Terrorists in saffron by Swami Agnivesh

[padamchen]

This is why Tamilians like @letsrock are uber cool. Know how to rile up bhagwas 10/10 sans any effort.

You concentrate on bhayyas man.

Tamilians be like aliens to you.

Watch bully kutta videos posted by @waz last night for clarity.

Cheers, Doc

 

[-=virus=-]

This is why Tamilians like @letsrock are uber cool. Know how to rile up bhagwas 10/10 sans any effort.

surely you jest

an angry loon is how us bhagwa crowd views him, best kept locked up in a cage.

to never come and discuss in good faith and to always come out snappy and biting everyone in sight.. a very very dumb low iq low eq person, this @letsrock character

he's never rocked, he doesn't know the first thing about rocking, a pathetic person.. bullied in school maybe.. no idea..

 

[Cliftonite]

surely you jest

an angry loon is how us bhagwa crowd views him, best kept locked up in a cage.

to never come and discuss in good faith and to always come out snappy and biting everyone in sight.. a very very dumb low iq low eq person, this @letsrock character

he's never rocked, he doesn't know the first thing about rocking, a pathetic person.. bullied in school maybe.. no idea..

Nope. He challenges your UC bhagwa privilege. He comes across as very Dravidian nationalist meets Dalit Panther and I find it quite refreshing honestly.

 

[Cherub786]

Why burn bridges? As if Muslims in India aren't secluded enough?

Dalits, Sikhs, Xtians and non savarna minorities are the closest things to allies IMs can have in India. Plus many Dalits are open to Islam because of their bad experience with Hinduism.

I swear, sometimes Muslims are their own worst enemies. Exclusionary, paranoid and unwilling to work with anyone else.

You're right we shouldn't burn bridges with potential allies against Hindutva. But from an academic perspective it is valid to criticize Ambedkar. Consider also that these days many Dalits are being converted to RSS ideology, which has an effective outreach program for them. They are starting to swell the ranks of RSS and other right-wing Hindu orgs. Remember that Hindutva ideology is actually against rigid caste system, it isn't synonymous with orthodox Brahminism or Varnashram Dharm.

Likewise, when it comes to Sikhs not all of them are our allies. Some Sikhs are also part of the Hindutva ideology. Remember for the longest time Akali Dal was in alliance with BJP.

That leaves Christians and the Leftists. Christians are quite weak in India. As for Leftists, again, I think it's totally valid to criticize them academically and ideologically and that shouldn't mean we can't co-operate with them politically to protect our rights and secularism

 

[Cliftonite]

But from an academic perspective it is valid to criticize Ambedkar.

Ambedkar had thoughts on Islam similar to most atheists and Marxists. People not born into Islam aren't obviously going to see Islam in the light Muslims see it.

He had equally scathing views on Hinduism. Muslims must reach out to Dalits.

Likewise, when it comes to Sikhs not all of them are our allies. Some Sikhs are also part of the Hindutva ideology. Remember for the longest time Akali Dal was in alliance with BJP

Sikhs are still closer to Muslims than Hindus are.

The Sikhs were kicked out of West Punjab by Muslims. Guru Nanak's birthplace and death place are both in West Punjab.

Muslims have been very exclusionary to other communities. Our fight is with Hindus, not the others. I even see potential of an alliance between Muslims and Xtians of Northeast India

 

[Cherub786]

Ambedkar had thoughts on Islam similar to most atheists and Marxists. People not born into Islam aren't obviously going to see Islam in the light Muslims see it.

He had equally scathing views on Hinduism. Muslims must reach out to Dalits.

Sikhs are still closer to Muslims than Hindus are.

The Sikhs were kicked out of West Punjab by Muslims. Guru Nanak's birthplace and death place are both in West Punjab.

Muslims have been very exclusionary to other communities. Our fight is with Hindus, not the others. I even see potential of an alliance between Muslims and Xtians of Northeast India

As for Ambedkar, it's not just his biased views against our Religion and Community. I recently corresponded with an Indian gentleman and he informed me that Ambedkar wanted all Muslims to migrate to Pakistan, he wanted a total transfer of population. That doesn't sound very secular to me. He also informed me Ambedkar regretted the Constitution he had the biggest hand in drafting. If you read Ambedkar in many respects he's quite similar to Savarkar.

Sikhs are in between Muslims and Hindus. But at the end of the day, they lean closer to Hindus than they do to us. I'm not against a political understanding with Sikhs to resist Hindutva.

I believe Indian Muslims should not support any separatist or anti-national cause in India, be it the Christians of Nagaland, other separatist groups in the Northeast, the Naxalites or even the Kashmiri separatists. That will only serve to stigmatize Muslims further. Indian Muslims should follow Owaisi's lead, that includes Kashmiris. Owaisi is the best hope for Muslims.

 

[Baibars_1260]

As for Ambedkar, it's not just his biased views against our Religion and Community. I recently corresponded with an Indian gentleman and he informed me that Ambedkar wanted all Muslims to migrate to Pakistan, he wanted a total transfer of population. That doesn't sound very secular to me. He also informed me Ambedkar regretted the Constitution he had the biggest hand in drafting. If you read Ambedkar in many respects he's quite similar to Savarkar.

In fact Ambedkar was similar to M.S. Golwalkar
Check out the thread below where Ambedkar has been discussed

Indian Activist speaks about rampant caste bias among the Indian diaspora in the United States.

Correct! 👍 suyog chavan won't accept references to scriptures. Ambedkar has made specific references to the scriptures in every one of his writings and that was dismissed for lack of understanding . When I mentioned the case of Shambhuka and the perils of adwijas trying to learn the scriptures...

defence.pk

Ambedkar on Islam:
(Note: This is one of his milder rants. He basically states that no Muslim can be loyal to India because of his faith, which is basically what Golwalkar says].

". ... For Islam divides as inexorably as it binds. Islam is a close corporation and the distinction that it makes between Muslims and non-Muslims is a very real, very positive and very alienating distinction. The brotherhood of Islam is not the universal brotherhood of man. It is the brotherhood of Muslims for Muslims only. There is a fraternity, but its benefit is confined to those within that corporation. For those who are outside the corporation, there is nothing but contempt and enmity. The second defect of Islam is that it is a system of social self-government and is incompatible with local self-government because the allegiance of a Muslim does not rest on his domicile in the country which is his but on the faith to which he belongs. To the Muslim ibi bene ibi patria is unthinkable.
Wherever there is the rule of Islam, there is his own country. In other words, Islam can never allow a true Muslim to adopt India as his motherland and regard a Hindu as his kith and kin. That is probably the reason why Maulana Mahomed Ali, a great Indian but a true Muslim, preferred to be buried in Jerusalem rather than in India."
In other words Hindus and Muslims can never live together and all Muslims are traitors ( terrorists? ) . Which is exactly what Golwalkar says. Except that Golwalkar goes further and defines the rules for Muslims to live in India .

Sikhs are in between Muslims and Hindus. But at the end of the day, they lean closer to Hindus than they do to us. I'm not against a political understanding with Sikhs to resist Hindutva.

Agree, for Indian Muslims to bank on Sikh sympathy beyond a certain point is idiotic. That goes for Dalits too.

I believe Indian Muslims should not support any separatist or anti-national cause in India, be it the Christians of Nagaland, other separatist groups in the Northeast, the Naxalites or even the Kashmiri separatists. That will only serve to stigmatize Muslims further.

Agree. None of the separatist movements in India including Kashmir cares what happens to Indian Muslims. The backlash from Kashmir has affected Indian Muslims horribly even though Indian Muslims have not supported secession of Kashmir . Far more Indian Muslims die in communal pogroms each year than Kashmiris killed by Indian security forces.

Indian Muslims should follow Owaisi's lead, that includes Kashmiris. Owaisi is the best hope for Muslims.

Now here I must differ with you.
If Owaisi is the best face the Indian Muslims can present then Indian Muslims are doomed. Indian Muslims need international support by presenting a liberal, secular westernized face similar to Jinnah. The skull cap, beard and pajamas don't cut it either internationally or domestically ( beyond the filthy by-lanes of Charminar) .
Indian Muslims should look for a liberal educated secular face preferably a young female. Unfortunately there no such persons there. Shehla Rashid is parochial focused only on Kashmir and Mota Bhai has hounded out Rana Ayyub to Dubai.
For a glorious 60 seconds Rana Ayyub was on CNN speaking out against the Delhi riots in February.
She made an impression... for 60 seconds before being forgotten.

 

[Cherub786]

Now here I must differ with you.
If Owaisi is the best face the Indian Muslims can present then Indian Muslims are doomed. Indian Muslims need international support by presenting a liberal, secular westernized face similar to Jinnah. The skull cap, beard and pajamas don't cut it either internationally or domestically ( beyond the filthy by-lanes of Charminar) .
Indian Muslims should look for a liberal educated secular face preferably a young female. Unfortunately there no such persons there. Shehla Rashid is parochial focused only on Kashmir and Mota Bhai has hounded out Rana Ayyub to Dubai.
For a glorious 60 seconds Rana Ayyub was on CNN speaking out against the Delhi riots in February.
She made an impression... for 60 seconds before being forgotten.

Owaisi has accomplished quite a bit for the Muslims of Hyderabad. The recent success of AIMIM in Bihar's legislative state elections is proof that Indian Muslims are beginning to see him as their national leader. The secular parties, namely Congress, but also others, have totally failed to do anything for Muslims in the face of this Hindutva juggernaut.

Also, the Indian Muslim issue is not at the level of being an international concern (unlike the Uighur genocide in China). Neither does the international community care if Muslims are represented by a skullcap wearing Muslim man or a young attractive female. To think that such cosmetic things have an impact in the world of international politics is quite naive.

Finally, these so called liberal young women of our community do not understand our issues. They live in a bubble of their own. When Qaid-e-Azam became the leader of the Muslims he transformed his huliya. He started wearing sherwani and karakul topi. He started offering namaz and giving speeches at mosques. The pirs and sajjada nashins of Punjab were instrumental in spearheading the Pakistan movement in that province. Without enthusiastic support from such charismatic religious figures I don't think Punjabi Muslims would have backed the Pakistan movement.

Finally, despite his appearance, Owaisi is a liberal, secular and above all highly educated Muslim leader.

 

[Cliftonite]

Finally, these so called liberal young women of our community do not understand our issues. They live in a bubble of their own. When Qaid-e-Azam became the leader of the Muslims he transformed his huliya. He started wearing sherwani and karakul topi. He started offering namaz and giving speeches at mosques. The pirs and sajjada nashins of Punjab were instrumental in spearheading the Pakistan movement in that province. Without enthusiastic support from such charismatic religious figures I don't think Punjabi Muslims would have backed the Pakistan movement.

I'm sorry to say but you sound like you're victim to some severe cognitive dissonance (no offence intended). On one hand, you call for recognition of Israel, espouse pro American stances and want secular values.

On the other hand, you praise hateful preachers and want a very traditional orthodox Sunni application of Islam and want to kick non Sunni and non Muslim minorities out of Pakistan. Is the irony completely lost on you? Love thy oppressor thing going on with you?

 

[Cherub786]

I'm sorry to say but you sound like you're victim to some severe cognitive dissonance (no offence intended). On one hand, you call for recognition of Israel, espouse pro American stances and want secular values.

On the other hand, you praise hateful preachers and want a very traditional orthodox Sunni application of Islam and want to kick non Sunni and non Muslim minorities out of Pakistan. Is the irony completely lost on you? Love thy oppressor thing going on with you?

I don't want to kick out anyone from Pakistan. And which hateful preacher have I praised?

I consider myself an orthodox Sunni Muslim, though I respect the great Muslim reformer and imam whose photo I recently put on my profile.

Politically I am liberal but socially and culturally I am conservative. I am a huge fan of Owaisi, but don't always agree with his every political policy.

When it comes to geopolitics I confess I am totally pro-West, pro-America, pro-British and pro-Israel. The alternative is to support the competing bloc led by China and Russia.

 

[Cliftonite]

because the allegiance of a Muslim does not rest on his domicile in the country which is his but on the faith to which he belongs. To the Muslim ibi bene ibi patria is unthinkable

The attitude of Muslims around the world seems to lend some credence to this statement.

You see Iranian Mullahs spend all their energy for a tiny piece of land on the West Bank of the Jordan river, instead of tending to their country. Turkey seems to have followed on that path.

You see Pakistanis as the prime example of this phenomena. Let's keep Palestine aside. The average Pakistani is more incensed by Australian forces attacking Afghans in Kabul than he is about Sunni proxies killing Hazara Shias in Quetta. If we were to take a poll, most Pakistanis here would feel more strongly for Srinagar than Sheikhupura.

I consider myself an orthodox Sunni Muslim, though I respect the great Muslim reformer and imam whose photo I recently put on my profile.

Interesting. Being from the Ahmadi community and now an Orthodox Sunni, you would know that the people responsible for the plight of the Ahmadis are mostly the Orthodox Sunnis. So why would you still want to subscribe to that.

I don't want to kick out anyone from Pakistan

Your comments about Hazaras and Hindus. Even the Ismaili people from Gilgit Baltistan. I'd expect it from a majoritarian Orthodox Wahhabi or Barelvi but not from someone who is from a minority community themselves.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Finally, these so called liberal young women of our community do not understand our issues. They live in a bubble of their own. When Qaid-e-Azam became the leader of the Muslims he transformed his huliya. He started wearing sherwani and karakul topi. He started offering namaz and giving speeches at mosques

Jinnah, switched his dress and image only in the last two years of his life. His sister was a dentist ( rare profession for females at that time) usually wearing western dresses. Both Jinnah and his sister wore western clothes for most of their lives.

Unfortunately times have changed.
The sajjada nashins and gaddi nashins are no longer relevant.
Indian Muslims need an international image to speak forcefully on their plight just as Winnie Mandela spoke out on international media against White Apartheid rule. It's a question of substance and optics both.
See the video below. Rana wont win a beauty contest but she certainly speaks far more eloquently than Owaisi.

 

[letsrock]

Of course it's clear where I stand.

Even Pakistanis and Indians who hate me will agree to that.

Life is too short to be defensive about what you say.

It's like potty. The more you keep it inside, the more only you suffer.

Cheers, Doc

Nothing more dreary / depressing than talking to a typical bloodline obsessed racist indian. I guess thats your thing though.

This is why Tamilians like @letsrock are uber cool. Know how to rile up bhagwas 10/10 sans any effort.

THanks bro. THough to be honest i am not a tamilian.

Its fairly easy to rile up those scum - just be a decent man - thats all. This bhagwa ideology primarily comes from brahmins (and allies like magi) who form 1-3% of indian population. Now when you are that tiny of population and claimed yourself to be a god on earth then quiet logically you tend to be paranoid and narcissistic about yourself. Bhagwas rely on seeding confusion and playing one against others - dalits vs muslims, muslims vs west. Because they are such a small percentage and rely on leeching resources of others for their benefit it is extremely worrying for them if they see masses being decent, nice to each other and questioning thier BS. Because the game is up.

 

[Cherub786]

Interesting. Being from the Ahmadi community and now an Orthodox Sunni, you would know that the people responsible for the plight of the Ahmadis are mostly the Orthodox Sunnis. So why would you still want to subscribe to that.

Your comments about Hazaras and Hindus. Even the Ismaili people from Gilgit Baltistan. I'd expect it from a majoritarian Orthodox Wahhabi or Barelvi but not from someone who is from a minority community themselves.

Well I'm an orthodox Sunni theologically and in terms of religious practice, that doesn't mean I agree with the politics of our religious leadership. In fact, I believe our religious leadership is largely corrupt. So I am both orthodox and reformist in a sense.

I want the Hazara, but also all other Afghan refugees in Pakistan, repatriated back to Afghanistan.
I never said I want to remove the Ismailis from Pakistan, but I said that there should be a policy of promoting settlement into Gilgit-Baltistan from mainstream Pakistani society to dilute the demographics, that is the best way to combat potential separatist tendencies there.

Jinnah, switched his dress and image only in the last two years of his life. His sister was a dentist ( rare profession for females at that time) usually wearing western dresses. Both Jinnah and his sister wore western clothes for most of their lives.

Unfortunately times have changed.
The sajjada nashins and gaddi nashins are no longer relevant.
Indian Muslims need an international image to speak forcefully on their plight just as Winnie Mandela spoke out on international media against White Apartheid rule. It's a question of substance and optics both.
See the video below. Rana wont win a beauty contest but she certainly speaks far more eloquently than Owaisi.

How can someone like Rana Ayyub be our leader? A woman wearing sleeveless and short skirts? God forbid. Even the Hindus will laugh at us.

یہ مسلماں ہیں جنہیں دیکھ کے شرمائیں یہود

No, the answer is to stick with a respectable Muslim man, someone who is educated but simultaneously grounded in our identity, culture and Faith. That's the only kind of leader the Muslims will respect and follow. In fact, many of these feminist Muslim girls will work against our interests. They will want to put an end to Muslim Personal Law. They will speak out against pardah and traditional gender roles. Communal pogroms are bad but they aren't our only issue, no is it the most pressing issue.

You say Jinnah altered his image in the last years of his life. Well that was the period in his life when he got widespread acceptance from the Muslims. Before that Muslim League was totally weak.

 

[Cliftonite]

Communal pogroms are bad but they aren't our only issue, no is it the most pressing issue.

Communal pogroms aren't the most pressing issue, traditional gender roles and niqab are.

Lmao. No wonder Muslims are in this situation. A case of misplaced priorities if there ever was one