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Su-30MKI - Super Sukhoi Upgrade Program.

What about SEAD and DEAD missions? Wont they be pre empt to First Strike?

SEAD and DEAD is required if you want to fly few rounds to target specific target but for N. package delivery, its just deliver the package from safe strandoff distance via cruise missile, and turn back. Jamming/reduction of ground radars and awacs of enemy would be needed, which would be done with the jammers retrofitted to the wing tips and powerful ground radars near border to reduce the enemy AWAAC power.

Actually whole mission is a complex game with multiple fake flight of MKI flying close to border and return, to create confussion, Aerial decoys, UAV emitting same radar return etc etc and between them a lone package delivery platform flying to its ultimate destination at low altitute, aerial refuled with budy budy or tanker.

Please keep it technical and on the topic.

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What part do you think is offtopic Sir ?
 
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SEAD and DEAD is required if you want to fly few rounds to target specific target but for N. package delivery, its just deliver the package from safe strandoff distance via cruise missile, and turn back. Jamming/reduction of ground radars and awacs of enemy would be needed, which would be done with the jammers retrofitted to the wing tips and powerful ground radars near border to reduce the enemy AWAAC power.

Actually whole mission is a complex game with multiple fake flight of MKI flying close to border and return, to create confussion, Aerial decoys, UAV emitting same radar return etc etc and between them a lone package delivery platform flying to its ultimate destination at low altitute, aerial refuled with budy budy or tanker.



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What part do you think is offtopic Sir ?


But bro, judging by what you are saying the strategic role of IAF continues with MKIs now and super MKIs in future.

That implies tactical or low level roles for other fleet members including mirages, jags and later rafales

Now if tactical role is only envisioned then a more cost intensive solution could have been having a tactical fighter bomber like Su34 replacing mig27s, jags and mirages all at one go..

This analogy implies even with super upgrade if IAF still wants another jet like Rafale, the strategic role will not have super MKIs. Alcm or standoff glide of strategic nature if super MKI was envisioned would have automatically led to striking off of jets like Rafale EF etc from MMRCA itself.

The more ominous signs point super MKI in air superiority role only.. And primary strategic role handled by another category of jets.
 
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First question
Most public records in net says India uses Nuke delivery via Mirages and Jaguars.
With the Super 30 upgrade will the upgraded Sukhois will be used for N delivery?
You have answered your own question bro. What does the IAF currently designate as its nuclear delivery a/c? The Mirages and Jags- both optimised for low-level strike missions.

The MKI is not a low-level strike fighter, it is and will remain a air dominance fighter. The addtion of the Brahmos-A changes little as this is a stand-off weapon meant to be fired from friendly airspace, the MKI would not be flying in low into enemy airspace to launch this ALCM. Nothing I have read on the Super MKI upgrade has stated the MKI is being optimised for deep penetration misions and it was never certified to do so (airframe or radar). The nuclear strike mission will remain with the Mirages, Jags and in the future the Rafales- the latter being the "daddy" of 21st century nuclear strike fighter bombers thanks to the French's emphasis on this mission profile being core to the Rafale.
 
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You have answered your own question bro. What does the IAF currently designate as its nuclear delivery a/c? The Mirages and Jags- both optimised for low-level strike missions.

The MKI is not a low-level strike fighter, it is and will remain a air dominance fighter. The addtion of the Brahmos-A changes little as this is a stand-off weapon meant to be fired from friendly airspace, the MKI would not be flying in low into enemy airspace to launch this ALCM. Nothing I have read on the Super MKI upgrade has stated the MKI is being optimised for deep penetration misions and it was never certified to do so (airframe or radar). The nuclear strike mission will remain with the Mirages, Jags and in the future the Rafales- the latter being the "daddy" of 21st century nuclear strike fighter bombers thanks to the French's emphasis on this mission profile being core to the Rafale.


My question is a trick question bro..
i have said before that 36 Raffy goes to Strategic core being 5% approx of fleet strength. But then again i was trying to understand the logic of Super 30 MKI from the realms of tactical and strategic missions.
Your answer is almost whats in my mind from the start.. Just wanted to re learn new points which i might have overlooked..
 
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For Nuclear dilevery with the fighter plane what is needed is the Hardened avionics aka all the electronics of the fighter plane are shielded from the Nuclear blast impulses. I think Rafale and MKI suits this role pretty much, which could fire nuclear tip cruise missile from strandoff distance. I think 50 MKI should be given to SPF for such role, under the nuclear command fly by IAF pilots.

Problems with cruise missile is far higher. First space constraint in misslie. So have to develop separate warhead. This nuclear warhead with missile gives very little scope of versatility. I mean when miraj inducted in force they were best and if mki has proof him better so IAF just started using them for nuke delivery. If miraj were using missiles for nuke than those warheads are just waste for mki.
No need to say, we can use any fighter for nuke but not randomly picked pilot.
Limited number export of rafale do justify their use for SEAD and especial missins.

MKI used for Carpet bombing is the waste of assets and should be given to the Jaguar and MIG-27.

Nope actauly mki is better for carpet bombing. Bird capable of delivering tons of ammu. Jaguar and mig just dont have such things.

6. Streghtening of Airframe to carry 3 Brahmos.
7. KH-34P and other Strandoff Weapons
8. Python-5 WVR
Super Sukhoi 30MKI than could perform SEAD, DEAD, Jamming, Ground attack from strandoff weapon, Air superiority.

That would be waste of money. Let us see what IAF will demand in these birds.

1. Air frame strengthening, and Sukhoi Certificate of Low altitute 8G.
2. Tech from PAK FA
3. Weapons developed for PAK FA
4. Superior Computing power with fully integration of Indian Air force Battle Management with real time network with IAF Satellite and network.
5. Superior Sensors and 360 degree Radar, to give full spectrum and sensor fussion.


All this is just too ambitious. lol.
Mki should be improve as it was not as su34.
 
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With the advent of nuke tipped ALCM, deep penetration of enemy airspace for nuke deliveries become irrelevant. The missiles can the launched from stand-off distances away from enemy air defence envelop or even from friendly airspace.
And the MKI fits into that role like a glove.

1. The heavy payload capability of the MKI makes it capable of carrying the Brahmos air launched version tipped with conventional or nuke warheads depending on the mission. The 42 MKI slated to undergo modernization 'could' replace the Mirages of the SFC (and the role of the Jags too upto an extend) as the spear head for the air-leg of the triad during a retaliatory strike. In the future, it'll carry the Brahmos-NG and the Nirbhay ALCM.

2. Rafale will be tasked with SEAD/DEAD/precision strike missions and also CAS deep enemy territory with low level flights during conventional warfare. They will also provide EW protection for the strike fleet.

3. MKI's are already performing CAS roles with dedicated squadrons already in place. (the sqdn that participated in the Ex Indradhanush was one)
 
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But bro, judging by what you are saying the strategic role of IAF continues with MKIs now and super MKIs in future.

That implies tactical or low level roles for other fleet members including mirages, jags and later rafales

Now if tactical role is only envisioned then a more cost intensive solution could have been having a tactical fighter bomber like Su34 replacing mig27s, jags and mirages all at one go..

This analogy implies even with super upgrade if IAF still wants another jet like Rafale, the strategic role will not have super MKIs. Alcm or standoff glide of strategic nature if super MKI was envisioned would have automatically led to striking off of jets like Rafale EF etc from MMRCA itself.

The more ominous signs point super MKI in air superiority role only.. And primary strategic role handled by another category of jets.

Sorry for such late answer,

however starting India should have air drop nuclear bomb design which would be delivered from fighter plane. Now this is my assessment, how would be the design of such bomb. A bombs should be equipped with parachute and was programmed to be released from a predefined altitude over the target, with the timer which will trigger at preset time. Some reports indicated India did equipped couple of Mirrage 2000 for that role, and some Jaguar.
The platform should be capable of flying deep inside the enemy airspace probably low altitude profile to avoid radar detection, and near the target rise to high altitude to release the bomb and needs air cover from enemy fighter planes.

But now the better option is to deliver via the cruise missile, or other strandoff delivery platform like GPS guided glide bomb. You are correct that Rafale have low RCS, and could fly in terrain hugging profile, and can carry Nuke, but the problem is if cruise missile is the delivery option, than MKI is best suited -- Reasons

1. India is license building SU-30MKI.
2. With Russia India could strategically make certain deals secretly.
3. Which Cruise missile do you want to use for Nuke delivery, and certainly India have many Russian Cruise missile, and active cruise missile program like Brahmos NG, and Nirbhay Mini which would be fit on the aircraft called Super Sukhoi MKI not the rafale.
4. Note- MKI cannot fly low altitude in terrain hugging, terrain avoidance does not means it cannot, rather you need the ground radar, to map the ground which modern Radar like AESA or even PESA N011 M radar can do, and the airframe which can take the stress of some level like say 8.5 G, which in this case is not certified by the OEM i.e Sukhoi/IRKUT.

And most important the Strategic command asked for the SU-30MKI-- 40 nos under the strategic command, and at that time there was no Rafale there.

Problems with cruise missile is far higher. First space constraint in misslie. So have to develop separate warhead. This nuclear warhead with missile gives very little scope of versatility. I mean when miraj inducted in force they were best and if mki has proof him better so IAF just started using them for nuke delivery. If miraj were using missiles for nuke than those warheads are just waste for mki.
No need to say, we can use any fighter for nuke but not randomly picked pilot.
Limited number export of rafale do justify their use for SEAD and especial missins.

Problem with dropping the Bomb is that the fighter plane has to come close to the target to deliver, but doing so close to SAM, and air defence system, and near enemy space. With Cruise Missile, it could be done from the Strandoff and our own space.

Nope actauly mki is better for carpet bombing. Bird capable of delivering tons of ammu. Jaguar and mig just dont have such things.

Depend on how you think. Do you want a 125 Million a piece bird, with 2 dedicated Pilots to be used to drop the dump bomb, and not doing what it is specialized i.e Air Superiority. For you information Jaguar and MIG 27 both are the speciallized ground attack fighter aircraft, and what does it means, that they are fitted with the ground radar, not the A2A radar, and Jaguar, with its NAV attack device on its nose can deliver those dumb bomb precisely where it should be placed. And yes offcource both are certified to fly at low altitude with the drop load, which MKI don't pocess. Jaguar can fly at the tree top level at the supersonic speed with the long range aka deep strike capability.
MIG-27 have the bullet proof armour around the area where the Pilot sits, needed, when you attack the armoured formation with its 4 50mm guns, it will cause the havoc when from the sky its coming to the enemy doing straffing fire (same which was tried during the Kargil war, at the high altitude which was never attempted before anywhere with this bird, but the gun fire at such rate causes the engine to flame out)and this plane can take the enemy machine gun fire which your other fighter plane cannot.

That would be waste of money. Let us see what IAF will demand in these birds.

It will be waste ????
1. Air frame strengthening, not only allows the longer life of the airframe as it would be able to take more stress.

2. KH-34P ARM for SEAD Mission because its range is around 200 KM.

3. Python-5 because it will be inducted in IAF and InAF, and it is the most dangerous WVR missile in the world and provide 360 degree coverage and the offbore sight of 90 degree, which the R-73 don't give.

All this is just too ambitious. lol.
Mki should be improve as it was not as su34.

OK.
 
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And most important the Strategic command asked for the SU-30MKI-- 40 nos under the strategic command, and at that time there was no Rafale there.
This is actually a myth.

The MKI is not a suitable n-delivery platform, the SFC asked for 40 aircraft of its own but never specified which aircraft.
 
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The MKI is not a suitable n-delivery platform, the SFC asked for 40 aircraft of its own but never specified which aircraft.

Actually, the 42 MKIs being modernized to carry BrahMos will be under SFC control.

"In September 2010 India’s newly constituted tri-services Strategic Forces Command (SFC) submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up two dedicated squadrons of aircraft comprising 40 Su-30MKI air dominance fighters. The task of this “mini air force” is to deliver nuclear weapons."

Why the BrahMos armed Sukhoi is bad news for India’s enemies | Russia & India Report

Strategic Command to acquire 40 nuclear capable fighters | delhi | Hindustan Times
 
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Actually, the 42 MKIs being modernized to carry BrahMos will be under SFC control.

"In September 2010 India’s newly constituted tri-services Strategic Forces Command (SFC) submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up two dedicated squadrons of aircraft comprising 40 Su-30MKI air dominance fighters. The task of this “mini air force” is to deliver nuclear weapons."
This was misreported, the two stories (SFC's request and Brahmos launch capability being added to MKIs) were put together when they are entirely unlinked.

As @PARIKRAMA has stated, the MKI's electronics aren't hardened for N-delivery nor are they certified for low level deep penetraton strike missions as would be required for the N-delivery role
 
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This was misreported, the two stories (SFC's request and Brahmos launch capability being added to MKIs) were put together when they are entirely unlinked.

We'll your point would have been true if the MKI was supposed to drop nuclear dumb bombs. But with the Brahmos, the MKI's would not have to fly low as they can fire the missiles from a stand-off distance while the missile itself follows a hi-lo-hi flight profile. And the upgrade will surely include nuclear hardening of all electronic components in the aircraft including double redundancy.

The almost same number of aircrafts required that to the ones being upgraded is too much of a coincidence to have been misinterpreted.
 
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FieldProvenHighConfidenceWpns-DRDOM.jpg


Brahmos warhead is around 200kg.. Based on a demonstrated design the yield is 50KT for 250kgs weight.

So approximately 35KT yield for 200kg standoff Missile

The french ASMP is having a same warhead of 200kg armed with TN 81 but yield is proven 150kt -300kt depending upon single or dual options

Nirbhay alcm version is expected to have warhead of approx 400 -450 kgs with reduced range of maximum 1000 km more like 800-1000 km whereas land version can hit upto 1500 km. That's the missile for 150kt warhead

Thus effectively all arguments of brahmos is clearly a high precision low yield Missile.

Secondly, any aircraft which uses stand off missiles at long range don't require radiation hardening per say. So its foolish to assume that the modified su30mki are radiation hardened.

On the other hand mirages are suppose to carry the free fall n bomb implying they are within the radiation emp effect at the time of detonation and thus they require radiation hardening.

You must understand as I said before the 5-10% rule for nuke force of entire fleet size. The force will have a bird capable of dropping free fall nuclear bombs. That's why radiation hardened. The rest of MKIs are any way first phase as later the mini brahmos will also capable to carry a 150kg low yield 30kt device.. These are all standoff launches from long range but are not necessarily part of SFC..

The machines of SFC will have anytime minimum of 80% availability.. That's why jags with 90% in IAF and Rafales with Proposed 90% is being looked bcz they are for free fall devices. The stand off Missile ones don't require such high availability. If MKI is to be inducted in SFC will require minimum 80% availability criteria. Now you know the answer for that if MKI can achieve it or not..

Lastly brahmos mini and Nirbhay alcm will at an appropriate time will be available for integration to rafales. The Indian customisation does nt say astra, it says indigenous missiles for which suitable support will be provided for integration. So it will be integrated in aphased manner.
 
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Thus effectively all arguments of brahmos is clearly a high precision low yield Missile.

precisely

Secondly, any aircraft which uses stand off missiles at long range don't require radiation hardening per say. So its foolish to assume that the modified su30mki are radiation hardened.

Nuclear hardening is not necessary for the MKIs. But since they are envisaged to operate in a nuclear battlefield, and since the structure is completed being worked upon, there might be a good chance that they'll get the nuclear hardening treatment.

The rest of MKIs are any way first phase as later the mini brahmos will also capable to carry a 150kg low yield 30kt device.. These are all standoff launches from long range but are not necessarily part of SFC..

True, but only the SFC operated MKIs will have the nuclear tipped cruise missiles.

Now you know the answer for that if MKI can achieve it or not..

Hence the apprehension about its availability and reliability.

Lastly brahmos mini and Nirbhay alcm will at an appropriate time will be available for integration to rafales. The Indian customisation does nt say astra, it says indigenous missiles for which suitable support will be provided for integration. So it will be integrated in aphased manner.

Does the Rafale come with any pre-conditions, so that they are not used for launching a nuclear device?
France will remove the capability to fire ASMPA missiles from our Rafales before being delivered.
 
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And most important the Strategic command asked for the SU-30MKI-- 40 nos under the strategic command, and at that time there was no Rafale there.

September 2010 SFC asked for 40/birds
June 2010 Dassault offered 40jets outside MMRCA especially for India
The SFC request to UPA was in response to Rafale offer.. It was no way connectwd to MKI modernisation plan for 42 especially for brahmos.

Here is all the proof from public domain

Senior Dassault officials in France briefed visiting Indian Air Force AOC-in-C Eastern Air Command, Air Marshal KK Nowhar, about the Rafale and reiterated the company's willingness/ability to rapidly supply 40 Rafales to the IAF as a stopgap ahead of the MMRCA competition results
LIVEFIST: Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales

The Press Trust of India, reports that India's joint nuclear command -- the Strategic Forces Command -- is looking to procure 40 fighters for two dedicated strategic strike squadrons. The report indicates that while the Indian Air Force's Mirage-2000s, Jaguars and Su-30MKIs have so far been earmarked for the nuclear strike profile, the SFC wants two squadrons of its own. The report says nothing more. The Ministry of Defence has not commented on the report.
A totally separate but tantalizing coincidence -- in June, Dassault offered the IAF a fast-track sale of 40 Rafales to shore up squadron strength ahead of the MMRCA induction. The Rafale is also the only aircraft explicitly described in its bid document as a nuclear capable strike fighter. Answers to those questions above and more details later this evening.
LIVEFIST: PTI: India's Joint Nuclear Command Wants 40 Nuclear Strike Jets


And the 42 MKI news is from August 2010
Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.
Why the cost so high
Bcz Some experts pointed out that Russia's latest offer may include airborne weapons and other accessories, such as a new radar and electronic devices.Addition, the contract may also include ground support equipment.

Thus they are not hardwired type as people believed. The hardwired type increases price by about 20%-25% not 100% as shown in that deal..

Does the Rafale come with any pre-conditions, so that they are not used for launching a nuclear device?
France will remove the capability to fire ASMPA missiles from our Rafales before being delivered.

No there is no pre condition as in MMRCA French side clearly declared in the submitted documents as Rafale being nuclear capable whereas none of the other contenders declared that. ASMP capability is nullified as we won't get that anyway. But there is no precondition of its usage in fact it was their selling usp

True, but only the SFC operated MKIs will have the nuclear tipped cruise missiles.

And that is why I am saying an ALCM nuke tipped as of now is not under our SFC command. The minutrised warhead design with 30kt yield is not what SFC wants and is looking. Since our doctrine talks of irrevocable and massive retaliation, the yields are at anytime expected to be minimum 150KT+ and for us the design is 150KT at 450kg warhead. That punishable strike warhead is intended for a any Missile under SFC. The question to ask is the vintage prithvi had warhead of 1000kg and as above picture shows the N warhead is 800kg of legacy design and yield of 200KT.e have been able to bring down the weight by almost 50% over time but still delivery systems as of now don't have 450kg warhead delivery in ALCM mode.

This the brahmos for the moment with present warhead size and lack of proven tested 150kt yield implies its a high precision conventional strike weapon. If and when Nirbhay alcm comes in then perhaps the capability may change and then SFC may integrate a jet like MKI for n strike role or if we can reduce warhead size further but that would be untested design completely.
 
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This the brahmos for the moment with present warhead size and lack of proven tested 150kt yield implies its a high precision conventional strike weapon.

I understand the need for SFC to demand miniaturized warheads, but can't the current gen warheads even with this reduced yield be used to take out HVTs like CCS, FOBs, staging areas with high troop density, enemy TBM launchers etc before the full retaliation with our BMs?
I mean, the SLBMs, Nirbhays and ALCMs (nuke tipped) will be tasked to take out high priority targets while the IRBMs deliver the bulk of nuke warheads. So, the MKI's with their BrahMos will play an integral role during the second strike, don't you think?
 
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