The birth of a liberal movement in Pakistan

[kugga]

Good luck with that.



It doesn't matter. He is linked with Jamiat Ul Islami. A known supporter of the Taliban. He should be tried as a traitor, murderer and terrorist. And anyone who praises him should be dealt with the same.

Liberal 'extremist?' LOL. How many people have liberals killed?

All the one's killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and also through drone attacks inside pakistan are killed by liberals... The liberals want to put their system on to others they want to put their theories of life on to others and they do it by hook or by crook... The world has now become a hell just because of those liberals extremists who just want to live and want others to live like what liberals think...

Now don't come with an argument that liberals (The American Liberals) attacked Iraq because of WMD's and Afghanistan because of Osama coz this is just a lame excuse you don't invade a country for just a man....

 

[FireFighter]

FF, tell me, why should your words be respected?

So tell me why did the new yorkers come on the streets when Saddam was hung by the kangaroo courts set up by the military?

Zardari is very similar to Saddam. The difference is that Saddam gased his own people, but Zardari has unleashed all sorts of economic terrorism on the civilians of Pakistan.

Firefighter,
Yes, report us to the Mods. By all means. At least we are not justifying the murder of an innocent person like Salman Taseer. You, on the other hand, ARE. You even call Taseer as 'corrupt' without any proof. Even his opponents in PMLN are not calling Taseer as 'corrupt.'
And, yes, you bring bad name to Pakistan by supporting terrorism. You call us 'liberal extremists'? Why, because we expose people like you.
Learn to think for yourself before it is too late.

You guys are not even liberal extremists, infact you guys are borderline fascists.

Why?

Because you can't differentiate justice from injustice. you can't differentiate between right or wrong. and you can't acknolwedge other's rights. you have no sense of morality and ethics.

Yet you still want to ride on the liberal bandwagon without knowing anything about it.

Bash the mullahs. bash the beard. bash the hijab. bash anything that remotely seems or sounds religious. cause apparently they're somehowe the reason for the downfall of Pakistan. the piss poor mullahs with no political or economic power. causing all sorts of economic political social corruption in the country. Rightttttt....

dimwits

 

[kugga]

and now what all the liberals think about Qadri ?? should he be hanged ?? I asked this questions because many among the liberals are against death penalties...

 

[FreekiN]

All the one's killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and also through drone attacks inside pakistan are killed by liberals... The liberals want to put their system on to others they want to put their theories of life on to others and they do it by hook or by crook... The world has now become a hell just because of those liberals extremists who just want to live and want others to live like what liberals think...

Now don't come with an argument that liberals (The American Liberals) attacked Iraq because of WMD's and Afghanistan because of Osama coz this is just a lame excuse you don't invade a country for just a man....

You don't know what a liberal is, do you?

Those wars were started by Republicans, again, Conservatives.

and now what all the liberals think about Qadri ?? should he be hanged ?? I asked this questions because many among the liberals are against death penalties...

He should be hanged for treason.

 

[Meengla]

@Firefighter,
I read your last post above with a sense of sadness. Sadness that one of my fellow Pakistanis--especially one with ready access to modern technology, means of knowledge, surrounded by citizens of one of the most peaceful countries in the world, can be so ignorant and hateful.
No where you will find me ANYWHERE in this entire forum supporting ban on hijabs or beards or supporting even the aggression against Iraq (which was, as pointed out, a 'conservative' war). But you, on the other hand, comes here and say that the killer of Taseer as 'pure Sufi' and the death of Taseer as 'good riddance'.
I just wonder why you felt so compelled to say the hateful things? May be you visited some other Pakistani blogspace with like minded people and got charged up. But you came to the wrong forum after that.
You have thoroughly exposed yourself above and you cannot hide what you have written above. An apology to the people of Pakistan may be a start of your redemption.

 

[pak-marine]

@Firefighter,
I read your last post above with a sense of sadness. Sadness that one of my fellow Pakistanis--especially one with ready access to modern technology, means of knowledge, surrounded by citizens of one of the most peaceful countries in the world, can be so ignorant and hateful.
No where you will find me ANYWHERE in this entire forum supporting ban on hijabs or beards or supporting even the aggression against Iraq (which was, as pointed out, a 'conservative' war). But you, on the other hand, comes here and say that the killer of Taseer as 'pure Sufi' and the death of Taseer as 'good riddance'.
I just wonder why you felt so compelled to say the hateful things? May be you visited some other Pakistani blogspace with like minded people and got charged up. But you came to the wrong forum after that.
You have thoroughly exposed yourself above and you cannot hide what you have written above. An apology to the people of Pakistan may be a start of your redemption.

well pointed ... what is more surprising is these people live in the west ,if given oppourtunity they dont want to move back to Pakistan yet they support extremists and fundos in Pakistan.

Its like they really dont give a cr*p about the average guy in Pakistan and what he/she are going through but rather support extermism and fundamentalist to satisfy their fake ego ...

 

[Durran3]

well pointed ... what is more surprising is these people live in the west ,if given oppourtunity they dont want to move back to Pakistan yet they support extremists and fundos in Pakistan.

Its like they really dont give a cr*p about the average guy in Pakistan and what he/she are going through but rather support extermism and fundamentalist to satisfy their fake ego ...

Fortunately Canada is still in tact.. Britain on the other hand has become a hell hole because of Islamic Extremists.

 

[pak-marine]

Fortunately Canada is still in tact.. Britain on the other hand has become a hell hole because of Islamic Extremists.

in my general what i have observed in britian is pakistani community is rather isolated what i am not sure about if its the community mind set or a govt initiative .... a very small effort was made to merge different communities .... this has done the most damage , is canada same living style ?

 

[pak-marine]

Dear liberals, speak up!


People whose opinions really matter will stick to what they believe is true.

In my two and a half years in the US, I haven’t met a single Republican. An overwhelming majority of the Americans I have spoken to are apologetic about the drone attacks in Pakistan, were appalled by the “Ground Zero” mosque crisis, despise the Tea Party movement and don’t understand Republicans’ repeated attacks against health care reform.

This category of opinion is in large part echoed by liberal columnists and pundits that we even follow back home. I, therefore, find it interesting to reconcile what I witnessed in the November 2 elections with what I know of my personal experience in US.

It signals the insularity of academic and policy circles clustered in the Northeast, and the vast degree of political polarisation in the US. No matter how many columns Nicholas Kristof writes or how many thousands of liberal voters Stewart and Colbert can gather at the National Mall, when push comes to shove, people whose opinions really matter will stick to what they believe is true.

The failure or rather, the lack of will among liberal pundits to sincerely engage with the public is not limited to the US. While a large number of our English columnists mock the spread of Indian-Zionist conspiracy theories, warn against the return to military rule, rail against the blasphemy law etc, it doesn’t look like they are succeeding in making people who believe Indians and Jews are the problem think otherwise.

It’s true that analysts writing for English newspapers read by less than 10 per cent of Pakistan’s population of 180 million are aiming to change the opinion of policy makers as opposed to the much-touted “man on the street”. But the recent case of Aasia Bibi, I felt, only further highlighted the need for opinions frequently echoed in the country’s capital to trickle down to areas where the vast majority of our country lives.

While appropriate policy interventions at the state level may include curriculum reform, more schools etc, what I’m specifically interested is breaking the insularity of our educated populace. Even individuals who hail from areas where religious minorities are persecuted and girls are discouraged from going to school, and change their minds, are reluctant to go back. While this phenomenon is not unique to Pakistan, it’s still worth noting.

A PhD candidate conducting research on the National Outreach Programme (NOP) in LUMS noted that majority of the scholars from underrepresented regions had no intention of going back to their home towns and villages.

Rather, they were looking for employment within multinational corporations based in Dubai and Karachi. Since pursuit of economic opportunity is a decision that is both personal and in majority of the cases, necessary, we will leave that aside for now. But space still exists for dialogue across economic and social classes. Although many will dismiss blogs and Facebook as also being too exclusive, what they’re doing in terms of generating conversations between individuals who otherwise would have never met is monumental.

Greater emphasis on the Urdu and local press, public universities, adoption of the Teach for America model and pushing students in the Islamabad-Lahore-Karachi circle to intern and volunteer anywhere else within this country maybe starting points for pushing the dialogue out of the blogosphere. Even if these strategies for “exchange” fail to push forward “liberal opinion” so to speak, what’s more important is that they may be a small step towards weakening barriers within a jarringly stratified society.

 

[Meengla]

The radicalized overseas Pakistanis are especially dangerous for Pakistan's interests. Think through and realize what kind of damage is/can be done to Pakistan because of them.
Already, the college town where I live in the States, it was sad to see NOT ONE Pakistani students enrolling in a major university of 16,000+ for last Fall semester. Pakistan's flag was missing in the lawn where there were lists of students from the world-over. It was heart breaking but predictable.
And if these radicalized expats follow the route of that Faisal Shehzad then prepare for internment camps, expulsions, xenophobia, loss of remittance, limitations to access to knowledge and technology, defense of what is still defensible in Pakistan by the expats. Just think through.

 

[FireFighter]

Boy.. you even beat the BATMAN.. where are you from? where do you live? from your use of internet it seems you are educated.. but your post is shocking.

My post is shocking because you're mentally fixated to a set of extreme secular ideals that are incompatible with both liberal and democratic values that demand morally upright and just political leaders in societies.

And Why does any of the personal questions you raised above matter to this discussion?

Have you seriously given a thought to that?

you are endorsing the murder of Taseer by his association with Zardari? have you just given a free pass to murder everyone Zardari even associated with?
how about I use the guilty by association charge on you?

ST was one of Zardari's biggest asset. ST knew zardari inside out, more than everyone of us on the board. About his corruption, his wrongdoings, his affairs, his criminal activities, etc. But still, he choose to represent his master Zardari, the biggest criminal in Pakistan apart from Nawaz and MQM Altaf mafia's. Now what does this tell you about ST? If he had any shame or credibility or ethical values in him, would he have still represented Zardari??



This is an issue of ethics and morality. If you really want to follow Secularism, i have no problem with that. none at all. but don't be a hypocrite, follow it fully in letter and spirit. Follow those that are ethical and credible leaders. Look at the example of Barack Obama, probably the best leadership example there is out there. No criminal cases against him, no kids born out of wedlock, never been to jailed, never involved in any tax scandals, etc etc etc


You seem to belong to some petty Think Tank but clearly thinking isn't one of your skills. Might I add reading isn't either it seems.

It seems that you learned English only to parrot around fancy words to others without knowing what they really mean and entail, you know how the elites talk down to their subservient slave chokidaars that are locked to the gates for eternity, to show how educated and capable they are?

Even you fail at that.

you are a Pakistani right? and taseer was also a Pakistani. have you been to Punjab?
Taseer was the governer of Punjab.. hence you should be hunted down and slapped silly untill you pass out.

then taught a lesson of life and respect for other fellow human beings.

Now you want to come down and slap me for having a different opinion about your criminal oppressive mafia govn't? Lol Seriously, get a life!!!

You're resorting to questioning my patriotism and my identity Just because I called out ST a monster thug, a henchmen of Zardari?

Seriously get a grip man.

Thanks for proving my point, you have confessed your extremism and intolerance right here.

You my friend are so damn insecure and afraid of other's opinions.

Altaf, Zardari, Nawaz, etc these are all corrupt oppressive criminal thugs. JI and Fazl ain`t angels either.

Imran Khan is the only credible person out there. He built Pakistan hospitals, schools, and dedicated his entire life to the people of the country. Now fi you have any self-worth and respect...go out there and support him.

Now.

 

[FireFighter]

@Firefighter,
I read your last post above with a sense of sadness. Sadness that one of my fellow Pakistanis--especially one with ready access to modern technology, means of knowledge, surrounded by citizens of one of the most peaceful countries in the world, can be so ignorant and hateful.
No where you will find me ANYWHERE in this entire forum supporting ban on hijabs or beards or supporting even the aggression against Iraq (which was, as pointed out, a 'conservative' war). But you, on the other hand, comes here and say that the killer of Taseer as 'pure Sufi' and the death of Taseer as 'good riddance'.
I just wonder why you felt so compelled to say the hateful things? May be you visited some other Pakistani blogspace with like minded people and got charged up. But you came to the wrong forum after that.
You have thoroughly exposed yourself above and you cannot hide what you have written above. An apology to the people of Pakistan may be a start of your redemption.

Qadri was a pure Sufi because he stood his ground after committing the murder whereas terrorists run away after committing acts of terror.

Qadri turned himself in voluntarily after committing murder.

Qadri accepted and took responsibilty of his crime. Terrorists run away and hide ...just like after they attacked the SL cricket team.

Qadri is ready to face the law and punishment. And he should be punished i believe. Terrorists don't believe in the laws of the land....let alone punishment.

And no, this is no defence of Qadri's criminal murder.

Qadri must have been personally hurt by Taseer`s remarks that triggered such a violent response from him. None of us know details of their interaction.


Imagine if Tasser or any Governer disrespects his body guard`s mother? Sister? or any close relative? and then the body guard takes the law into his own hand and shoots him dead?

Now would that be considered a terrorist activity? or would that be a criminal murder?

Just because his beard and appearance and the fact that he committed a criminal act of the worst kind, all of these secularists are ready to brand him a terrorist when in fact what he has done is a criminal activity.


What he has done is terrible wrong and never justifiable. Vigilante crime is dispicable to say the least. Law should never be taken into ones hands.

These things show extreme polarisation in society. When the educated secularists can't differentiate between a terrorist from a criminal, and can't comprehend the underlying reasons that breed those criminal and terrorist activities in the country. hunger, poverty, malnourishment, disrespecting the poor, slavery, etc. and to top it all the corrupt evil mafia political parties that live luxury life at the expense of those poor.

When the leadership is so busy looting the wealth of the country day and night, people are dying inthe streets due to poverty and hunger, and suddenly to sway public opinions, these corrupt and deceptive monsters become the guardians of human rights of minorities and go to extremely lenghts to change public opinons about their corrupt existence.


Why should people show any remorse to the death of these corrupt mafia men that are hell bent on oppressing them economically and socially to begin with?

 

[Developereo]

The failure or rather, the lack of will among liberal pundits to sincerely engage with the public is not limited to the US.

The problem in Pakistan is that the people loudly criticising the Islamists have never had any credibility with the masses to begin with, because they never wanted it, preferring instead to look down their noses at the Urdu speaking majority masses.

These nattering nabobs (nawabs) of negativism are always first in line to blame Pakistan for everything. This 'blame Pakistan first' crowd, consisting of people like Hoodbhoy, NFP, Cyril Almeida, Asma Jehangir, etc., have a visceral agenda against the Pakistan army/ISI and, sometimes, even the judiciary. Their views on most issues are predicable to the letter, and usually coincide with Western/Indian propaganda.

I can't think of a single mainstream figure who has street cred on both sides of the aisle except Imran Khan and, predictaly, the chattering classes don't like Imran either.

Go figure...

 

[pak-marine]

Who are the liberal extremists?




During Musharraf’s rule, the term ‘liberal extremists’ was invented and extensively used. He himself, on occasion, said that both religious and liberal extremists are harmful for the country. The term was never defined. It was a political statement made to appease the religious right; saying that the government is not only targeting religion but is also against the ultra-modern and westernised section of society.

Middle class morality is dominant in our society. The standards of morality reflect a mindset and are not necessarily related to financial status. Numerous rich families follow and practice morals and values akin to middle class morality. At the same time, there are people from the middle class who are liberal and rational in their views and conduct. Education, in this country, does not guarantee clear thinking; it only imparts knowledge in particular areas and subjects and teaches students how to read and write. People on the internet, who support and condone the murder of Salmaan Taseer, have basic formal education. People with middle class morality standards are convinced that their lifestyle and values are the only right ones and all others are evil. They invent, and are strong believers of, conspiracy theories. For every wrong done, some foreign power or agency is held responsible. The morality circle they draw, keeps on expanding. They are now leading a lifestyle that they could not even imagine adopting in the 70s and the 80s.

Progressive political parties like the PPP, the ANP, the MQM and the nationalist parties always poll more votes as compared to religious political parties, but they remain under the pressure of radical elements, rejected by the masses. They dare not touch the laws enacted during Zia’s rule. All efforts are made to appease the clergy. Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani is scared of calling Salmaan Taseer a ‘shaheed’, and even announced that no proposal to amend the blasphemy law is being considered by the government.


In a democracy, all citizens have the right to their own views, even if these are beyond the norms of society in general. They are entitled to express these views, provided they do not hurt the beliefs of others and impose these through use of force, or advocate violence against those who do not agree with their viewpoint. The radicals have been using violence to impose their viewpoint on others, but no political party or social group advocates liberal extremism in this country. There has been no incident of violence reported where liberals have forced conservatives to follow their lifestyle. The known liberals are reluctant to make their views public out of fear of backlash from the radicals. There is no militant liberal organisation existing. So, who are the liberal extremists?

Published in The Express Tribune, January 14th, 2011.

 

[Abdi-Karim Elmi]

Correct.

There is no proof of Taseer's 'corruption'--even his opponents don't blame him for that. Taseer helped out after the Floods; he generated much economic activity. He, who had limited resources and role as a governor, did his best but these fanatics and their keyboard jihadis continue to parrot the same lines. And, NO, for the millionth time, Taseer said nothing against Islam; Blasphemy Law is a man-made law and all Taseer asked was for refinement to prevent abuse of the Law.

This guy lives in Canada and yet is so insulated from modern thought and ideas of tolerance. Hard to say if this guy's celebration of Taseer's murder is more scary or cruel or stupid. Probably all in equal measure.

Before it gets too late these Pakistani expat fanatics should be rounded up and made to go through some rigorous psychological profiling; failure in that they be shipped back to their mullah-land. Let's see how much they will enjoy that. Otherwise, they will continue to bring shame to other Pakistanis. No more political correctness.

OMG we have the same problem with expats in Europe with regard Turkey