Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Owais]

There is no discussion. SU-30MKI beats JF-17 fair and square. Hell, the F16 Block 60 will beat the JF-17 anyday.

Mr Akhand,
please provide some reasonable arguments before making childish comments. I suggest you to read the whole thread so that you have some learning experience.

 

[sancho]

It has been shown that JF has every chance of taking out the big bad sukhoi from beyond visual range, the sukhoi has no significant advantage at that range when the JF is supported by AEW/C aircraft.
Close-in it is a different story - in dogfights the sukhoi holds a significant advantage that can be decisive - thrust to weight ratio. Whether it is actually more agile/manoeuvrable than the JF we cannot be sure, but with thrust vector control it is likely to hold advantages in that department also. However, the JF is stated to be equipped with a helmet mounted cueing system which should, in theory, negate some of the sukhoi's close-in advantages.

JF 17 and J10 will leave their advantages in BVR also against an old Mig 21 Bison with AEW/C support, cause it leaves everything to the range of the weapons. So if we compare the fighters, we have to compare them without AEW/C, just their radar, speed, maneuverability, weapons...
There should be no doubt about JF 17 & Mki WVR, like you said Mkis advantages in t/w ratio and maneuverability (it performs well against EF which is one of the most maneuverable fighters at the moment) are too big.
BVR is the chance for JF 17 and it might be equal to Mki. Low RCS and less radar range vs big RCS but long radar range.

JF 17 is a good fighter and better than LCA MK1, but I don't belive IAF bother to much about it. J10 and F16 are bigger threats and gives more to worry about.

 

[The Punisher]

can some1 post a comparison between them? i've read this thread and so far nothing really worth reading.

and plx use ONLY the current models (no mki with aesa and supercruise and no jf-17 with aesa, super avionics, tvc, and twin tails)

Here you go :

The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI (NATO reporting name Flanker-H) is a variant of the Sukhoi Su-30 jointly-developed by Russia's Sukhoi Corporation and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the Indian Air Force (IAF). It is an air superiority fighter which can also act as a multirole, strike fighter jet.

Su-30MkI

Crew: Two in tandem seating on KD-36DM ejection seats. Rear seat raised for better visibility.

Engine: Su-30K/MK-1; Two AL-31F turbofans, each rated at 12,500 kgf (27,550 lbs) of full afterburning thrust.
..........Su-30MKI; Two AL-31FP turbofans, each rated at 12,500 kgf (27,550 lbs) of full afterburning thrust.

Engine Thrust-To-Weight Ratio: 8.7:1

Maximum Speed: At sea level - 1350 km/h.
.......................Above 11,000 meters - Mach 2+

Service Ceiling: 17,500 meters.

Climb Rate: 230 m/s; 45,300 ft/min.

Maximum Range: The Su-30MKI with a single in-flight re-fuelling can go a distance of 8000 km; (~5000 miles). The maximum flight duration can be 10 hours --> in terms of the crew capabilities. The Su-30K/MK-1 with a normal fuel load of 5270 kg (~11,620 lbs.) can go a distance of 3000 km (~1900 miles) and with an in-flight re-fuelling the aircraft go a distance of 5200 km (3231 miles).

G Limit: +9.

Armament: The aircraft is fitted with a 30mm GSh-301 single-barrel gun which has a firing rate of 1500 - 1800 rds/min or 25 - 30 rds/sec. The gun has a maximum effective range of 1200 - 1800 meters (3937 - 5906 feet) against air targets and 200 - 800 meters (656 - 2625 feet) against ground targets. Has 170 rounds capacity with 150 rounds loaded. Can carry a variety of ordnance on 12 hard points, which can be increased to 14 by using multi-payload racks. For air-superiority missions, the Su-30MKI can carry air-to-air missiles, like the close-combat R-60MK and R-73RDM2 (up to six), the medium-range R-27RE1/TE1 (up to six/two) and the long-range R-77RVV-AE (up to six).

For surface-strike missions, the Su-30MKI can be armed with air-to-surface missiles like the Kh-25MP, Kh-29L/T (up to six), Kh-31A/P (up to six) and Kh-59/59M (up to two), as well as KAB-500KR/KAB-500OD (up to six) and KAB-1500KR/KAB-1500L (up to three) high-precision bombs which can be fitted with either laser or television guidance systems. Over 70 versions of guided and unguided weapon stores may be employed, which allows the aircraft to fly the most diverse tactical missions. The Su-30 can also carry a tactical nuclear payload.

Maximum External Stores Load: 8000 kg; 17,600 lbs. Max Take Off Wt: 34,500 kg. (38500 kg unconfirmed)

Self Defence: An integrated ECM system turns on the warning units that provide signals about incoming enemy missiles, a new generation radio recon set, active jamming facilities and radar & heat decoys. It also includes an electronic intelligence unit, a chaff and flare dispenser and a RWR system. Reportedly, the RWR system is an indigenous product developed by DRDO. The system is a modified version of the new RWR to be fitted on the upgraded MiG-21bis, known as the MiG-21UPG, and goes by the name Tarang.

Design Features: The first batch of eight Su-30MK-1s (SB 001 - SB 008), delivered to the IAF, have evolved from the Su-27K long range interceptor, a two-seat fighter derivative of the Su-27PU, which in itself is a two-seat fighter derivative of the Su-27UB trainer. These aircraft have the standard Su-27 radar, an in-flight refuelling capability, limited air-to-ground capability and a data-link system. The second batch, originally built to fulfill a cancelled Indonesian order, of ten Su-30Ks (SB 009 - SB 018) have limited PGM (Precision Guided Munitions) capability. The specifications below relate to the final Su-30MKI variant, unless specified otherwise.

Avionics: The Su-30MKI features an all-weather, digital multi-mode, dual frequency, forward facing NIIP N-011M radar which has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 targets and engage the 8 most threatening simultaneously. These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. The radar is combined with a helmet mounted sight system, which allows the pilot to turn his head in a 90º field of view, lock on to a target and launch the TVC-capable R-73RDM2 missile. The radar's forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation. The N-011M ensures a 20 metre resolution detection of large sea targets at a distance up to 400 km, and of small size ones - at a distance of 120 km.

In March 1998, the IAF signed a contract with the French electronics manufacturer, Sextant Avionique, to add six liquid colour displays, five MFD 55s and one MFD 66, for both the pilot and his WSO (Weapons System Officer), the Totem inertial guidance system with the GPS technology and the VEH 3000 holographic HUD. Officials from Sexatant have acknowledged that they have already validated the GPS system on Sukhoi aircraft. The six LCDs have a wide-screen and are shielded to make it readable even in bright sunlight. All the flight information is displayed on these four LCD displays which include one for piloting and navigation, a tactical situation indicator, and two for display systems information including operating modes and overall operation status. The aircraft is fitted with a satellite navigation system, which permits it to make flights in all weathers; day and night. The navigation complex comprises an inertial directional system and short- and long-range radio navigation systems. It also has a laser attitude and a heading reference system. An automatic flight control system makes all phases of its flight automatic, including the combat employment of its weapons.

 

[The Punisher]

can some1 post a comparison between them? i've read this thread and so far nothing really worth reading.

and plx use ONLY the current models (no mki with aesa and supercruise and no jf-17 with aesa, super avionics, tvc, and twin tails)

JF-17

The PAC JF-17 Thunder (Urdu: تھنڈ&#1585, also known in China as the Chengdu FC-1 Fierce Dragon (Chinese: 枭龙; pinyin: Xiāo Lóng),[1] is a light-weight multi-role combat aircraft jointly developed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex of Pakistan. The "JF" and "FC" designations stand for "Joint Fighter" and "Fighter China" respectively.

* Crew: 1 (2 for proposed twin-seater)
* Length: 14.0 m [44] (45.9 ft)
* Wingspan: 9.45 m [44] (31 ft)
* Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
* Wing area: 24.4 m² [44] (263 ft²)
* Empty weight: 6,411 kg [45] (14,134 lb)
* Loaded weight: 9,100 kg including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles [46] [47] (20,062 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg [46] (28,000 lb)
* Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan [48]
o Dry thrust: 49.4 kN [49] [50] (11,106 lbf)
o Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN [51] [52] (18,973 lbf)
* G-limit: +8.5 g [16]
* Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb) [53]

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 [54] [55]
* Combat radius: 1,352 km [56] (840 mi)
* Ferry range: 3,000 km [57] [58] (2,175 mi)
* Service ceiling: 16,700 m [59] (54,790 ft)
* Thrust/weight: 0.99 [60] [61]

Armament

* Guns: 1× 23mm internal GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon (can be replaced with 30mm GSh-30-2 twin-barrel cannon)
* Hardpoints: 7 in total (4× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance,
* Rockets: 57mm/90mm unguided rocket pods [64]
* Missiles:
o Air-to-air missiles: PL-5E, PL-9C, PL-12 / SD-10
o Air-to-surface missiles: anti-radiation missiles; anti-ship missiles (AM-39 Exocet); cruise missiles (Ra'ad ALCM); etc. [63]
* Bombs:
o Gravity/Unguided bombs: general purpose (Mk-82, Mk-84); anti-runway (Matra Durandal); etc. [62]
o Precision guided munitions: laser-guided (GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2); satellite-guided; etc. [62]
o Cluster bombs: anti-armour (CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye); etc. [62]

KLJ-7 radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets. The detection range for targets with a radar-cross section of up to 3 m2 is stated to be 120 km, or 50 km in look-down mode, while surface sea targets can be detected at up to 135 km. Target data is displayed on the multi-function display screens in the cockpit.


For pics, Check Military Photos and Videos Forum

 

[IceCold]

I would say that both fighters are meant for an entirely different role so their one to one comparision does not make sense. They will come up against each other but that won't be a one to one fight, there will be different factors involved and those factors would matter in the end which jet comes on top.
I would also add that those Pakistani friends that underestimate the mki should re read about what it can do or what it is capable of doing. It is a deadly lethal machine and we should not under estimate it under any circumstances and Indians do know how to use it to its maximum advantage. Rather then underestimating we should prepare to counter it effectively.

 

[Munir]

I would say that both fighters are meant for an entirely different role so their one to one comparision does not make sense. They will come up against each other but that won't be a one to one fight, there will be different factors involved and those factors would matter in the end which jet comes on top.
I would also add that those Pakistani friends that underestimate the mki should re read about what it can do or what it is capable of doing. It is a deadly lethal machine and we should not under estimate it under any circumstances and Indians do know how to use it to its maximum advantage. Rather then underestimating we should prepare to counter it effectively.

Being big is never and advantage. Unless you are a transportplane. It is a nice plane to see. Does nice shows. But having seen it more then a few times and knowing how it works and acts I think it is a rhino. Superb for a2g but I have my own thoughts when it somes to a2a.

 

[paritosh]

even the f-15 is bigger than the jf-17...and so is the raptor...

 

[Zob]

like i said the platform really doesn't matter its the armament that it carries....like the ARCHER or the AIM120....and people keep saying the MKI has a superior detection range my question is INDIA pakistan war scenario both sides would be agressive and both fighters would be able to paint the enemy within its border...someone said what if MKI is flying over agra my question is why is INDIA going to be defensive flying fighters over AGRA and not trying to fly them over HALWARA PATHANKOT or somewhere closer to our border after all in a war u have to be agressive....all i say is somehow make the JF-17 carry AIM120C5 and boy u got a deadly machine in ur hand!!!!

 

[SEAL]

RCS of MKI is 10m2 and MKI radar's detection range against the target of 5m2 is 80-120km

JF-17 radar's max detection range against the target of 5m2 is 75km..(rcs of mki is 10m2) which meanz JF-17 can detect MKI at its max range.

so it dosent matter what su-30mki has,,
JF-17 can shot down MKI..

 

[IceCold]

Being big is never and advantage. Unless you are a transportplane. It is a nice plane to see. Does nice shows. But having seen it more then a few times and knowing how it works and acts I think it is a rhino. Superb for a2g but I have my own thoughts when it somes to a2a.

I wasn't talking about size, my point was meant as far as the jets capabilities are concerned. We should not underestimate about what an MKI can or cannot do. However like i said in my previous post, both jets are meant for different roles and more so there will be different factors involved on which it will depend which jet comes out on top.
For example JF-17 in a defensive role will be under the umbrella of an AWAC which means it will get an early situation awareness as compared to MKI who will be in a hostile environment and not only has to look for SAMs but in coming PAF jets. However the situation will completely turn once JF-17 gets out from friendly skies and enter hostile skies where it will not have an advantage of an AWAC and that is why i recommend an AESA radar for JF-17.

 

[saiko]

Being big is never and advantage. Unless you are a transportplane. It is a nice plane to see. Does nice shows. But having seen it more then a few times and knowing how it works and acts I think it is a rhino. Superb for a2g but I have my own thoughts when it somes to a2a.

It's an advantage in three important ways:

1) That usually means you can carry more fuel.
2) That usually means you can carry more missiles/weapons.
3) That usually means you have a larger radome. Assuming equvialent levels of radar technology the bigger fighter will have a better radar.

Of course it usually also means a larger RCS, worse fuel-efficiency and higher operating costs.

 

[IceCold]

even the f-15 is bigger than the jf-17...and so is the raptor...

Don't bring in the raptor because its an entirely different case and it does not matter whether it is bigger then JF or smaller, its stealth and no one will know about its presence until you have a missile on your tail and that will be too late.

 

[Munir]

1) That usually means you can carry more fuel.

You do not have to travel to other side of China... The battle is on the border and you surely do not want weight that is making your agility as good as a gigantic fueltanker. Besides that, IFR is just as handy to have range...

2) That usually means you can carry more missiles/weapons.

You wil get one shot for BVR.. Then within less then minute the second chance to shoot WVR (if you still are flying. You fire your BVR around 70% of the range... Do you need lots of weapons? That is why the F16 (block52-60) do not carry a lot more then 2 bvr and 2 wvr... This is the most impressive dogfighter. And let us see how often the other tough guy (f15) used more then 1 bvr...

3) That usually means you have a larger radome. Assuming equvialent levels of radar technology the bigger fighter will have a better radar.

Bigger radome is bigger RCS... Bigger radar is bigger flash light that the opponent can see...

>>>Of course it usually also means a larger RCS, worse fuel-efficiency and higher operating costs.

Hell yeah...

 

[mean_bird]

uhh i dont think u read the mki radar info, it says it can detect the smallest (1-2 m2 at 120 km) 5 km is freaking huge.

and Munir

having more fuel does help, say ur in a dogfight and a fighter is escaping from you while ur fuel is almost out, if u have more fuel u can run after it and get a kill.

also more bvr weapons is also good, say ur a lone fighter going up against 2-3 fighters, if ur loaded with bvr and able to engage more than 1 u have an advantage.

i dont think u should underestimate the mki so much. NEVER underestimate, always overestimate.

You do know that planes engage with each other after very careful planning and with a clear strategy. Its not like some plane is roaming in the wild that comes into contact with another.

Normally planes make a formation comprising of different types of planes in different configurations. For example, USAF practices F-15 and F-16 combo formations.

Secondly, more fuel is meant for "deep strike missions" and not for pursuing other fighters. JF-17 has a 1300km combat radius which is fairly enough. You do not just go pursuing other fighters for hundreds or thousands of kilometers because you do not want to enter into enemy area. Most encounters will take place on the border area or near it. Fuel limitations for the purpose of pursuing doesn't even arise.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Originally Posted by Tiger
uhh i dont think u read the mki radar info, it says it can detect the smallest (1-2 m2 at 120 km) 5 km is freaking huge.

and Munir

having more fuel does help, say ur in a dogfight and a fighter is escaping from you while ur fuel is almost out, if u have more fuel u can run after it and get a kill.

also more bvr weapons is also good, say ur a lone fighter going up against 2-3 fighters, if ur loaded with bvr and able to engage more than 1 u have an advantage.

i dont think u should underestimate the mki so much. NEVER underestimate, always overestimate.

Read about the Mirage and Harrier fight in the end of Falklands war.