustrated mind is indeed an extremist mind

roots of this extremism are in socio- economic problems. without adressing these problems we cannot defeat extremism. Use of force will only make this menace into many headed hydra

 

[Developereo]

So who do they kill or where do they blow themselves up ? Or are you saying these are just people that don't like a religion ? I would not label them as liberal extremists but simply intolerant. The fact is though these people do not resort to violence and then try to justify it for god or the prophet.

Intolerant, extremist, it's a matter of semantics.

You are right, they don't advocate violence. At least not openly, although they do advocate 'cleaning out the mullahs' which sounds ominous. I would hope they want to do it peacefully through legal means and education, not vigilantism.

If you keep Islam there it won't get better. People in your country are not ready for a religious ideology when they are suicide bombing and killing governors they disagree with in the name of Islam.

That's a matter of law enforcement. We need proper law enforcement no matter what kind of system we have.

I bet if you surveyed people you would get so many different answers on what exactly Islam is and how it applies to Pakistan it would only confuse you more.

Agree, this is one of the biggest challenges. That is why extremism on all sides must be shunned so moderates can find common ground.

I still don't understand how a Turkish system wouldn't work. It fits moderates perfectly. You go and do your thing and leave it out of the government. Why is that difficult for some people to understand ?

Turkey has a good system, but I consider it to be too secular. I don't know all the details of the Turkish system, and I understand some religious freedoms have been restored recently, but one simple example is the Turkish ban on head scarves. I consider that to be an infringement of religious freedom. The government should not be in the business of dictating dress codes.

Everybody sings praises of democracy and, in a democracy, if the majority of people want an Islamic republic, then so be it. Moderate liberals must not oppose it. What we should aim for instead is to make sure adequate provisions are made to protect the rights of minorities.

 

[Durran3]

A liberal extremist is someone who thinks that every man with a beard is a terrorist, and every woman in a hijab is a fanatic.

In their sycophantic zeal to ingratiate themselves with Western audiences, these Uncle Toms are just as intolerant as the worst mullahs.

You want names? Pervez Hoodbhoy, Nadeem Paracha, Ahmed Rashid, ...

We have quite a few sycophantic liberal extremists in Paksitan.

Your ignorance is skyrocketing here... Pervez Hoodbhoy? Really.. An MIT Physicist whose been teaching in Quaid-e-Azam University for God knows how long has contributed to the Pakistani education and society far more than your right wing nutters can possibly think of and just how EXACTLY is he a liberal extremist and you better dam right give us proof for making such a nonsensical statement..NFP? Really..? Just because these people write columns and articles in a civilized manner expressing their views and legitimate concerns plaguing our society your labeling them a liberal extremist?

Thats not extremism buddy.. thats voicing your opinion and concerns in a sophisticated manner using the printed media rather than strap a bomb and blow yourself up in the market to make a point. Not every man who has a beard is a terrorist and not every man who criticizes the social ills of our society is a Liberal extremist.

 

[Meengla]

Taseer had Indian wife and he most probably was spying for India.
Most likely assisted in attack on Srilankan team aswell.
Nothing but a traitor.
His son hold Indian passport, what more proof of his Indian allegiance is needed?
Govt. need to explain his Indian nexus.

I always thought of you as a worthless member here. Your comment here confirms it. You are another 'Elite' member here which is going to be exposed.
Guys: Look at his comments? Is he an 'educated' Pakistani? I mean just think! There are a few others here justifying Taseer's murder but none have stooped to so low levels of stupidity this guy has.
We should stand up to people like him despite they appearing like 'one of our own'. What kind of 'elite' membership is his?

 

[Bang Galore]

A liberal extremist is someone who thinks that every man with a beard is a terrorist, and every woman in a hijab is a fanatic.

Mere thinking cannot be equated to murder. Shooting everyone with a beard & hijab would probably be the correct equivalent.

In their sycophantic zeal to ingratiate themselves with Western audiences, these Uncle Toms are just as intolerant as the worst mullahs.

Why is it that people living in western democracies are the greatest advocates for non liberal experiments? Is it because they don't have to be around to suffer the consequences?

As others have said, we need to find a middle ground. Pakistan is not the USA; one size does not fit all. We need to find our own identity that combines moderate Islamic values with the best of Western secularism.

Gibberish nonsense! There is no middle ground with these people unless you mean shooting people in the middle instead of the head. Funny thing is that guys like you will learn the hard way that they really don't care for your "moderate extremism" and if you don't fall in line, you are as much a target as those you criticise for being liberal.

This would have been funny if it wasn't coming from a senior, respected member. Now it is just another symptom of the malaise that seems to have taken deep root in Pakistani society. Everyday that I read posts by some of the members here, the more pessimistic I become of Pakistan's ability to save itself. If the killing of Salman Taseer for holding an opinion doesn't wake you guys from your stupor then I don't know what will. People are being killed for disagreeing with the guys with the guns. I hope you are a very agreeable fella. Practice if you aren't. Oops I forgot, You don't live in Pakistan.So, no worries then!

 

[Rafi]

YouTube - [HD] Aik Alif Saeen Zahoor And Noori At Coke Studio Sessions [HD]

Listen to what Baba Bulleh Shah is saying here through the beautiful voice of Saeen Zahoor and Noori - and those justifying the murder of Shaheed Salman Taseer should be ashamed of themselves.

They neither know our religion or our Great Prophet. Peace and Blessings Upon Him.

 

[Meengla]

Why is it that people living in western democracies are the greatest advocates for non liberal experiments? Is it because they don't have to be around to suffer the consequences?

May be because these expats are misogynists with small pricks? Losers without good jobs?

Oh, they can support all kind of extremism inside Pakistan because, as you say, they don't have to suffer the consequences. Flight out of Pakistan to London is not that expensive for them.

Western govts need to keep an eye on these losers who bring bad name to Pakistan, Islam and humanity. Throw political correction to the wind and grab them before they do any more damage.

 

[metro]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[mehru]

C'mon man that's loose talk. It was his illegitimate child born out of a one night stand.

He even stayed away from his kid (which I think was wrong) for a very long time. I'm sure you can make masala like that about any overseas Pakistani too since you have to deal with Indians all the time, they are everywhere.

Not that his personal life matters but Taseer married twice. Its really sad that he didn't own his son.

New Delhi: Salman Taseer, governor of Pakistan's Punjab who was assassinated on Tuesday, had an all-too-real India connection: he married and divorced Indian journalist Tavleen Singh and had a British-born son Aatish, who grew up in India and has authored a novel dramatizing a son's search for a father.

Salman Taseer came to India in March 1980 to promote a laudatory biography of Pakistan's leader Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. According to columnist Khushwant Singh, Taseer met Tavleen Singh at the Oberoi hotel where he stayed and fell in love with her. The two married briefly, but fell apart swiftly, leading to much bitterness.

Salman Taseer's Indian link

 

[mehru]

Liberals have become extremists in Pakistan when they can't even speak freely and haven't done a single act of violence against conservatives...

The thing is we have spoken kindly with Mullahs for a long time, now its time to oppose them. Abu Basit was right, liberals need to show their strength. Shor Macha, Awaz Utha!

Jab tak yeh Mullay insaan ke bachay nahi banjatay, inke naak main damm karna humara farz hai. Yeh sab wajib-ul-tapao hain.

No man we need to adopt a middle path. It's the duty of Govt to find some solution which is acceptable to everyone. Only they can end this bickering.

There is no secularism Vs Liberalism war going in Pakistan. Both need to live side by side. What we need right now is tolerance for each other. I was counting on moderate scholars but they disappointed me by taking the extreme path.

 

[Jigs]

Intolerant, extremist, it's a matter of semantics.

You are right, they don't advocate violence. At least not openly, although they do advocate 'cleaning out the mullahs' which sounds ominous. I would hope they want to do it peacefully through legal means and education, not vigilantism.

Mullahs do need to be cleaned out that is not extremist many of them are out of their damn mind and they need to be arrested and charged with advocating violence and murder. Qouting verses out of the Quran and saying you did it for your religion should not even be considered a valid defense.

That's a matter of law enforcement. We need proper law enforcement no matter what kind of system we have.

Education, Law enforcement, social stability. Many things have play on this issue.

Agree, this is one of the biggest challenges. That is why extremism on all sides must be shunned so moderates can find common ground.

Common ground is simple if you can practice any religion you want (non violently and not advocating any violence) then your fine and the people opposing this are what must be rooted out(you need people willing to get things done and be firm with these groups. These mullahs and this blasphemy law go against that and they must be shut down. The issue here is the people trying to find middle ground are often met will violence at the hands of the religious crazies that fill the country day by day.

Turkey has a good system, but I consider it to be too secular. I don't know all the details of the Turkish system, and I understand some religious freedoms have been restored recently, but one simple example is the Turkish ban on head scarves. I consider that to be an infringement of religious freedom. The government should not be in the business of dictating dress codes.

Pakistan does not need to adopt everything. Only the overall idea. The Headscarf issue would not work with Pakistan obviously but in Turkey we keep our government buildings secular as they are part of the state and that is where dress codes are applied. (not to the overall public). Imam hatip schools would offer the best solution atm for Pakistan. See what these schools do is train Imams(who in turn are what end up teaching the masses that choose to learn) Turkey does not do Mullahs there is no such thing is our country. The course work is 40% Islam and Arabic and 60% university type courses. Erdogan was a graduate of relgious schools and that's really about as religious as your going to get in Turkey. I can guess he is the ideal person Pakistan would want considering how much support is generated for him on the forums.

Everybody sings praises of democracy and, in a democracy, if the majority of people want an Islamic republic, then so be it. Moderate liberals must not oppose it. What we should aim for instead is to make sure adequate provisions are made to protect the rights of minorities.

This is where i disagree. Islam in essence is not a democratic system. it favors its majority not the minority. More importantly it is also a system that is not set up to adapt to the changing times or social issues (since it is viewed as being perfect and not be changed for centuries. Which is fine if people want to believe that but in government that is simply not workable. You must have a logical and calculating system here that can adapt and change along with the times) Religous systems simply can not work in today's society. Look at Iran and SA and their human rights records and overall progression. They both operate religious systems and really without their oil exports they don't have much to offer. Though at least Iran has a solid liberal movement be it limited and oppressed. (Exactly because of the system currently in place in that country) Pakistan on the other hand these types of people are killed and the murderer praised.

I think Pakistan really needs the military to step in and reform the country. Politicians are too concerned about their own terms and careers to take any risk. Especially the current establishment which can't even walk without the religious party say so.

 

[Solomon2]

Sign me up, I solemnly swear to stick it to these Mullahs every chance I get!

Careful. With that kind of attitude you could end up as the tool of one mullah in his battle with another, yes? Don't you think it would be better to take the lead yourself and meet up with like-minded fellows to construct a common agenda than to pledge blind loyalty out of a desire for revenge?

 

[Bang Galore]

The Illusion of Reforming Islam

What the heck is your point? The only thing that posts such as yours do is irritate the hell out of everybody here(& your flags aren't helping), make them defensive & get the nutters gloating about how the liberals are on the same side as chaps like you. Makes their work that much harder. Please refrain from posting such stuff.