Su-30MKI - Super Sukhoi Upgrade Program.

[sankar]

I cheer for any accomplishment by other countries, no matter how small, as long as it is not at the cost of China. While Tejas is not the best jet fighter in the world, it is the result of hard working Indians. It is the hard work that earns respect. Of course, I will stop praising the moment it starts to shoot at Chinese.

Nice conversation, Fair enough.

 

[knight11]

su30mki coupled with brahmos will be our one of the most important strategic weapon system.this will be the first time iaf will get true deep penetration capability.

question-is there plane of integrating brahmos with naval mig29?

Answer is airlaunch Brahmos - NG, which is smaller, lighter and could be carried not only by the MKI, but other fighter planes like Mig-29, and 29K.

Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?

Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?

Hearing from sources that Israel after offering India their 2052 AESA with GaA modules for different jets upgrade programs (LCA MK1A, Jaguars and later Mirages), they have proposed to make the GaN AESA through a JV with India.

Elta's offer, however, came with the condition that at least one more fighter in the IAF's inventory should field the ELM-2052 AESA radar. To sweeten the deal, Elta offered to work jointly with HAL on an improved version of the ELM-2052.

This was a win-win for both Elta and HAL. "Look at the market HAL provides Elta. The 61 Jaguars being upgraded to DARIN-3 would all be fitted with the ELM-2052. At least 100 Tejas would get the improved version, possibly with more to follow. Meanwhile, 50 IAF Mirage-2000 fighters are being upgraded, but with a manual radar that could become obsolescent quickly. So the improved AESA could eventually equip the Mirage fleet too,adding up to 200-plus radars," says Raju.(Chmn HAL)

The latest twist in the story is that they have proposed the upgraded GaN AESA for Super Sukhoi MLU program. The backend software help will be provided by Israel only. Israel has cited that recent technology development it has done for its cutting edge F35 customization has enabled it to have a 360 degree viewing day and night assimilation which can be integrated to the pilots cockpit for MKI upgrade.

This technological leap has stumped IAF and MOD as they were expecting a sensor fusion upgradation package from Russia for Super program and a further step up in the same sensor fusion in their coveted 5th Gen FGFA/PAKFA program.

Israel had asked for ZERO cost for development or time for GaN AESA radar development and has indicated its strongest desire to have the JV and participate in Make In India program.

IAF chief Raha, DM MP both has requested PM NaMo to have a further discussion with the Russian counterparts in their December Summit and seek out whats there in the radar and sensor fusion package to have a comparison, cost and benefit analysis. Since Su 30 MKI has already french and israeli tech, the possibility of having this upgrade from Israel is actually very tempting.

The source says

"From 200 GaA AESA add 350 GaN AESA (MKI eventually will reach 350 with an additional tranche prepared to order beyond 272) and minimum of 100+ RBE 2 AESA all under 5th gen jets implies IAF is potentially looking at 700 AESA equipped jets. With 5th Gen birds and their AESA tech eventually with retirement also of some birds, IAF is looking at minimum of 800-850+ AESA equipped jets. They key now is time bound decision making and implementation. The face of IAF can be changed to a far more destructive lean and mean force in a short time if we get this done"

Source: Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?

 

[Echo_419]

bcos we are not used to getting praise for tejas from non-indian especially on pdf.

Looks like he is an undercover Indian agent pretending to be Indian

I cheer for any accomplishment by other countries, no matter how small, as long as it is not at the cost of China. While Tejas is not the best jet fighter in the world, it is the result of hard working Indians. It is the hard work that earns respect. Of course, I will stop praising the moment it starts to shoot at Chinese.

I understand
Wink wink

 

[nang2]

Looks like he is an undercover Indian agent pretending to be Indian


I understand
Wink wink

You meant "pretending to be Chinese", right?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

A quick trivia questions:

First question
Most public records in net says India uses Nuke delivery via Mirages and Jaguars.
With the Super 30 upgrade will the upgraded Sukhois will be used for N delivery?
Or will they continue their air superiority role for Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft like Rafales, Mirages, Jags for N Delivery?

The second trivia question
Brahmos NG or say Something similar like ASMP ALCM will be used for high value targets for precision strikes via conventional warheads or augmented for N Strikes via N warhead?

That brings to third question
Will Super 30 upgrade the Su30 MKI A2A skills only or its a program to improve A2G with features like terrain hugging ?(mind you airframe of MKI is not designed for that)

 

[Capt.Popeye]

su30mki coupled with brahmos will be our one of the most important strategic weapon system.this will be the first time iaf will get true deep penetration capability.

question-is there plane of integrating brahmos with naval mig29?

The Brahmos-M will be carried on IN's MiG-29s.

 

[Echo_419]

You meant "pretending to be Chinese", right?

 

[Bharat_Bhakt]

Answer is airlaunch Brahmos - NG, which is smaller, lighter and could be carried not only by the MKI, but other fighter planes like Mig-29, and 29K.

Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?

Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?

Hearing from sources that Israel after offering India their 2052 AESA with GaA modules for different jets upgrade programs (LCA MK1A, Jaguars and later Mirages), they have proposed to make the GaN AESA through a JV with India.

Elta's offer, however, came with the condition that at least one more fighter in the IAF's inventory should field the ELM-2052 AESA radar. To sweeten the deal, Elta offered to work jointly with HAL on an improved version of the ELM-2052.

This was a win-win for both Elta and HAL. "Look at the market HAL provides Elta. The 61 Jaguars being upgraded to DARIN-3 would all be fitted with the ELM-2052. At least 100 Tejas would get the improved version, possibly with more to follow. Meanwhile, 50 IAF Mirage-2000 fighters are being upgraded, but with a manual radar that could become obsolescent quickly. So the improved AESA could eventually equip the Mirage fleet too,adding up to 200-plus radars," says Raju.(Chmn HAL)

The latest twist in the story is that they have proposed the upgraded GaN AESA for Super Sukhoi MLU program. The backend software help will be provided by Israel only. Israel has cited that recent technology development it has done for its cutting edge F35 customization has enabled it to have a 360 degree viewing day and night assimilation which can be integrated to the pilots cockpit for MKI upgrade.

This technological leap has stumped IAF and MOD as they were expecting a sensor fusion upgradation package from Russia for Super program and a further step up in the same sensor fusion in their coveted 5th Gen FGFA/PAKFA program.

Israel had asked for ZERO cost for development or time for GaN AESA radar development and has indicated its strongest desire to have the JV and participate in Make In India program.

IAF chief Raha, DM MP both has requested PM NaMo to have a further discussion with the Russian counterparts in their December Summit and seek out whats there in the radar and sensor fusion package to have a comparison, cost and benefit analysis. Since Su 30 MKI has already french and israeli tech, the possibility of having this upgrade from Israel is actually very tempting.

The source says

"From 200 GaA AESA add 350 GaN AESA (MKI eventually will reach 350 with an additional tranche prepared to order beyond 272) and minimum of 100+ RBE 2 AESA all under 5th gen jets implies IAF is potentially looking at 700 AESA equipped jets. With 5th Gen birds and their AESA tech eventually with retirement also of some birds, IAF is looking at minimum of 800-850+ AESA equipped jets. They key now is time bound decision making and implementation. The face of IAF can be changed to a far more destructive lean and mean force in a short time if we get this done"

Source: Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?

Dont know weather Russia will allow but if somehow we have a Gan based indo israeli AESA radar on MKI then it will be more lethal than Russian air force Su-35's

 

[ANPP]

A quick trivia questions:

First question
Most public records in net says India uses Nuke delivery via Mirages and Jaguars.
With the Super 30 upgrade will the upgraded Sukhois will be used for N delivery?
Or will they continue their air superiority role for Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft like Rafales, Mirages, Jags for N Delivery?

The second trivia question
Brahmos NG or say Something similar like ASMP ALCM will be used for high value targets for precision strikes via conventional warheads or augmented for N Strikes via N warhead?

That brings to third question
Will Super 30 upgrade the Su30 MKI A2A skills only or its a program to improve A2G with features like terrain hugging ?(mind you airframe of MKI is not designed for that)

Miraj used to be India's main nuclear deterrent asset in past. Cannt say about current situation but just see IAF still dont have better plane than miraj for nuclear bomb( even not mki). Offcourse Rafale will replace the miraj for sure. Though IAF do use few prithvi 2 missiles.

Brahmose, a cruise missle, for nuclear delivery....hell no. Brahmose will be used for conventional targets, offcourse high value targets.

MKI upgrades primarily focused on avionics upgrades. That will improve not only A2A performance but also A2G. But will IAF will use these a/c for A2G role will depend on circumstances. Major platform upgrades expect stealth improvement might not happen.

Nowadays, role of fighters is not limited to few areas. It is expected for fighter that it will perform all war time duties. Yes, IAF would like to use mki for air superiority and air cover. But in any unlike condition mki will do ground role also.
As per IAF, they use mki from conventional roles to mini AWACS to even carpet bombing.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Miraj used to be India's main nuclear deterrent asset in past. Cannt say about current situation but just see IAF still dont have better plane than miraj for nuclear bomb( even not mki). Offcourse Rafale will replace the miraj for sure. Though IAF do use few prithvi 2 missiles.

Brahmose, a cruise missle, for nuclear delivery....hell no. Brahmose will be used for conventional targets, offcourse high value targets.

MKI upgrades primarily focused on avionics upgrades. That will improve not only A2A performance but also A2G. But will IAF will use these a/c for A2G role will depend on circumstances. Major platform upgrades expect stealth improvement might not happen.

Nowadays, role of fighters is not limited to few areas. It is expected for fighter that it will perform all war time duties. Yes, IAF would like to use mki for air superiority and air cover. But in any unlike condition mki will do ground role also.
As per IAF, they use mki from conventional roles to mini AWACS to even carpet bombing.

Nicely summed up Sir.. Good to hear the first opinion on this ..

 

[knight11]

Dont know weather Russia will allow but if somehow we have a Gan based indo israeli AESA radar on MKI then it will be more lethal than Russian air force Su-35's

If I am the decission maker than I would simply decline any such offer, because for MKI which have N011M Bars Radar, which is between AESA and PESA, better option is to upgrade this Radar, with AESA Antenna, upgrade the Radar computer and its software which would be more economical plus it will free us hassle for the integration of the Russian weapons which MKI possess.

Miraj used to be India's main nuclear deterrent asset in past. Cannt say about current situation but just see IAF still dont have better plane than miraj for nuclear bomb( even not mki). Offcourse Rafale will replace the miraj for sure. Though IAF do use few prithvi 2 missiles.

For Nuclear dilevery with the fighter plane what is needed is the Hardened avionics aka all the electronics of the fighter plane are shielded from the Nuclear blast impulses. I think Rafale and MKI suits this role pretty much, which could fire nuclear tip cruise missile from strandoff distance. I think 50 MKI should be given to SPF for such role, under the nuclear command fly by IAF pilots.

MKI upgrades primarily focused on avionics upgrades. That will improve not only A2A performance but also A2G. But will IAF will use these a/c for A2G role will depend on circumstances. Major platform upgrades expect stealth improvement might not happen.

Nowadays, role of fighters is not limited to few areas. It is expected for fighter that it will perform all war time duties. Yes, IAF would like to use mki for air superiority and air cover. But in any unlike condition mki will do ground role also.
As per IAF, they use mki from conventional roles to mini AWACS to even carpet bombing.

MKI used for Carpet bombing is the waste of assets and should be given to the Jaguar and MIG-27.

Yes I agree after Super Sukhoi upgrade the MKI would be upgraded to Strike fighter cum Airsuperiority fighter plane. What I heard for the Super Sukhoi upgrade is

1. Aesa for Sure -- Probably Upgraded BARS
2. Internal Virgilus Jammer
3. R-77M -- Long range BVR --max 180 KM
4. BAE Cassidan MAWS
5. OLS-35
6. Streghtening of Airframe to carry 3 Brahmos.
7. KH-34P and other Strandoff Weapons
8. Python-5 WVR
9. Aerial Decoy
10. Upgraded Engine with better MTO and thrust
11. Upgraded Mission Computer, and glass cockpit
12 Dash Helmet
13 RCS reduction.
14. Sensor fussion

Super Sukhoi 30MKI than could perform SEAD, DEAD, Jamming, Ground attack from strandoff weapon, Air superiority.

My wish

1. Air frame strengthening, and Sukhoi Certificate of Low altitute 8G.
2. Tech from PAK FA
3. Weapons developed for PAK FA
4. Superior Computing power with fully integration of Indian Air force Battle Management with real time network with IAF Satellite and network.
5. Superior Sensors and 360 degree Radar, to give full spectrum and sensor fussion.

First question
Most public records in net says India uses Nuke delivery via Mirages and Jaguars.
With the Super 30 upgrade will the upgraded Sukhois will be used for N delivery?
Or will they continue their air superiority role for Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft like Rafales, Mirages, Jags for N Delivery?

I think the nuclear Delivery from fighter plane would be given to 50 Super Su 30MKI which will be under SPF command that will bring the total MKI number in India build to 350.

The second trivia question
Brahmos NG or say Something similar like ASMP ALCM will be used for high value targets for precision strikes via conventional warheads or augmented for N Strikes via N warhead?

For Nuclear Strike Brahmos is totally waste, any stealthy Subsonic cruise missile could delver that weapon because a nuclear explosion is made around few KM in air not on the ground for maximum destruction.
Brahmos NG should be used for the hardened target and high value target.

That brings to third question
Will Super 30 upgrade the Su30 MKI A2A skills only or its a program to improve A2G with features like terrain hugging ?(mind you airframe of MKI is not designed for that)

Aesa Radar have the capability for ground SAR mapping for terrain hugging, but unfortunately MKI is not certify to fly with fuel and weapon load at that terrain hugging low altitute profile by OEM aka Sukhoi, thats why the need for the Rafale. Best we can make Super Sukhoi Su30 MKI as Su 34 Pull back, not Su-24.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

If I am the decission maker than I would simply decline any such offer, because for MKI which have N011M Bars Radar, which is between AESA and PESA, better option is to upgrade this Radar, with AESA Antenna, upgrade the Radar computer and its software which would be more economical plus it will free us hassle for the integration of the Russian weapons which MKI possess.



For Nuclear dilevery with the fighter plane what is needed is the Hardened avionics aka all the electronics of the fighter plane are shielded from the Nuclear blast impulses. I think Rafale and MKI suits this role pretty much, which could fire nuclear tip cruise missile from strandoff distance. I think 50 MKI should be given to SPF for such role, under the nuclear command fly by IAF pilots.



MKI used for Carpet bombing is the waste of assets and should be given to the Jaguar and MIG-27.

Yes I agree after Super Sukhoi upgrade the MKI would be upgraded to Strike fighter cum Airsuperiority fighter plane. What I heard for the Super Sukhoi upgrade is

1. Aesa for Sure -- Probably Upgraded BARS
2. Internal Virgilus Jammer
3. R-77M -- Long range BVR --max 180 KM
4. BAE Cassidan MAWS
5. OLS-35
6. Streghtening of Airframe to carry 3 Brahmos.
7. KH-34P and other Strandoff Weapons
8. Python-5 WVR
9. Aerial Decoy
10. Upgraded Engine with better MTO and thrust
11. Upgraded Mission Computer, and glass cockpit
12 Dash Helmet
13 RCS reduction.
14. Sensor fussion

Super Sukhoi 30MKI than could perform SEAD, DEAD, Jamming, Ground attack from strandoff weapon, Air superiority.

My wish

1. Air frame strengthening, and Sukhoi Certificate of Low altitute 8G.
2. Tech from PAK FA
3. Weapons developed for PAK FA
4. Superior Computing power with fully integration of Indian Air force Battle Management with real time network with IAF Satellite and network.
5. Superior Sensors and 360 degree Radar, to give full spectrum and sensor fussion.

As usual bro, you come out with some good data..

Air frame strengthening for low altitude will require extensive modification.. especially since airframe is already getting reinforced perhaps for a CM under Belly like Brahmos as of now and later the Brahmos A or Mini which is suppose to be smaller and MKI can carry 3 in numbers.

But Bars does have one serious flaw. The Terrain avoidance mode is not there as compared to a Su34 radar and airframe optimised for low altitude missions. Then again MKI is a Air Superiority beast and Russia clearly has other A2G mission optimised birds like Su34s...
The niip site does not talk about terrain following/avoidance at all
Radar control system "BARS" for Su-30MKI, Su-30MKA, Su-30MKM fighters

Sensor fusion and a upgraded internal EW suite can be a good breakthrough coupled with say a new BMS as defined by you..

BTW any idea of timelines for Super upgrade..

I think the nuclear Delivery from fighter plane would be given to 50 Super Su 30MKI which will be under SPF command that will bring the total MKI number in India build to 350.

If its not a CM like Brahmos with N warhead, then i am assuming it would be a N bomb free fall drop types right? Now why would you like a flanker with highest RCS announcing its arrival carrying a free fall type mission?
Wont it make more sense to let a DPSA handle that and let all MKIs do air superiority to protect the package and since the package delivery requires hardened mode the choices are limited is nt it?
On top the terrain hugging or low altitude flying is not a key choice for MKIs.

 

[knight11]

But Bars does have one serious flaw. The Terrain avoidance mode is not there as compared to a Su34 radar and airframe optimised for low altitude missions. Then again MKI is a Air Superiority beast and Russia clearly has other A2G mission optimised birds like Su34s...
The niip site does not talk about terrain following/avoidance at all
Radar control system "BARS" for Su-30MKI, Su-30MKA, Su-30MKM fighters

That is not called flaw, rather that Mode was not available/needed. N011M in MKI got its full capability i.e Ground mapping in 2010.
When we talk about the Radar its mostly software and we actually see i.e hardware is just 20% (Mechanism to create beam and sensors to read the return) and rest 80% is the software, so lot of computation is required at the background for different mode simultaneously and the full capability of Bars N011M is highly confidential, thats why IAF always used it in training mode during friendly exercise with other nations.

All Aesa have the capability of mapping the ground in big spectrum which is needed to make the image of the terrain for the terrain avoidance, terrain hugging, low altitude profile. For doing low profile, radar avoidance profile you would also need high quality sensors, and its sensors fussion like SPECTRA EW Suite.

For N. attack you would also need NAV attack device on board on the birds nose -- For IAF its available with MKI, Mirrage 2000 UPG, and Jaguar presently.

Sensor fusion and a upgraded internal EW suite can be a good breakthrough coupled with say a new BMS as defined by you..

That is the need of the present and future confrontation which will be high intensity, short duration clash.
With Super Sukhoi EW upgradation will be designed by DARE which includes EADS/Cassidian MAWS, SAAB tech RWS, LWS, Virgilus Internal Jammer, Upgraded HAL/Edgewood Mission Computer aka SPECTRA for MKI.

BTW any idea of timelines for Super upgrade..

2017 onwards

If its not a CM like Brahmos with N warhead, then i am assuming it would be a N bomb free fall drop types right? Now why would you like a flanker with highest RCS announcing its arrival carrying a free fall type mission?
Wont it make more sense to let a DPSA handle that and let all MKIs do air superiority to protect the package and since the package delivery requires hardened mode the choices are limited is nt it?
On top the terrain hugging or low altitude flying is not a key choice for MKIs.

Free fall N. Bomb LOLZ why not long range Glide bomb.

KH-55/ KH-101/ KH-102 (RCS of 0.01 sq m)

When the package has to be delivered the deliver platform don't fly alone, rather protected by a group of other aircraft providing fleet jamming, ground jammers, aerial decoys, and protection and delivery could will be done from strandoff distance via cruise missile and there are two things

1. First Strike --- SPF Super Sukhoi 30MKI aerial refueling with tanker and covering MKI

2. Second Strike --- Rafale, Mirrage 2005, Jaguar buddy buddy refueling with MKI

I excluded any tactical nuclear strike.

PS. There is no open source information available for which aircraft is used for the N delivery using fighter aircraft. Infact any aircraft could be used for that purpose, but needs some modification, some of them heavy and some of them few.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

When the package has to be delivered the deliver platform don't fly alone, rather protected by a group of other aircraft providing fleet jamming, ground jammers, aerial decoys, and protection and delivery could will be done from strandoff distance via cruise missile and there are two things

1. First Strike --- SPF Super Sukhoi 30MKI aerial refueling with tanker and covering MKI

2. Second Strike --- Rafale, Mirrage 2005, Jaguar buddy buddy refueling with MKI

I excluded any tactical nuclear strike.

What about SEAD and DEAD missions? Wont they be pre empt to First Strike?

 

[Kompromat]

Please keep it technical and on the topic.