Tejas, an Indian Air Force light combat aircraft (File)Indian Air Force Jets Slated to Have Beyond-V

[Han Patriot]

You dont need either wiki or indian sources,check newspaper archives from 1967 of international outlets.
There was no' strategic intent ',chinese fired first we retaliated.We limited it to Nathu La because -
1.Thats where skirmish took place 2.We ahve artillery advantage there due to our guns being on reverse slope and height advantage.You dont understand basic facts,you have minimal actual knowledge of things and rant like a child .That is your problem.

Can you show me those 'international outlets'? So how did you count the Chinese bodies? You go over the border and pile it up and then you count it one by one? I have seen guesstimates ranging from 30, 100, 300, and now a 'few' hundred. A 300:30 kill rate is a 10:1 kill ratio, that's Hanuman strength bhai. . According to Chinese sources, that was just a skirmish and the death tolls on both sides was in single units, so how did a conflict where no Chinese were trying to conquer any land in undisputed territory end up killing hundreds? Imagine this was true, that somehow India became Hercules, what did India achieved strategically? What territory did you capture? What territory did China try to capture?

Can you tell me what artillery you were using in 1967 and the range? Which location where those guns located? What advantage was it? No sane Indian politician is even quoting this shit vis a vis China. This is just for domestic consumption to boost your ego genius. What 'facts' are you saying? How do you prove these facts on something that happened 50 years ago when your generals were still wearing diapers.

Then why buy s-400,why buy su-35?Many of your missiles still use russian seekers or licensed copies.
Powerful,yes.If nuclear capability is considered ofcourse russia is 2nd most powerful.Financially you are 2nd most powerful -but you are dependant on export to usa and europe.Technologically you are not in the league of the west.

Why can't we buy SU-35 or S-400? how do we know where we stand if there is no benchmark? SU-35 is for the thrust vectoring engines, we develop a similar engine, but the performance needs a benchmark, is it weaker, it is better, who knows. The Russians are already expecting us to copy, that's why the price tag, think of it as a TOT. Let's just say we are not spoon fed like the Indians, reverse engineering is an art. Look at the pathetic TOT effort by India, even after so much spoon feeding, they took 5 years to translate the freaking Russian manual.

Btw, are you sure our seekers are 'licensed Russian seekers'?. Somehow I think you have better intelligence than the CIA.

When I talk about the second most powerful nation, I am talking about Comprehensive National Power, that's how we measure military, economical, and technological strength.


1) Russia is practically bankrupt. Except for nuclear missiles, their navy and air force is pathetic.
2) Exports constitute only around 10% of our GDP. Check the latest figure bhai.
3) Europe is advanced in certain technologies but their military is divided into a few countries. There are military technologies that they don't possess.
4) Overall, China is the second most powerful nation in terms of CNP.

Can't even build proper engines.The europeans didn't build stealth because they didn't perceive the need in 1990s when eurofighter and rafale were designed.French-germans just got together for a new stealth plane.None of the european states require or have large carriers so why would they need EMALS.Their electronics and manufacturing quality is waaay ahead of china.You really comparing german products with chinese stuff?

In this world, only Russia and USA can build high thrust turbofans. The Europeans are more advanced in certain engine technologies but not the thrust. China had already built 400+ WS-10A with higher thrust, whether they are reliable to European standards is another issue, this is where we can learn and improve. So don't think European fart smells like perfume just because yours smell like fermented curry.

Whether they can or cannot build stealth, EMALS, quantum comm is not the essence of our debate. I am telling you THEY DON'T HAVE A STEALTH FIGHTER, EMALS or quantum comm. Don't use the Indian future performance matrix on Europe. Can, could, shall, would is future tense. Whether they need or don't need a carrier is also not the debate, the debate is whether they HAVE a carrier.

You have a few ships in IOR?So what?IN could sink them at will if war broke out.They are in international waters,not within indian waters.If they come within indian waters they will be sunk.So what do you want?For us to start a war by randomly attacking ships in international waters for which whole world will condemn us?Do you even understand the concept of international waters ,or just brainless trolling?

A few ships is 14 VESSELS. This is just for starters, 14 VESSELS are there with no base support, imagine when there are bases in Gwadar and Djibouti, how many ships do you think will be there? You think only you have missiles? Our ships will just sit there and let you sink them?.

Djibouti had just been commissioned, next will be Gwadar, look at the location bro, it's a pincer on all your trading and energy lines. We produce more than a dozen vessels in a year, we can practically create the whole Indian Navy in 5 years, and this includes commissioning time, where do you think we would put those new shiny ships?

What mobilization?Not a single chinese division has moved into Tibet.Stop jumping up and down at every bit of quasi propaganda.We have set our terms for diplomacy.We will withdraw,if roadbuilding is stopped.Simple.Return to staus quo.There will be no withdrawal without end to roadbuilding.Our terms.Till then we are sitting in 'your' territory.PLA cant do anything .

Try learning Mandarin, you might be surprise what you can learn.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Can you show me those 'international outlets'? So how did you count the Chinese bodies? You go over the border and pile it up and then you count it one by one? I have seen guesstimates ranging from 30, 100, 300, and now a 'few' hundred. A 300:30 kill rate is a 10:1 kill ratio, that's Hanuman strength bhai. . According to Chinese sources, that was just a skirmish and the death tolls on both sides was in single units, so how did a conflict where no Chinese were trying to conquer any land in undisputed territory end up killing hundreds? Imagine this was true, that somehow India became Hercules, what did India achieved strategically? What territory did you capture? What territory did China try to capture?

Can you tell me what artillery you were using in 1967 and the range? Which location where those guns located? What advantage was it? No sane Indian politician is even quoting this shit vis a vis China. This is just for domestic consumption to boost your ego genius. What 'facts' are you saying? How do you prove these facts on something that happened 50 years ago when your generals were still wearing diapers.


Why can't we buy SU-35 or S-400? how do we know where we stand if there is no benchmark? SU-35 is for the thrust vectoring engines, we develop a similar engine, but the performance needs a benchmark, is it weaker, it is better, who knows. The Russians are already expecting us to copy, that's why the price tag, think of it as a TOT. Let's just say we are not spoon fed like the Indians, reverse engineering is an art. Look at the pathetic TOT effort by India, even after so much spoon feeding, they took 5 years to translate the freaking Russian manual.

Btw, are you sure our seekers are 'licensed Russian seekers'?. Somehow I think you have better intelligence than the CIA.

When I talk about the second most powerful nation, I am talking about Comprehensive National Power, that's how we measure military, economical, and technological strength.


1) Russia is practically bankrupt. Except for nuclear missiles, their navy and air force is pathetic.
2) Exports constitute only around 10% of our GDP. Check the latest figure bhai.
3) Europe is advanced in certain technologies but their military is divided into a few countries. There are military technologies that they don't possess.
4) Overall, China is the second most powerful nation in terms of CNP.


In this world, only Russia and USA can build high thrust turbofans. The Europeans are more advanced in certain engine technologies but not the thrust. China had already built 400+ WS-10A with higher thrust, whether they are reliable to European standards is another issue, this is where we can learn and improve. So don't think European fart smells like perfume just because yours smell like fermented curry.

Whether they can or cannot build stealth, EMALS, quantum comm is not the essence of our debate. I am telling you THEY DON'T HAVE A STEALTH FIGHTER, EMALS or quantum comm. Don't use the Indian future performance matrix on Europe. Can, could, shall, would is future tense. Whether they need or don't need a carrier is also not the debate, the debate is whether they HAVE a carrier.


A few ships is 14 VESSELS. This is just for starters, 14 VESSELS are there with no base support, imagine when there are bases in Gwadar and Djibouti, how many ships do you think will be there? You think only you have missiles? Our ships will just sit there and let you sink them?.

Djibouti had just been commissioned, next will be Gwadar, look at the location bro, it's a pincer on all your trading and energy lines. We produce more than a dozen vessels in a year, we can practically create the whole Indian Navy in 5 years, and this includes commissioning time, where do you think we would put those new shiny ships?


Try learning Mandarin, you might be surprise what you can learn.

They are easily available on the net,just search.On the other thread you wanted multiple articles on engines in high altitudes as well as american intelligence papers,i indulged you.I spent time to dig them out and posted.Then you disappeared from the thread.Now you do some work yourself,a simple look at time magazine archives will be good.I don't have all day to spend check the internet for obscure articles just because you lack basic knowledge.
The artillery used at nathu la were 25 pounders.It was a shootout skirmish - a static battle,not a battle to conquer territory.Do you even understand the difference?

None of that changes the fact that you claim to be technologically 2nd most powerful,yet need planes,missiles,engines and seekers from russia.Who are you kidding?First time i am hearing this self invented term - comprehensive national power.
Its simple - Economically,yes you are the 2nd most powerful(but still debt ridden and export dependant)
Militarily - Russia with thousands of nuclear warheads is ahead in many respects,so your claim is contestable.
Soft power -Chinese soft power is certainly not as good as the west.It is infact often prtrayed as a threat and bully.
China was world's largest exporter between 2013 and 2015,and earned 2 trillion in exports in 2016.So yes without exports your economy with a huge debt-gdp ratio is bust.They don't have supercarriers because they don't need them(except britain whose new carrier is far superior to chinese),why would they produce technology that will be of no use.You have comprehension issues?

Most of these 14 vessels are support ships.You can move around freely in IOR without base support because IN is not sinking your ships in international waters and because in peacetime tehse ships can sail into any neutral port and be refueled and restocked with food.In wartime that doesn't happen.
As to gwadar and djibouti - more daydreaming.To have 'pincers' you need to have actual fleets stationed in these ports on a permanent basis.Like US 7TH Fleet with supercarrier,SSN,cruisers and destroyers.You have nothing.Nothing in these ports.Just nothing.They are refuel ports atm,nothing more.And in wartime to reach these ports your ships will have sail accross the entire indian landmass where they will be sitting ducks to attacks from 3 dimensions.We have complete dominance over IOR and can sink your tankers at will,atm.Only USN can dislodge us,you are helpless - can only do some peacetime PR activities,nothing more.In 2 weeks your economy will crash due to blockade.There is nothing PLAN can do in IOR atm and it knows it.Maybe in 15-20 years you can hope to challenge us.It doesn't matter how many ships you build,you need to both logistically supply them faraway from home,create proper doctrine,train crews and most of all all of those things still won't negate the disadvantage of terrain.Andaman is the key to the IOR,our unsinkable carrier.These can be supported by land based aircraft and missiles from south India.All our bases are very nearby to the battlezone.Yours are thousands of miles away,its a one way trip for your ships.So instead of bragging about imaginery capabilities,please wake me up when PLAN can actually get a non-noisy SSN and send 3-4 CBGs into IOR.Until then we hold your economy hostage(and USN to a far greater extent in case you ever fight them in a seperate war over taiwan),and your government knows it.(thats why desperate reduction in army size in favour of navy and airforce)

 

[SingaporeGuy]

 

[Han Patriot]

They are easily available on the net,just search.On the other thread you wanted multiple articles on engines in high altitudes as well as american intelligence papers,i indulged you.I spent time to dig them out and posted.Then you disappeared from the thread.Now you do some work yourself,a simple look at time magazine archives will be good.I don't have all day to spend check the internet for obscure articles just because you lack basic knowledge.
The artillery used at nathu la were 25 pounders.It was a shootout skirmish - a static battle,not a battle to conquer territory.Do you even understand the difference?

Yah, everything is easily available according to you, I have a dozen Indian news outlet quoting the same wiki source. Can you give me a source that says Indian won the 'WAR' and killed X numbers of Chinese? I did not see any AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE PAPERS btw, on tank engines. To reduce my reading time, you might as well summarize it and quote it. Don't use the 'bombard you with 50 pages' tactics Indians normally employ when they lose an argument. Writing 20 page essays with gazillion pictures without going to the main point is called diversion.

Can you provide them? I disappeared? I practically answered every single of your post, you can link me there and we can start the debate again if I missed out.

What model of gun was used, where was it located, how many did it killed, back it with facts and source. I can say to you now that Chinese used 1000 pounders and we killed 1000 Indians. You believe that? OK, I don't understand because I was not born in 1967 and I suspect neither did you. Please provide a neutral non-Indian source that describes this 'war' showing the following:

1) Outcome
2) Numbers killed
3) Equipment used
4) An analysis of the battle, etc

None of that changes the fact that you claim to be technologically 2nd most powerful,yet need planes,missiles,engines and seekers from russia.Who are you kidding?First time i am hearing this self invented term - comprehensive national power.

Please provide a source we are buying Russian seekers from Russia. As far as I know we are only buying
1) SU-35
2) S-400
3) Engines.

Do we produce comparable weapons? Yes we do, we need these weapons to study and benchmark, does it mean we don't have the technological capability? If you look at it closely, we only need engines, S-400 was just a bench marking missile. My statement is still correct, overall, militarily, technology and economically, Russia cannot match us.

Its simple - Economically,yes you are the 2nd most powerful(but still debt ridden and export dependant)
Militarily - Russia with thousands of nuclear warheads is ahead in many respects,so your claim is contestable.
Soft power -Chinese soft power is certainly not as good as the west.It is infact often prtrayed as a threat and bully.

Check the word IIP and understand the current position of all major nations. Our debt is in YUAN. Can you provide me the official source of how big is our overall debt is? Don't give me Western guesstimates. Again, I repeated this many times, check the contribution of exports to Chinese GDP.

China was world's largest exporter between 2013 and 2015,and earned 2 trillion in exports in 2016.So yes without exports your economy with a huge debt-gdp ratio is bust.They don't have supercarriers because they don't need them(except britain whose new carrier is far superior to chinese),why would they produce technology that will be of no use.You have comprehension issues?

Genius, do you understand economics? You need foreign trade to earn foreign exchange to pay FOREIGN DEBT, what has it got to do with DOMESTIC DEBT denominated in YUAN?

Most of these 14 vessels are support ships.You can move around freely in IOR without base support because IN is not sinking your ships in international waters and because in peacetime tehse ships can sail into any neutral port and be refueled and restocked with food.In wartime that doesn't happen.
As to gwadar and djibouti - more daydreaming.To have 'pincers' you need to have actual fleets stationed in these ports on a permanent basis.Like US 7TH Fleet with supercarrier,SSN,cruisers and destroyers.You have nothing.Nothing in these ports.Just nothing.They are refuel ports atm,nothing more.

OK, use some common sense, out of 14 ships, how many do you think are support ships, what do you mean by 'most'? Do you have an exact figure or again it's your guesstimate? So the Chinese are having 12 replenishment ships to 2 attack vessels?. Wow, this Indian math is amazing.

Yup, the Chinese got two bases, and we are just gonna fill it up with replenishment ships. In the future, we would have 20 replenishment ships and 4 attack vessels. No worries bhai. .

And in wartime to reach these ports your ships will have sail accross the entire indian landmass where they will be sitting ducks to attacks from 3 dimensions.We have complete dominance over IOR and can sink your tankers at will,atm.Only USN can dislodge us,you are helpless - can only do some peacetime PR activities,nothing more.In 2 weeks your economy will crash due to blockade.There is nothing PLAN can do in IOR atm and it knows it.

Let me repeat, at the moment, with no base, there are 14 'declared' vessels. What do you think will happen in 5 years?

The Chinese ships are armed with plastic missiles, we are gonna sit there and let you shoot us. In war time, the first place to attack is An & Nic, and with two operational bases flanking Indian supply, you touch our stuff, we blow up Indian stuff.

Maybe in 15-20 years you can hope to challenge us.It doesn't matter how many ships you build,you need to both logistically supply them faraway from home,create proper doctrine,train crews and most of all all of those things still won't negate the disadvantage of terrain.Andaman is the key to the IOR,our unsinkable carrier.These can be supported by land based aircraft and missiles from south India.All our bases are very nearby to the battlezone.Yours are thousands of miles away,its a one way trip for your ships.So instead of bragging about imaginery capabilities,please wake me up when PLAN can actually get a non-noisy SSN and send 3-4 CBGs into IOR.Until then we hold your economy hostage(and USN to a far greater extent in case you ever fight them in a seperate war over taiwan),and your government knows it.(thats why desperate reduction in army size in favour of navy and airforce)

Wow, I can sense an in-secured tone here. . Yes, nothing will happen, we won't build ships and send them out, the bases will be just 'replenishment' bases, no radars, no aircraft, no missiles whatsoever. China is just a cute panda, harmless and soft.

 

[Centurion2016]

I HAVE TO AGREE with our Pakistani posters LCA at present has been fairly close to a disaster,

The plane itself has shortcoming of under powered engine and lack of range.

The biggest issue is the inability of india to step up production to a ;point that is forms a crucial element of the IAF fighter fleet in a suitable time. IAF needed 100 Tejas in service by now .
IAF needed to have mark 2 in FOC by now
IAF needed AMCA programme up and running ready for first flight by 2020

ITS TOO LATE

but THEIR CAN BE NO TURNING BACK.

INDIA wants to be a major aerospace power so it will painful and slow. BUT one day they will get to the points I refer too.

PROBALY 20 YEARS later than today

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Yah, everything is easily available according to you, I have a dozen Indian news outlet quoting the same wiki source. Can you give me a source that says Indian won the 'WAR' and killed X numbers of Chinese? I did not see any AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE PAPERS btw, on tank engines. To reduce my reading time, you might as well summarize it and quote it. Don't use the 'bombard you with 50 pages' tactics Indians normally employ when they lose an argument. Writing 20 page essays with gazillion pictures without going to the main point is called diversion.

Can you provide them? I disappeared? I practically answered every single of your post, you can link me there and we can start the debate again if I missed out.

What model of gun was used, where was it located, how many did it killed, back it with facts and source. I can say to you now that Chinese used 1000 pounders and we killed 1000 Indians. You believe that? OK, I don't understand because I was not born in 1967 and I suspect neither did you. Please provide a neutral non-Indian source that describes this 'war' showing the following:

1) Outcome
2) Numbers killed
3) Equipment used
4) An analysis of the battle, etc





Please provide a source we are buying Russian seekers from Russia. As far as I know we are only buying
1) SU-35
2) S-400
3) Engines.

Do we produce comparable weapons? Yes we do, we need these weapons to study and benchmark, does it mean we don't have the technological capability? If you look at it closely, we only need engines, S-400 was just a bench marking missile. My statement is still correct, overall, militarily, technology and economically, Russia cannot match us.


Check the word IIP and understand the current position of all major nations. Our debt is in YUAN. Can you provide me the official source of how big is our overall debt is? Don't give me Western guesstimates. Again, I repeated this many times, check the contribution of exports to Chinese GDP.


Genius, do you understand economics? You need foreign trade to earn foreign exchange to pay FOREIGN DEBT, what has it got to do with DOMESTIC DEBT denominated in YUAN?




OK, use some common sense, out of 14 ships, how many do you think are support ships, what do you mean by 'most'? Do you have an exact figure or again it's your guesstimate? So the Chinese are having 12 replenishment ships to 2 attack vessels?. Wow, this Indian math is amazing.

Yup, the Chinese got two bases, and we are just gonna fill it up with replenishment ships. In the future, we would have 20 replenishment ships and 4 attack vessels. No worries bhai. .



Let me repeat, at the moment, with no base, there are 14 'declared' vessels. What do you think will happen in 5 years?

The Chinese ships are armed with plastic missiles, we are gonna sit there and let you shoot us. In war time, the first place to attack is An & Nic, and with two operational bases flanking Indian supply, you touch our stuff, we blow up Indian stuff.


Wow, I can sense an in-secured tone here. . Yes, nothing will happen, we won't build ships and send them out, the bases will be just 'replenishment' bases, no radars, no aircraft, no missiles whatsoever. China is just a cute panda, harmless and soft.

You essentially are saying you are incapable of reading defence papers,yet feel qualified to confidently rant on defence issues on a defence forum.Look back to my post on that thread.I even pointed out read pg 193 onwards for 10 pgs on china's reorganization.I posted 4 more links for precise ORBATs.But ofcourse you don't even understand that.Its not my fault if you don't understand technical evaluation paper,i admit the engine one may be a bit difficult but you have to take the time to understand it ,otherwise don't comment on it.It is very simple -only comment on something you have a basic knowledge about at least.Otherwise know your role and shut your mouth.

My statement is correct as well.Economically you are superior.Technologically in civil technology ,yes.In military technology ,not yet.You look at the new yasen class submarine and you look at the noisy ssn of PLAN,the topol-m is probably the best ICBM in the world,the s-400/500,the armata tank,the new EW vehicles like krashukha-4 they have used in syria and ukraine which gave usa a shock,In conventional military,yes(due to numbers and funds).In overall military ,no.Because the russian military doctrine is based on mass use of tactical nuclear warheads from the beginning of a large conflict.And its strategic arsenal dwarfs that of china.

Debt is debt.Huge internal debt means its essentially a big bubble based speculation which is inherently unstable.What do you think will happen in a war,especially if economy and oil supplies get shut down - major risk of economic collapse.Your own government people know it.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...gdp-and-could-be-fatal-says-government-expert

You can't blow up stuff,because you have to come to the IOR.First to enter the IOR you have to run the gauntlet of andaman,we will have complete air dominance over the region by basing fighter bombers in the island chain.The land based radar and sonars survey the whole area,can be used for patrol aircraft as well as cheap recon drones and provide targeting information for the brahmos on our surface ships or submarines,or a coastal brahmos battery.Such a battery with 450-600 km range would immediately lock on your fleet entering the area even before your ships have any idea where these attacks are coming from.You are blind,we are not.We airlift 1 s-400 battery into andaman and your carrier aircraft will be shot down even as they are trying to take off from their carrier.

Now you will have waves of aircraft from andaman and squadrons from south india raining brahmos,kh-31 and harpoons on you.From the coast you have brahmos raining on you.From the sea surface you have our own carrier and its aircraft attacking you,along with the massive indian surface fleet with hundreds of brahmos,klubs and kh-25.From underwater you have our diesel submarines(which can operate easily in friendly waters unlike yours thousands of miles away,wher only yuan can operate and even then one way trip essentially)launching klubs,harpoons,exocets and torpedoes at you.You will be assaulted from 4 different angles,where will your ships run to.The russians believe 24 brahmos/yakhont salvo is enough to break through the defences of an american CBG,thats debatable.But 64 certainly is the upper saturation limit.What will your ships do when hundreds of tehse rain down on them from all angles and dimensions?It will be a massacre.
Xi knows your navy is incapable of protecting chinese economic interests against blockade and thus now desperately trying to increase it in size by downsizing army.

Lets say somehow you make it past andaman with some forces.Now you are even more screwed.You fleet is now trapped between andman in its back and eastern and southern india with the main defences and bases of the Indian navy in front of it.You are caught between the 2 and attacked from front and rear from all 3 dimensions -land,air,sea.There is no escape.Oh and don't worry,just to reach gwadar ,forget djibouti you have to get past eastern command and then finally escape - to face western command with asia's largest naval base Karwar ,and mumbai,kochin assaulting you.Lakshadeep on your flank for more pain.You just have nowhere to move or do anything in IOR.So its better you understand where you stand.Our navy can sink chinese shipping at will in IOR.Only rescue for you,maybe send an SOS signal to USN based in diego garcia to the far south.Beg them for shelter there to save you from annihilation at the hands of IN,maybe they will be feeling merciful .

 

[SingaporeGuy]

You essentially are saying you are incapable of reading defence papers,yet feel qualified to confidently rant on defence issues on a defence forum.Look back to my post on that thread.I even pointed out read pg 193 onwards for 10 pgs on china's reorganization.I posted 4 more links for precise ORBATs.But ofcourse you don't even understand that.Its not my fault if you don't understand technical evaluation paper,i admit the engine one may be a bit difficult but you have to take the time to understand it ,otherwise don't comment on it.It is very simple -only comment on something you have a basic knowledge about at least.Otherwise know your role and shut your mouth.

My statement is correct as well.Economically you are superior.Technologically in civil technology ,yes.In military technology ,not yet.You look at the new yasen class submarine and you look at the noisy ssn of PLAN,the topol-m is probably the best ICBM in the world,the s-400/500,the armata tank,the new EW vehicles like krashukha-4 they have used in syria and ukraine which gave usa a shock,In conventional military,yes(due to numbers and funds).In overall military ,no.Because the russian military doctrine is based on mass use of tactical nuclear warheads from the beginning of a large conflict.And its strategic arsenal dwarfs that of china.

Debt is debt.Huge internal debt means its essentially a big bubble based speculation which is inherently unstable.What do you think will happen in a war,especially if economy and oil supplies get shut down - major risk of economic collapse.Your own government people know it.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...gdp-and-could-be-fatal-says-government-expert

You can't blow up stuff,because you have to come to the IOR.First to enter the IOR you have to run the gauntlet of andaman,we will have complete air dominance over the region by basing fighter bombers in the island chain.The land based radar and sonars survey the whole area,can be used for patrol aircraft as well as cheap recon drones and provide targeting information for the brahmos on our surface ships or submarines,or a coastal brahmos battery.Such a battery with 450-600 km range would immediately lock on your fleet entering the area even before your ships have any idea where these attacks are coming from.You are blind,we are not.We airlift 1 s-400 battery into andaman and your carrier aircraft will be shot down even as they are trying to take off from their carrier.

Now you will have waves of aircraft from andaman and squadrons from south india raining brahmos,kh-31 and harpoons on you.From the coast you have brahmos raining on you.From the sea surface you have our own carrier and its aircraft attacking you,along with the massive indian surface fleet with hundreds of brahmos,klubs and kh-25.From underwater you have our diesel submarines(which can operate easily in friendly waters unlike yours thousands of miles away,wher only yuan can operate and even then one way trip essentially)launching klubs,harpoons,exocets and torpedoes at you.You will be assaulted from 4 different angles,where will your ships run to.The russians believe 24 brahmos/yakhont salvo is enough to break through the defences of an american CBG,thats debatable.But 64 certainly is the upper saturation limit.What will your ships do when hundreds of tehse rain down on them from all angles and dimensions?It will be a massacre.
Xi knows your navy is incapable of protecting chinese economic interests against blockade and thus now desperately trying to increase it in size by downsizing army.

Lets say somehow you make it past andaman with some forces.Now you are even more screwed.You fleet is now trapped between andman in its back and eastern and southern india with the main defences and bases of the Indian navy in front of it.You are caught between the 2 and attacked from front and rear from all 3 dimensions -land,air,sea.There is no escape.Oh and don't worry,just to reach gwadar ,forget djibouti you have to get past eastern command and then finally escape - to face western command with asia's largest naval base Karwar ,and mumbai,kochin assaulting you.Lakshadeep on your flank for more pain.You just have nowhere to move or do anything in IOR.So its better you understand where you stand.Our navy can sink chinese shipping at will in IOR.Only rescue for you,maybe send an SOS signal to USN based in diego garcia to the far south.Beg them for shelter there to save you from annihilation at the hands of IN,maybe they will be feeling merciful .

Actually, you need more lateral thinking.

China can easily move troops through south east asia countries by which they are allies of.

In fact, if i remember correctly, india has zero allies in southeast asia.

your defenses at andaman island can be easily taken out with cruise missiles from thailand, or type 55 destroyers can just fire missiles from south china sea.

the problem with india's military is not just technology and numbers when compared with china.

India's military lack courage.

China can easily blockage india especially with 5x more submarines.

The defense spending of india only the same as france.

Everyone knows who's the weaker party here.

No doubt, it has to be India

 

[Han Patriot]

You essentially are saying you are incapable of reading defence papers,yet feel qualified to confidently rant on defence issues on a defence forum.Look back to my post on that thread.I even pointed out read pg 193 onwards for 10 pgs on china's reorganization.I posted 4 more links for precise ORBATs.But ofcourse you don't even understand that.Its not my fault if you don't understand technical evaluation paper,i admit the engine one may be a bit difficult but you have to take the time to understand it ,otherwise don't comment on it.It is very simple -only comment on something you have a basic knowledge about at least.Otherwise know your role and shut your mouth.

Erm, genius, we are talking about the 1967 WAR references here not the current ORBAT in Tibet. WAKE UP! Take some coffee. Btw I answered your post already in the other thread.

My statement is correct as well.Economically you are superior.Technologically in civil technology ,yes.In military technology ,not yet.You look at the new yasen class submarine and you look at the noisy ssn of PLAN,the topol-m is probably the best ICBM in the world,the s-400/500,the armata tank,the new EW vehicles like krashukha-4 they have used in syria and ukraine which gave usa a shock,In conventional military,yes(due to numbers and funds).In overall military ,no.Because the russian military doctrine is based on mass use of tactical nuclear warheads from the beginning of a large conflict.And its strategic arsenal dwarfs that of china.

1) Economically second.
2) Naval and air force size second
3) Technological capability, almost on par with Russia, ahead of Europe in some dept, and behind in some dept.
4) You think we don't have DF-41s?
5) Armata? Can you tell me how much more advance it is compared to T-99A2, btw, what makes you think we don't have technologies Armate has? You can only go that far for tanks.
6) S-400 is a benchmarking missile, HQ10 is comparable.

Btw, we are talking about the overall strength here, economically, militarily (size), technology. We beat Russia in economics, military size and technology is almost on par. Overall China is second, do you beg to differ?

Debt is debt.Huge internal debt means its essentially a big bubble based speculation which is inherently unstable.What do you think will happen in a war,especially if economy and oil supplies get shut down - major risk of economic collapse.Your own government people know it.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...gdp-and-could-be-fatal-says-government-expert

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...gdp-and-could-be-fatal-says-government-expert
Bubble like bubble gum? How huge is HUGEEEEEE? I had been asking you for official debt figures from China, until today you haven't answered me. You are quoting from Guardian based on guesstimates. Btw, do you know the function of debt? Do you know why it is important to denominate debt in your own currency? Do you know China can practically print Yuan as long as inflation is under control? India cannot do this because of her weak fundamentals, the moment they print rupee, their inflation shoots up, this is not happening in China because we are a surplus economy, we produce more than we consume. You OTOH is a deficit economy, if you print money, your inflation explodes. This is the difference, and the reason why we can build so much shiny infrastructure like cakes. This is the power of having the world's largest manufacturing base.

In war time, you think we won't shut down your oil supplies with bases in Gwadar and Djibouti? Do you have any other alternative oil routes other than the Persian gulf? Do you know we have another CAR and Russian oil route precisely for this reason? And look at our Strategic Oil Reserves, I recommend you reading the Chinese effort and compare it to India. We started almost around the same time, I remember it was a year after we announced it, the Indians got panicky and reacted to do their own, always reactive to China, I have no idea why. China reacts to US, you react to China, why can't you follow the best, why copy Chinese efforts.

You can't blow up stuff,because you have to come to the IOR.First to enter the IOR you have to run the gauntlet of andaman,we will have complete air dominance over the region by basing fighter bombers in the island chain.The land based radar and sonars survey the whole area,can be used for patrol aircraft as well as cheap recon drones and provide targeting information for the brahmos on our surface ships or submarines,or a coastal brahmos battery.Such a battery with 450-600 km range would immediately lock on your fleet entering the area even before your ships have any idea where these attacks are coming from.You are blind,we are not.We airlift 1 s-400 battery into andaman and your carrier aircraft will be shot down even as they are trying to take off from their carrier.

We can blow up stuff from Lhasa and Yunnan, followed on by a naval fleet. Why do we need to enter IOR first? Are you dumb or something? OOO right Brahmos again, Why? Because you don't have long range cruise missiles..... And you think we can't blow up stuff from our 052Ds/055s before entering IOR?

Now you will have waves of aircraft from andaman and squadrons from south india raining brahmos,kh-31 and harpoons on you.From the coast you have brahmos raining on you.From the sea surface you have our own carrier and its aircraft attacking you,along with the massive indian surface fleet with hundreds of brahmos,klubs and kh-25.From underwater you have our diesel submarines(which can operate easily in friendly waters unlike yours thousands of miles away,wher only yuan can operate and even then one way trip essentially)launching klubs,harpoons,exocets and torpedoes at you.You will be assaulted from 4 different angles,where will your ships run to.The russians believe 24 brahmos/yakhont salvo is enough to break through the defences of an american CBG,thats debatable.But 64 certainly is the upper saturation limit.What will your ships do when hundreds of tehse rain down on them from all angles and dimensions?It will be a massacre.
Xi knows your navy is incapable of protecting chinese economic interests against blockade and thus now desperately trying to increase it in size by downsizing army.

Before shouting Hanuman, check the distance between Mainland India to A&N and the distance between Yunnan to A&R. Btw, you do realize we have access to the same P-800 Oniks right? You think you are the only one with aircrafts and missiles? We actually manufacture them in bulk, what happens when you run out of missiles? Import again? How long? 12 months?

Who says we want to invade India, it is to provide enough deterrent to ensure you don't screw with us when shit happens in the Himalayas. If you go all out using your whole air force to attack Chinese fleet, you think we won't retaliate from Mainland area? Delhi is near the border. So remember when shit happens in the Himalayas, localized it there, if you try to be funny, our fleet in Gwadar and Djibouti will also give you a spank. If that isn't enough, our bigger fleet will attack A&R, and if you involve your mainland, we will involve ours too.

Check how many sub you have and how many subs we have? You can't even manufacture simple conventional subs. How many SSNs you have? Our SSNs are comparable to 1980s Russian subs, that's the older generation, don't forget we have 093G. So if you go all out, it will be WWIII, you ready for that? Remember the strategic intent is to prevent you guys from doing a blockade on our supply routes and limit the escalation to the Himalayas. You screw our ships, our fleet in Djibouti and Gwadar will screw yours, this is chess. With this in place, we can fight a local war in Himalayas which you will most probably lose.

 

[UKBengali]

@Han Patriot

Why do you think that Russia is still ahead of China?

J-20 is in service and that is far better than the PAK-FA which is yet to come out.

Type-95 SSN could easily be at least as good as Yasen class.

Avionics and radars, China is in the lead.

Even in engine tech, China may have just about caught up.

 

[Han Patriot]

@Han Patriot

Why do you think that Russia is still ahead of China?

J-20 is in service and that is far better than the PAK-FA which is yet to come out.

Type-95 SSN could easily be at least as good as Yasen class.

Avionics and radars, China is in the lead.

Even in engine tech, China may have just about caught up.

Genius here won't believe we are ahead, to him European fart smells like perfume, Chinese fart smells like fermented tofu.

 

[UKBengali]

Genius here won't believe we are ahead, to him European fart smells like perfume, Chinese fart smells like fermented tofu.

Two reasons from where I stand:

1. Inferiority complex with whites - Asians simply cannot be as good as whites in their minds.
2. Jealousy that China is so much ahead of India now.

 

[Han Patriot]

Two reasons from where I stand:

1. Inferiority complex with whites - Asians simply cannot be as good as whites in their minds.
2. Jealousy that China is so much ahead of India now.

Agree, in their mind, China should be as shitty as them and cannot be better than the whites their real masters. You can see this mentality whenever we talk about war, they will say US will do that and this, they will never say we will face China and fight like a man. They always have this protectorate mentality.

 

[abp94]

I remember Tejas and how they were going to tilt the balance towards IAF, and make PAF useless, and how Indian members on this forum were saying that our work on the JF-17 would never complete........

So many years on, Indians are still saying the same things, while we are exporting to different countries

 

[Nabil365]

Agree, in their mind, China should be as shitty as them and cannot be better than the whites their real masters. You can see this mentality whenever we talk about war, they will say US will do that and this, they will never say we will face China and fight like a man. They always have this protectorate mentality.

No point arguing with them.They can't even feed their soldiers forget about combat.
Just throw the Chinese noodles at your border,you'll see them leaving their weapons and arriving with plates to beg for food.

 

[Han Patriot]

I remember Tejas and how they were going to tilt the balance towards IAF, and make PAF useless, and how Indian members on this forum were saying that our work on the JF-17 would never complete........

So many years on, Indians are still saying the same things, while we are exporting to different countries

How many Tejas are operational, none have BVR now right, it's only available in 2018 or 2019? This effort is rather pathetic if you ask me.

No point arguing with them.They can't even feed their soldiers forget about combat.
Just throw the Chinese noodles at your border,you'll see them leaving their weapons and arriving with plates to beg for food.

I heard similar stories, is the situation really that bad? They seriously lack organizational skills, imagine if a real war kicks in, everyone will panic and go into arguing mode.