Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Adux]

Asim,

Try the J-10..maybe we can have a match up

 

[HAIDER]

maneuvering is plus point.....but plane has to reduce the speed at very low, first which is harmful..takes time to comback in momentum and burn lot of fuel....

 

[IceCold]

Longer Radar Range will make the 30MKI see the JF-17 first, and Fire First, JF-17 has to come close to have a chance.
SD-10 has 70Km range, What is the use of 70Kms in a straight line. When 30MKI will see it on launch and will take evasive manoever. While India is already in negotition for Meteor, Python 5, The newest varient of the R-series and also the home grown Astra, Which are all beyond 100Kms.. Super manoverbility is the speciliaity of Su-30MKI and Russian Planes in general.
https://defence.pk/forums/showthread.php?t=5296

Thrust Vectroing in Jf-17 ?????????

There isnt any thrust vectroing in jf17 as for the comparision u done well su r definetly more advance and more capable then the jfs till now but PAF has plans to upgrade the fighter plan every 5 years and for the radar the PAF is already looking for new type of radar for the jfs possibly a phased array which will enhance the capability of the jfs.

 

[Hayreddin]

Cockpit
Advanced 4.5th generation EFIS with cockpit displays that are compatible with western systems such as those built by Rockwell Collins and Honeywell.
The current MIL-STD-1553B data bus can be readily replaced by MIL-STD-1773 fiber optics data bus upon customer's request.
Control panel conChinese Weapons


The SD-10 is the primary Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air-to-Air Missile (AAM) for the JF-17PL-9C for within visual range combat
SD-10 BVRAAM for beyond visual range combat.
Non-Chinese Weapons

R-Darter BVR-AAM (Proposed at IDEAS 2006, Karachi, Pakistan)
A-Darter WVR-AAM (Proposed at IDEAS 2006, Karachi, Pakistan)
IRIS-T WVR-AAM (Proposed at IDEAS 2006, Karachi, Pakistan)
AIM-9L/M SidewinderWVR-AAM
AIM-7F Sparrow BVR-AAM

Air-to-ground weaponry
In addition to unguided bombs and rockets, the aircraft is adopted to deploy a wide range of precision guided munitions, including:

Non-Chinese weapons:

DPGM (Precision Guided Bomb)
Raptor-I precision-guided long-range glide bomb (60km)
Raptor II precision-guided long-range glide bomb (120km)
Anti-ship missile such as Exocet and Harpoon missile.
Russian KAB series laser guided bombs (These Russian bombs can not be directly mounted onto weaponry pylons like western or Chinese munitions, instead, additional special adoptation rails are required for JF-17 when using these Russian bombs)
sisting of 3 color screens (20.3 cm×20.3 cm) only
All information is processed and displayed on them
The functions of each screen are exchangeable
Brightness & contrast can be adjusted either automatically or manually
Displays can also be adjusted to be compatible with night vision goggles.
Each screen can be re-defined
The current CRT display can be readily replaced by LCD upon customer's request, and touch screen option is also available (However, neither the Chinese Air Force nor the Pakistani Air Force has shown any interests in the touch screen options, and there is no known successful export either).
HUD is a state-of-the-art system developed by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC)
Many images/information can be displayed at the same time
All HUD and head-down displays are compatible with the standard electro-optical targeting pod that is carried externally.
Radar has strong ECCM capacity and multiple modes, such as A2A (both BVR & close), air-to-ground, air-to-sea, terrain avoidance, etc. Terrain following mode is not standard, but can be added upon customer's request by either incorporating an external pod such as the Chinese Blue Sky navigational and targeting pods, or alternatively, the direct integration of the radar itself.
It can simultaneously detect 40+ targets, simultaneously track 10 of 40 detected targets, and simultaneously engage 2 of the 10 tracked targets by guiding 2 semi-active radar homing BVR missiles to attack two separate targets. Alternatively, two missiles can be fired at the same target to insure the kill probability.
When active radar homing air-to-air missiles are used, the number of targets that can be simultaneously engaged are increased to 4.
The detection range for a typical air target of RC 3 m² is 125+ km; looking downrange is 45+ km; range for sea target is 250+ km.
When engaging land targets, the Chinese radar can lock on to individual vehicle like American radars do, instead of only being able to lock on to a large group of vehicles like the Russian Phazotron Kopyo (Spear) radar onboard MiG-21-93.
Easy to access LRUs with fully digitized solid state electronics and built-in self test functions.
Plenty of room for improvement is incorporated in the design so that the current plannar slotted array that can be readily replaced by a passive phased array.
Reporgrammable digital processor with open architecture design.
Option to incorporate IFF.
The internally mounted electro-optics is not standard for JF-17, but the radar is compatible with them for their rapid integration upon customer's request.

 

[Keysersoze]

The 20km range advantage that the R-77 holds over the Aim-120 seems like the easiest thing to beat the Su-30 at. It's rumored that the SD-10 can do a range of 70km and the R-77 a range of 90 (For both I'm assuming no maneuvers and just a straight line path). Of course this range of the SD-10 was of it's first version and its said to have undergone changes... It needs matching or more range.

Su-30 also gives off a nice solid and large cross-section when hit with the signals from the radar if the JF-17 is able to fire a missile it is sure to get a nice solid lock.

Thrust vectoring on the JF-17 should also take away the Su-30MKI's advantage to run circles around the JF-17. Espcially if its a 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 scenario.

Asim you guys are not gonna be able to get the NEZ details so the whole Kinematic range thing is really moot. The R-77 listed range is only the Kinematic range for the missile and thus is not a good starting point to base nay discussion upon. Also the R-77 range comes from a launch at speed (I will have to dig up the launch parameters from somewhere) whereas the AIM120 uses a parabolic launch.

THEN there is the seeker issues which it is also hard to find information on easily.

 

[Adux]

We get Radar Range and Detection ranges above even without a Radar in post 23 ....lol

 

[Keysersoze]

We get Radar Range and Detection ranges above even without a Radar in post 23 ....lol

post 23 was about missiles not radars. Dunno where you got radar ranges from?

 

[Awesome]

Thrust Vectroing in Jf-17 ?????????

Google around they are tweaking up the RD-93 or the Chinese version would come with that tweak.

Probably someone else can help post that article up here.

 

[Awesome]

Asim you guys are not gonna be able to get the NEZ details so the whole Kinematic range thing is really moot. The R-77 listed range is only the Kinematic range for the missile and thus is not a good starting point to base nay discussion upon.

Aren't the ranges mentioned on the Aim-120 pretty much the same?

I don't think the R-77 is a superior missile, especially since I read somewhere (I think FAS) that it doesn't match up in ECCM capability. But its not so bad. It can home-on-jam. While we would be trying to jam the missile, we'd only be serving as a beacon for that missiles.

I hope our ECM employs the 'weak when strong, strong when weak' technique of jamming. Jamming signals should be intelligently used to avoid serving as that beacon for the R-77.

 

[Keysersoze]

Aren't the ranges mentioned on the Aim-120 pretty much the same?

I don't think the R-77 is a superior missile, especially since I read somewhere (I think FAS) that it doesn't match up in ECCM capability. But its not so bad. It can home-on-jam. While we would be trying to jam the missile, we'd only be serving as a beacon for that missiles.

I hope our ECM employs the 'weak when strong, strong when weak' technique of jamming. Jamming signals should be intelligently used to avoid serving as that beacon for the R-77.

All the searching I Have done states that the AIM120 has a more effective range than the R-77. Apparently the kinematic range of late model AIM120's has been grossly understated. this discussion then falls into radars etc. Also it is Dependant upon the conditions of the missile being fired for example.

 

[BATMAN]

Su-30 also gives off a nice solid and large cross-section when hit with the signals from the radar if the JF-17 is able to fire a missile it is sure to get a nice solid lock.

Can quoted disadvantage is also help full for ground fire.
What if JF-17 are operated in conjection with AWACS, does this put JF-17 in advantageous position.
There must be a plan to intercept SU-30, which invalidate the conventional 1 to 1 comparison.

Thrust vectoring on the JF-17 should also take away the Su-30MKI's advantage to run circles around the JF-17. Espcially if its a 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 scenario.

What happens in scenario, multiple JF-17 (having thrust vectoring) intercepts multiple SU-30 or fire BVR simultaneously.

 

[Contrarian]

maneuvering is plus point.....but plane has to reduce the speed at very low, first which is harmful..takes time to comback in momentum and burn lot of fuel....

This is PRECICELY why Thrust Vectoring exists. Check out the 3-D thrust vectoring of MiG 35. Su-30MKI has 2-D TVC.

 

[Contrarian]

Can quoted disadvantage is also help full for ground fire.
What if JF-17 are operated in conjection with AWACS, does this put JF-17 in advantageous position.
There must be a plan to intercept SU-30, which invalidate the conventional 1 to 1 comparison.



What happens in scenario, multiple JF-17 (having thrust vectoring) intercepts multiple SU-30 or fire BVR simultaneously.

Yes, but i think it was posted by adux that the MKI can track around 15 or 16 targets.

The scheduled MLU for the MKI involves upgradation of the radar to ATLEAST Passive Phased Irbis-E radar. It can track an RCS 3 sq m at around 350-400 kms. OTOH, IAF might just go for a AESA like the Elta 2052. No need to comment on that.

 

[Skull-Buster]

Su 30 is definitely more superior than the JF-17, the only case where the JF-17 might have a chance is in a 3 on 1 scenario. i think it will be better to compare the J-10 with SU-30.

 

[Owais]

Su 30 is definitely more superior than the JF-17, the only case where the JF-17 might have a chance is in a 3 on 1 scenario. i think it will be better to compare the J-10 with SU-30.

F-10 with a good AESA radar with TVc(will be in WS10-A) can easily compete with MKI.
so the only issue remians for PAF is to get superior radar and avionics.