Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[thunder rules]

thunder is being improved with enthusiasm and will be the back bone of paf and surly the future variants of thunder will be far more lethal then todays version just little western support is required , its just 2 years for thunder to get in air and its performing so well and we are comparing it with 15 years old developed sukhoi mki , that is not fair for thunder its just a beginning and it has a long way to. and those who are underestimating jf 17 are the biggest ignorants on earth and they should get a life..! when jf 17 can be so much a mature fighter combat 7 years after first prototype flew in 2003 then their is no denying that jf 17 will be the one of the best in paf inventory.!

 

[Storm Force]

Thunder is New only in Age

Its Technology is THE PROBLEM.

Its has no composites in its design ie Gripen Rafael Typhoon & LCA tejas. Its built using far cheaper older material ie metal alloys.. These are weaker require more bolts and are heavier in weight.

It carries a old styl;e mechanical scanning radar MSA rather than phased aray radars like SU30 MKI or AESA LIKE apg79/81 ETC.

The engine is single engined and will lack brute power speed and range of twin engined fighters.

Engine design itself lack things that make the difference in air combat like TVC as per F22 & SU30MKI.

Thunder is NEW thats true BUT IN ORDER to keep the plane very low in cost ie under $15m each compared to all other fighters be it F16/52/SU30MKI/ GRIPEN TYPHOON costing upwards of $50m each they have have cut the modern hitech parts that could make the Thunder better.

Stil its here and ready far better than the LCA frm India

 

[thunder rules]

Thunder is New only in Age

Its Technology is THE PROBLEM.

with the passage of time it should get mature as paf will get expertise in this regard as far as technology is concern pakistan is operating china for quite some time now and hence satisfied but western technology is also desirable to paf that is the reason they are doing efforts to acquire western assistance which would enhance the capabilities of jf 17 to a great extent.

 

[aimarraul]

What I wanted to know is if the following is a viable scenario

A phalcon 150 Km inside Indian territory is able to paint a 17 upto 200-250 km inside Pakistan territory. So a JF 17 about 100 km inside Pakistan air space gets painted by the Phalcon and a SU 30 from about 80-90 KM away from 17 lets loose a BVRAAM and turns back well before JF 17 can lock on to it and lets the phalcon guide the BVRAAM in..

unless SU-30 and phalcon only plan to shoot from india's territory and expect other side also play in your way ,your scenario is so childish in the real war ，once your jets cross the border,they are not just facing your opponent's fighters and awacs but a entire air defense system,your jets probably don't even have a chance to reach their destination or go back to the base， BVRAAM is already widely used in most 3th gen jets.take china as example ,with the help from KJ-200,even china's J-8F can dig the best potential of our SD-10A.and PAF is not only have this same capability ,they jets can also fit with U.S missile,it's common consensus that U.S missile have better accuracy than russia's

 

[Dark Angel]

unless SU-30 and phalcon only plan to shoot from india's territory and expect other side also play in your way ,your scenario is so childish in the real war ，once your jets cross the border,they are not just facing your opponent's fighters and awacs but a entire air defense system,your jets probably don't even have a chance to reach their destination or go back to the base， BVRAAM is already widely used in most 3th gen jets.take china as example ,with the help from KJ-200,even china's J-8F can dig the best potential of our SD-10A.and PAF is not only have this same capability ,they jets can also fit with U.S missile,it's common consensus that U.S missile have better accuracy than russia's

Wooo man where did that come from

 

[JonAsad]

JF-17's rcs is unknown. F16 C/D(newer F16 with reduced rcs) has an rcs of 1.2 m2.

So I expect JF-17's rcs to be around 1.5 m2 at least.



According to this image from an analysis of various radars, MKI should be able to get a lock on at a range of 80NMI ie 148 km.

That is a LOT.

Even if PAF is able to reduce its rcs to 0.5 (highly highly unlikely), even then MKI would be able to detect it at a range of 104 km.

Its overkill. Even if JF-17 detects MKI, it won't be able to shoot it down first.

i dont think it is wise to fire a missile from maximum range u have to come close to give the missile a chance specially if the target is manuvering or taking evasive actions other wise the missile will run out of fuel.. R 27P or R77 has effective max range of almost 120 km where are u getting these extra 28 km ??

Detection is not an advantage any more AWACs are in the town ..the point is if u can hit the enemy wthout being hit either by air or ground missiles.. which i think in this modern era is impossible, unless u are somewhere alone with just su30 mki and jf-17 engaging i agree here its an advantage.

 

[aimarraul]

Wooo man where did that come from

have you ever heard the "two jets and 9 missing missiles" story.i don't know how good their own missiles though

 

[JonAsad]

Come on yaar !!!!!!!!!!! Don't cry

May be u don't understand the meaning of "Smart skin".
And ya about That "LASER" thingi....... India is working on it under "Anti balastic missile" Prog. u will see it in 10 years from now(But it's going to be ground base)............

And ya Pakistan will use "MAN MADE( Made in china)" Equipments even after we get """"laser beam technology! just like the star ship enterprise from star trek"""

yashraj uhv lost it man.. next thing u gona claim is that u r an alien sent to earth in the ****in star ship enterprise with laser beam technology to log into PDF and make stupid comments on the thread neamely Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

 

[jagjitnatt]

i dont think it is wise to fire a missile from maximum range u have to come close to give the missile a chance specially if the target is manuvering or taking evasive actions other wise the missile will run out of fuel.. R 27P or R77 has effective max range of almost 120 km where are u getting these extra 28 km ??

Detection is not an advantage any more AWACs are in the town ..the point is if u can hit the enemy wthout being hit either by air or ground missiles.. which i think in this modern era is impossible, unless u are somewhere alone with just su30 mki and jf-17 engaging i agree here its an advantage.

all is fine but I guess both Indians and Pakistanis are on cloud 9 with respect to their AWACS.

I guess we need a reality check.

No of AWACS aircraft - 2.

Now how are these aircraft gonna be available everywhere??
Assume Erieye is at Karachi and Lahore, and IAF strikes in Gilgit, what would you do?? Surprise element can be a problem too. Also the endurance of the aircraft matters. And the aircraft needs to be refueled too. Not all of the AWACS can be in air.

Also these are expensive toys and they won't be used for little skirmishes. And there always is a risk of losing the aircraft.

Throughout the discussion AWACS is being boasted but nowhere does one take into account that they can be shot down using long range missiles and IAF has one - Novator.

Novator K-100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What if AWACS is shot using a Air- Surface missile while its on ground??

Not just a missile, various tricks can be played to down an AWACS too.

Russia is working on S-500 SAMs with range of 500km. India would definitely be interested in those. What happens in case of those??

To achieve 100% availability of AWACS, PAF needs at least 10-12 aircraft, which it is lacking right now.

So before 2030, the detection range of combat aircraft are very important. Lets not glorify our AWACS too much and face the reality before its too late.

 

[thunder rules]

pakistan will going to have around 6-8 awacs i blv, 4 from china and 4 from Sweden

 

[DeathGod]

pakistan will going to have around 6-8 awacs i blv, 4 from china and 4 from Sweden

Source?

I dont understand why we are debating/comparing two fighters of entirely different class. For god's sake JF-17 doesnt even have a decent radar . JF-17 is at max equivalent to Mig-21 bison of IAF .

If I compare JF-17 with Mig-21 bison then Mig-21 will win as far as BVR goes. JF-17 will definitely have an advantage on lower levels of cieling. Mig-21 excels as the altitude gets higher and higher.

Also the SAM's wont allow JF-17/F-16 to operate in ranges where they are in their element.

The truth is PAF is definitely facing a big problem. With so many aircrafts to be retired, no real experience in using BVR and lack of funds PAF is looking at the wrong end of the barrel. It will have to come up with a surprising and maybe bold strategy to counter IAF. ( including Grippen NS and maybe some acquisition of JSF may try and retain some sembalance to PAF)

 

[thunder rules]

Source?

I dont understand why we are debating/comparing two fighters of entirely different class. For god's sake JF-17 doesnt even have a decent radar . JF-17 is at max equivalent to Mig-21 bison of IAF .

If I compare JF-17 with Mig-21 bison then Mig-21 will win as far as BVR goes. JF-17 will definitely have an advantage on lower levels of cieling. Mig-21 excels as the altitude gets higher and higher.

read my earlier post i have said jf 17 need to get far mature in order to catch sukhoi 30mki, and its obvious sukhoi is a developed aircraft and jf 17 thunder is still being undergoing test and evaluation phases in china but yet its performing good. and currect specification of thunder is of course inferior to sukhoi but paf is trying its level best to improve , thunder its just a 7 year old baby, give it some time to mature . current chinies avionics are good but once its integrated with western avionics it will be lethal machine , just just some thing like when u sukhoi was in its early stages it was not as lethal what its today , same goes for thunder, have patience for 3-4 years .

abt awacs comon dude every knows that paf has a plane to obtain 8 awacs , u can even search abt it u will easily find info regarding it.!

 

[aks]

all is fine but I guess both Indians and Pakistanis are on cloud 9 with respect to their AWACS.

I guess we need a reality check.

No of AWACS aircraft - 2.

Now how are these aircraft gonna be available everywhere??
Assume Erieye is at Karachi and Lahore, and IAF strikes in Gilgit, what would you do?? Surprise element can be a problem too. Also the endurance of the aircraft matters. And the aircraft needs to be refueled too. Not all of the AWACS can be in air.

Also these are expensive toys and they won't be used for little skirmishes. And there always is a risk of losing the aircraft.

Throughout the discussion AWACS is being boasted but nowhere does one take into account that they can be shot down using long range missiles and IAF has one - Novator.

Novator K-100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What if AWACS is shot using a Air- Surface missile while its on ground??

Not just a missile, various tricks can be played to down an AWACS too.

Russia is working on S-500 SAMs with range of 500km. India would definitely be interested in those. What happens in case of those??

To achieve 100% availability of AWACS, PAF needs at least 10-12 aircraft, which it is lacking right now.

So before 2030, the detection range of combat aircraft are very important. Lets not glorify our AWACS too much and face the reality before its too late.

u wana say only russians are working n chinese are just sitting n resting lol and about number of awacs we will have more awacs in future than india INSHALLAH

 

[aks]

Source?

I dont understand why we are debating/comparing two fighters of entirely different class. For god's sake JF-17 doesnt even have a decent radar . JF-17 is at max equivalent to Mig-21 bison of IAF .

If I compare JF-17 with Mig-21 bison then Mig-21 will win as far as BVR goes. JF-17 will definitely have an advantage on lower levels of cieling. Mig-21 excels as the altitude gets higher and higher.

Also the SAM's wont allow JF-17/F-16 to operate in ranges where they are in their element.

The truth is PAF is definitely facing a big problem. With so many aircrafts to be retired, no real experience in using BVR and lack of funds PAF is looking at the wrong end of the barrel. It will have to come up with a surprising and maybe bold strategy to counter IAF. ( including Grippen NS and maybe some acquisition of JSF may try and retain some sembalance to PAF)

yeah pakistan is having really big problem lol paf is just sitting n watching india they dont have any plan to counter slumyz sources are in awacs thread go search them

 

[Gene]

u wana say only russians are working n chinese are just sitting n resting lol and about number of awacs we will have more awacs in future than india INSHALLAH

You said that Pakistan will have more AEW&CS than India in future

1- india has ordered 3 Phalcon AEW&C radar systems in March 2004 (2 already arrived, one awaiting).
2- IAF negotiating for another 3 Phalcon AEW&C radar.
3- DRDO is developing its own AEW&C radar system based on Embraer ERJ 145 jet.( 3 Embraer ERJ 145 jets procured for $ 300 million, The aim is to deploy these 3 AEW & C aircraft by 2013,which will have extended AESA arrays for better range.
4- IAF could procure as much as another 6 DRDO AEW&C radar systems, which will back up the 6 Phalcon AEW&C

So, total could be ( 3 Phalcon AEW&C radar+3 planned+3 DRDO awacs planned for deployment in 2013+6 future plan ) = 15 to induct before 2020.