Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[unicorn148]

mr hasnain the present r77 has a greater range than the aim120 and the range of phalcon awacs is greater than the erieye and india may be using phython5 and derby which is superior to even aim and meantor

 

[unicorn148]

the aim 120d is in testing phase and may take more than 10 years for pakisthan to get it aim 120 c range 105 km sd 10 range 100km R77m range is 175km

 

[desiman]

Sir, I've posted here before that the JF-17 "resembles" the Tigershark, both in planform and in ideology, but that is about it. There are many structural differences, and technologically, the JF-17 is far advanced even today. If anything, the JF-17 compares much more with Russian designs (as hj786 has proven), as the original Super 7 was an upgrade of the trusted MiG-19. All said, the way you have spoken about the JF-17 is simply disrespectful. As an employee in the Aerospace industry, I expect better of you. Also, if there is one guy on this forum I would trust for proper research, it is hj786, so it's futile to get into a research war with him.

As for the MKI, agreed, it most likely is near the top of all jets in the region. However, the way you are speaking of the MKI very much points to "blind love" for it. It is not invincible, in fact, there are many problems that are well known and documented with this design. Sensitivity to FOD, maintenance issues, high cost of maintenance, an engine that can't take much punishment, size, and on and on. BVR, 1 vs 1, no AWACs, no RADAR, level flight, I'd surely give the nod to Su-30MKI any day, but when will that scenario ever occur? Under an AWACs/RADAR blanket, with full battle tactics, things change drastically. WVR, well, PAF pilots claim the JF-17 to be as capable as the F-16, which is a huge compliment. So WVR, I'd say the JF-17 is more than just a match for the TVC Su-30MKI.

There is no need to take every single post on this thread to heart, in fact, most should simply be ignored. Nobody is saying the JF-17 is superior to the Su-30MKI in every way. However, if you think there is no way the JF-17 can counter the MKI, well, history might serve a good lesson.

Brother if i offended you in any way, i apologize for that but what i only meant that i am also seeing the people here are demeaning the MKI. If you read my previous post i have applauded the JF-17 name times for its cost and tech but one must keep in mind that it is not made to compete with the MKI, the PAF has the f-16's for that. I am getting arguments that why is India buying other jets if the MKI is soo good, well if you say that then why is the PAF buying more f-16 or the j-10 when the JF-17 is so good. Arguments are that is what i am against, as you said me being from the aerospace industry, i know what i am talking about. Giving technical details is not tough, i have given enough of that in my previous post but even after that the argument rages on. I am not saying that the MKI is invincible or it cannot be shot down but the chances of that happening on a "one on one" battle are very less. Yes if you say that a lone MKI will be against 3-4 JF-17's with awacs support then yes the MKI does not stand a very good chance. My only point is that the JF-17 is a great achievement and will really help out the PAF, but the JF-17 will never be a deterrent like the way the MKI is and it will take many upgrades and many future blocks for the JF-17 to come on par with the MKI. Feel free to disagree bro

 

[PAFAce]

Brother if i offended you in any way, i apologize for that but what i only meant that i am also seeing the people here are demeaning the MKI. If you read my previous post i have applauded the JF-17 name times for its cost and tech but one must keep in mind that it is not made to compete with the MKI, the PAF has the f-16's for that. I am getting arguments that why is India buying other jets if the MKI is soo good, well if you say that then why is the PAF buying more f-16 or the j-10 when the JF-17 is so good. Arguments are that is what i am against, as you said me being from the aerospace industry, i know what i am talking about. Giving technical details is not tough, i have given enough of that in my previous post but even after that the argument rages on. I am not saying that the MKI is invincible or it cannot be shot down but the chances of that happening on a "one on one" battle are very less. Yes if you say that a lone MKI will be against 3-4 JF-17's with awacs support then yes the MKI does not stand a very good chance. My only point is that the JF-17 is a great achievement and will really help out the PAF, but the JF-17 will never be a deterrent like the way the MKI is and it will take many upgrades and many future blocks for the JF-17 to come on par with the MKI. Feel free to disagree bro

Hey, I don't have much to disagree with here. Glad to read your views.

 

[desiman]

Hey, I don't have much to disagree with here. Glad to read your views.

Thanks bro, glad you agree, mods close this thread now lol

 

[hj786]

If anything, the JF-17 compares much more with Russian designs (as hj786 has proven), as the original Super 7 was an upgrade of the trusted MiG-19. All said, the way you have spoken about the JF-17 is simply disrespectful. As an employee in the Aerospace industry, I expect better of you. Also, if there is one guy on this forum I would trust for proper research, it is hj786, so it's futile to get into a research war with him.

I wouldn't say that sir, I just read what I find and save it if it's useful, I'm only as trustworthy as the articles I happen to come across.

So WVR, I'd say the JF-17 is more than just a match for the TVC Su-30MKI.

I wouldn't go that far, the Sukhoi has a lot of thrust and TVC does give an advantage. But anybody with half a brain can see how a helmet-mounted targeting system and modern missiles can even the playing field to a certain extent. Same with data-links, AWACS, aerial refuelling, etc.
Some time ago I asked Gambit if it's true that AMRAAM can be launched by an F-16, with its radar switched off, being updated with radar data from an AWACS via Link-16. I received the response that indeed it can. I am confident that the PAF will find a way to make the JF-17 / SD-10 / KJ-200 combination work similarly if they haven't already, hence my belief that a secure data-link, AWACS support and good AAMs are more important than radar upgrades for the JF-17.

However, the radar on the Awacs can only "track" targets and not "engage" them.

The technology doesn't exist at the moment (although the US is experimenting), to use Awacs for engagement.

According to an ex-USAF avionics technician called Gambit who has worked on the F-111 and F-16C/D for years, you are wrong.

 

[sathruvinasakh]

I wouldn't say that sir, I just read what I find and save it if it's useful, I'm only as trustworthy as the articles I happen to come across.


I wouldn't go that far, the Sukhoi has a lot of thrust and TVC does give an advantage. But anybody with half a brain can see how a helmet-mounted targeting system and modern missiles can even the playing field to a certain extent. Same with data-links, AWACS, aerial refuelling, etc.
Some time ago I asked Gambit if it's true that AMRAAM can be launched by an F-16, with its radar switched off, being updated with radar data from an AWACS via Link-16. I received the response that indeed it can. I am confident that the PAF will find a way to make the JF-17 / SD-10 / KJ-200 combination work similarly if they haven't already, hence my belief that a secure data-link, AWACS support and good AAMs are more important than radar upgrades for the JF-17.


According to an ex-USAF avionics technician called Gambit who has worked on the F-111 and F-16C/D for years, you are wrong.

If the comparison is between the fighters why do you bring the AWACS and IFR?

If PAF can get their Hands on an AWACS in future,IAF already had one and does had past experience with A-50.And soon will receive the others which were known as the best AWACS in the world(Phalcons).

And even if we Ignore the use of additional AWACS ,MKI still functions as a mini AWACS with single console in the rear seat.
That is one of the main reason why IAF was interested in the development of Su-30 into a MKI.
:Mod Edit:

 

[paritosh]

Bhai sahib.......plz keep in mind that once data linked with AWACS, the plane can switch its radar off and even awacs can guide the fired missile just like F-22 does. it is lethal....

and you have a habit of dropping in the middle of threads without any idea what has already been discussed...i have already discussed what you have posted...read aage-peeche ki posts before you jump in the fray.

cus you don't know that a missile is homing on you until it suddenly lites up and you have to save your *** in no time....

not true...
most planes have Radar warning receivers that can detect the source of a missile lock-on(or a radar lock-on) and they give off warning and the plane's electronic counter measures or ECMs try to deal with the threat...so the missile doesn't suddenly light up your HUD....mostly a radar-lock is detected as it is established.
as far as the WVR combat is involved...even that is not a problem...
planes have Infrared threat detectors..which detect the IR signatures from the missiles exhaust plumes...ans give warnings...and every misile does have a radar signature...

and secondly that its not necessary that a plane,if carries greater amount of missiles, should emerge victorious.....remember race is won by agile not laden.....if JF gets meteor or AIM-120 then even 4 missiles mean a good combat capability....

the plane that fires more missiles wins...period.
every BVR missile has a first kill probability...and no missile has a 100% FKP.
this probability exponentially increases with the number of missiles fired...and hence the advantage lies with the number of BVR missiles carried.

now please do some research befor posting anything

yeah right.

 

[desiman]

and you have a habit of dropping in the middle of threads without any idea what has already been discussed...i have already discussed what you have posted...read aage-peeche ki posts before you jump in the fray.


not true...
most planes have Radar warning receivers that can detect the source of a missile lock-on(or a radar lock-on) and they give off warning and the plane's electronic counter measures or ECMs try to deal with the threat...so the missile doesn't suddenly light up your HUD....mostly a radar-lock is detected as it is established.
as far as the WVR combat is involved...even that is not a problem...
planes have Infrared threat detectors..which detect the IR signatures from the missiles exhaust plumes...ans give warnings...and every misile does have a radar signature...


the plane that fires more missiles wins...period.
every BVR missile has a first kill probability...and no missile has a 100% FKP.
this probability exponentially increases with the number of missiles fired...and hence the advantage lies with the number of BVR missiles carried.


yeah right.

NICE ANSWER BRO GUD JOB

 

[paritosh]

I wouldn't say that sir, I just read what I find and save it if it's useful, I'm only as trustworthy as the articles I happen to come across.


I wouldn't go that far, the Sukhoi has a lot of thrust and TVC does give an advantage. But anybody with half a brain can see how a helmet-mounted targeting system and modern missiles can even the playing field to a certain extent. Same with data-links, AWACS, aerial refuelling, etc.
Some time ago I asked Gambit if it's true that AMRAAM can be launched by an F-16, with its radar switched off, being updated with radar data from an AWACS via Link-16. I received the response that indeed it can. I am confident that the PAF will find a way to make the JF-17 / SD-10 / KJ-200 combination work similarly if they haven't already, hence my belief that a secure data-link, AWACS support and good AAMs are more important than radar upgrades for the JF-17.


According to an ex-USAF avionics technician called Gambit who has worked on the F-111 and F-16C/D for years, you are wrong.

yeah and not just Gambit...I have read that on my own too...

 

[raveolution]

According to an ex-USAF avionics technician called Gambit who has worked on the F-111 and F-16C/D for years, you are wrong.

If that is indeed the case, then I stand corrected. My apologies.

So does that also mean that an MKI armed with a Novator K-100 (KS-172) fires its missile from 400 km, switches off its radar, and gets away before any harm comes to it, and the missile is guided to its target by the AWACS? This scenario may not even be required as the KS172 has its own terminal homing radar. Just a point that I wanted to clarify.

 

[PakShaheen79]

If that is indeed the case, then I stand corrected. My apologies.

So does that also mean that an MKI armed with a Novator K-100 (KS-172) fires its missile from 400 km, switches off its radar, and gets away before any harm comes to it, and the missile is guided to its target by the AWACS? This scenario may not even be required as the KS172 has its own terminal homing radar. Just a point that I wanted to clarify.

My friend everything is possible... It is science and anybody can adopt it according to requirements following some certain rules of science.

As far as KS-172 AAM is concerned you question can be answered more accurately after we have an idea about exact range of KS-172 own seekers\radar. Hope you get my point. Rest assured nothing is impossible if some principle is correct for US systems there is no reason why any other country can't adopt it.

 

[Novice09]

Didn't he asked for a source that JF 17 will get a new engine? That M88 source is 12 years old!
Also the source for RD-93 with TVC is from 2006, but the deal with China was signed in 2007 and without TVC!
So the same people who provides us AL 31TVC engine, PESA radar, R77 BVR missile for our Mki, offered you a slightly improved version of the engine we use in our old Mig 29 and offer us now the latest version of that engine with 3D TVC. I think it's clear who Russia loves more!

The biggest threat to Mki in near future will clearly be upg F16, new block 52 and J10. They will be more capable than JF 17, because of better radar and BVR missiles. And by the time there will be 250 upgraded JF 17, there will be 230 also upgraded Mkis don't you think so?

No.... f16 and J10 will be far better than MKIs (Just a joke).

But yes the aforementioned two FJs would be comparable with MKI. JF 17 is overestimated.

some people on this forum are comparing a future JF17 with current MKI and think that JF 17 would be upgraded whereas MKI would be with same configuration in future.

 

[ice_man]

this thread is going around in circles guys please give it a break!!!!

CONCLUSION:

1) MKI is a good heavy weight fighter

2) JF-17 is a good fighter for its size

3) MKI will have a fight on hand against multiple JFs!

4) in a one on one fight JF vs the MKI odds are against the JF

5) AWACS will act as force multipliers in a JF vs MKI scenario!

now please guys let' it rest for a while before we start all over again.....

 

[unicorn148]

thats a good conclusion i think pakistan must develop the jf 17 platform to make it a good multi role fighter