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Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

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The Su-30 is not low observable because the Russians currently CANNOT design and produce such an aircraft. To say the Russians 'never tried' imply they could, which is not true.

Really? Care to show the readership which points in the radar low observability, aka 'clutter' region, that YOU deemed to be unreliable?

This is peace time, which many people who are desperate in trying to downplay the threats posed by US 'stealth' aircrafts often confused with war time. In peace time operations, many safety and equipment longevity procedures and programs are strictly observed so that when the need arises -- war -- we will have warriors and their equipments trained just short of full combat capabilities.

If that is from personal experience I feel sorry for whatever air force you are serving or have served. You watched too many B-rated war movies where apparently the radar scope can inform the pilot exactly what lies beyond their visual capabilities. I can tell you from personal experience that nothing comes even halfway close to your fantasy. The most anyone can INFER from a radar display as to what lies beyond is based upon target altitude, speed and aspect angle, not the size of the return. The US Navy is transitioning to an all F-18 carrier air wing. Between an EF-18 and a ground strike configured F-18, there will be almost no discernable RCS differences between them. The point here is that the size of the radar return is almost irrelevant unless it is accompanied with certain target flight characteristics that is consistent with a type of aircraft. So if an Su-30 is flying at the same at the same speed, altitude and heading as the giant C-5, it would be reasonable to assume that there are two transports of different sizes, not a fighter and a transport. Now if both radar returns are flying at Mach 2 when it is known that a certain RCS figure is consistent with a slow transport, then either the enemy has a new weapon in the area or that one's own radar is on the fritz.

Your comment remain silly in that somehow the size of a radar return is indicative of a specific aircraft and that alone would be able to intimidate an opponent into avoiding a fight.

Lol and now to you gambit, it looks like your taking all this very personally but thats fine.
1) Only USA currently operates jets that claim to be truly stealth aircraft. The Russians have already built and tested the su-47 which has reduced RCS and are almost in the final stages of design of the PAKFA which will be true "Stealth aircraft" , if you know anything about the history of aviation you would know how USA and Russia have followed different paths when its comes to jets. Stealth is still a very much debatable quality of an aircraft because of the cost attached and the actual effectiveness of it. But i wont debate that here as its not a thread about that. I can give you hard facts also but then my replies would be as long as essays lol

2)If you have read other thread you would know about the huge maintenance cost of "Stealth" aircraft, which is one of the huge reasons that the F-22 is not deployed anywhere in the world. I will post you articles from very credible sources telling you about the cost attached to these aircraft and how they are 10 times that of normal aircrafts. Being so expensive and difficult to maintain the f-22is to sensitive to be used in even Iraq because losing a jet that cost so much wont be very fun lol Being a military professional correct me if i am wrong, yourself i hope you know that. Peace time or not all aircraft have to meet a certain availability criteria as per USA standards and currently the F-22 is not even close to the time it needs to spend in the air. I can again post many articles and videos but that again would make this very long but if anyone wants more details please feel free to msg me anytime lol.

3) LOL i dont watch any b-grade movies and i hope you are not also because i guess you dint understand that when i said that if a jet sees the MKI on its radar it should run i was being sarcastic lol. Thanks for educating me but i know enough to know what i am saying. My point was that by comparing the JF-17 to a MKI you are truly underestimating the MKI and if ever i am in a JF-17 or F-7 or mirage 3 (jets that PAF has), and i get into a dogfight or a BVR fight with a suspected MKI the chances for a win for anyone of the PAF jets is slim to none.

My comments aren’t silly its yours that are not backed on any logic please give me facts about the JF-17 about how its better or even in the same league at a MKI only then i can agree which i am really waiting for. Till now I have not seen even one reason why the JF-17 wont survive let alone beat the MKI lol Again refrain from making personal comments and stick to the topic.:cheers:
 
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Lol and now to you gambit, it looks like your taking all this very personally but thats fine.
Now why would you say that? Do not like a challenge to your claim?

1) Only USA currently operates jets that claim to be truly stealth aircraft. The Russians have already built and tested the su-47 which has reduced RCS and are almost in the final stages of design of the PAKFA which will be true "Stealth aircraft" ,...
The PAKFA seems to be perpetually 'in the final stages' year after year. The Russians claimed the Su-47's RCS to be .3 m2, below the F-16, which I doubt. The F-117's RCS is estimated to be between .001-0.0001 m2. These are frontal RCS figures. Until the Russians have at the least a flying version of the F-117, not necessarily a deployable squadron, I would not put too much stock into what the Russians claim about the PAKFA.

...if you know anything about the history of aviation you would know how USA and Russia have followed different paths when its comes to jets.
Yes...The Soviets/Russians have a lower technology level than we do.

Stealth is still a very much debatable quality of an aircraft because of the cost attached and the actual effectiveness of it. But i wont debate that here as its not a thread about that.
Really? Once again you avoided the question of presenting your arguments on the efficacy of 'stealth'. The Iraqi military, who used Soviet equipments, would certain disagree with you. Cost? Losing a war is costlier than building a military capable of winning a war.

I can give you hard facts also but then my replies would be as long as essays lol
I suggest you read up on some of my explanations and debunkings of Soviet/Russian and Chinese junks here.

2)If you have read other thread you would know about the huge maintenance cost of "Stealth" aircraft, which is one of the huge reasons that the F-22 is not deployed anywhere in the world. I will post you articles from very credible sources telling you about the cost attached to these aircraft and how they are 10 times that or normal aircrafts. Being a military professional yourself i hope you know that. Peace time or not all aircraft have to meet a certain availability criteria as per USA standards and currently the F-22 is not even close to the time it needs to spend in the air. I can again post many articles and videos but that again would make this very long but if anyone wants more details please feel free to msg me anytime lol.
I read enough of those news reports about maintenance requirements and cost of the current generation of US VLO aircrafts. Maintenance cost in no way affect the behavior of radar waves on a body and the efficacy of a design in combat. This is a red herring argument.

3) LOL i dont watch any b-grade movies and i hope you are not also because i guess you dint understand that when i said that if a jet sees the MKI on its radar it should run i was being sarcastic lol. Thanks for educating me but i know enough to know what i am saying.
I doubt that.

My point was that by comparing the JF-17 to a MKI you are truly underestimating the MKI and if ever i am in a JF-17 or F-7 or mirage 3 (jets that PAF has), and i get into a dogfight or a BVR fight with a suspected MKI the chances for a win for anyone of the PAF jets is slim to none.
I am not comparing Chinese junks to Russian junks. I have ten years of avionics in the USAF, including actual testings of Soviet avionics. I also have nearly ten years of weapons testing and development in my civilian life. You tread into my area of experience when you make the silly claim that the Su-30's RCS was for intimidation purposes. No aircraft is ever designed to intentionally emphasize its RCS. The truth is that though opponents may be at parity with each other, neither would dare risk losing a fight by engaging each other in the WVR regime. So even if the JF-17 is inferior to the Su-30 in many aspects, the Su-30 pilot would not engage a pair of JF-17s unless he is mutually supported via numerical superiority. He would not hope that his large RCS on the JF-17's scopes would frighten off the JF-17's pilots. If the Su-30 pilot realized that he is outnumbered, the wiser thing for him to do is go home or call for assistance BEFORE taking on the fight. A pair of JF-17s in a 2km spread would be lethal for a lone Su-30 in a WVR engagement. Once the Su-30 pilot is busy with a JF-17, he would be on a the receiving end of heat seeker from the other JF-17, no matter how capable is his aircraft.

There is something called a 'radar resolution cell' and I made a couple comments about it before here...

Definition: radar resolution cell
radar resolution cell: The volume of space that is occupied by a radar pulse and that is determined by the pulse duration and the horizontal and vertical beamwidths of the transmitting radar. Note: The radar cannot distinguish between two separate objects that lie within the same resolution cell.
A pair of JF-17s could be in a tight enough formation that both would show up as a single target on the Su-30's radar scope IF the Su-30's radar beam is broader than the JF-17s' formation, and keep in mind that this is a wave that spread with distance known as 'beam dispersal'...

RADAR BEAM CHARACTERISTICS
As pulses travel away from the antenna, the beam takes on a cone-like appearance and expands in all directions. This expansion or beam broadening increases pulse volume, resulting in decreased signal strength (fig. 2-11). Distant targets appear distorted, in fact, they may not be seen at all. Beam broadening also causes "partial beam filling," which implies that distant targets occupy proportionally less of an expanded beam. Thus, the true characteristics of a target may be hidden or altered during display.
A flight of Su-30s could be seriously outnumbered and they would not even know it until too late. There are proven tactics that exploit weaknesses inherent in everything that would allow a seemingly inferior foe to win. The Su-30's larger RCS is a liability, not an asset as you naively believed and proposed here.
 
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Hi gambit,

1. Can Su30 (or any aircraft) use its radar to full potential (seek,lock,fire) while its jammer is in jamming mode ?

2. How jammers work, especially in the context that Su30 utilizes most modern Israeli jammers.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Now why would you say that? Do not like a challenge to your claim?

The PAKFA seems to be perpetually 'in the final stages' year after year. The Russians claimed the Su-47's RCS to be .3 m2, below the F-16, which I doubt. The F-117's RCS is estimated to be between .001-0.0001 m2. These are frontal RCS figures. Until the Russians have at the least a flying version of the F-117, not necessarily a deployable squadron, I would not put too much stock into what the Russians claim about the PAKFA.

Yes...The Soviets/Russians have a lower technology level than we do.

Really? Once again you avoided the question of presenting your arguments on the efficacy of 'stealth'. The Iraqi military, who used Soviet equipments, would certain disagree with you. Cost? Losing a war is costlier than building a military capable of winning a war.

I suggest you read up on some of my explanations and debunkings of Soviet/Russian and Chinese junks here.

I read enough of those news reports about maintenance requirements and cost of the current generation of US VLO aircrafts. Maintenance cost in no way affect the behavior of radar waves on a body and the efficacy of a design in combat. This is a red herring argument.

I doubt that.

I am not comparing Chinese junks to Russian junks. I have ten years of avionics in the USAF, including actual testings of Soviet avionics. I also have nearly ten years of weapons testing and development in my civilian life. You tread into my area of experience when you make the silly claim that the Su-30's RCS was for intimidation purposes. No aircraft is ever designed to intentionally emphasize its RCS. The truth is that though opponents may be at parity with each other, neither would dare risk losing a fight by engaging each other in the WVR regime. So even if the JF-17 is inferior to the Su-30 in many aspects, the Su-30 pilot would not engage a pair of JF-17s unless he is mutually supported via numerical superiority. He would not hope that his large RCS on the JF-17's scopes would frighten off the JF-17's pilots. If the Su-30 pilot realized that he is outnumbered, the wiser thing for him to do is go home or call for assistance BEFORE taking on the fight. A pair of JF-17s in a 2km spread would be lethal for a lone Su-30 in a WVR engagement. Once the Su-30 pilot is busy with a JF-17, he would be on a the receiving end of heat seeker from the other JF-17, no matter how capable is his aircraft.

There is something called a 'radar resolution cell' and I made a couple comments about it before here...

Definition: radar resolution cell

A pair of JF-17s could be in a tight enough formation that both would show up as a single target on the Su-30's radar scope IF the Su-30's radar beam is broader than the JF-17s' formation, and keep in mind that this is a wave that spread with distance known as 'beam dispersal'...

RADAR BEAM CHARACTERISTICS

A flight of Su-30s could be seriously outnumbered and they would not even know it until too late. There are proven tactics that exploit weaknesses inherent in everything that would allow a seemingly inferior foe to win. The Su-30's larger RCS is a liability, not an asset as you naively believed and proposed here.

Gambit your experience is truly overwhelming and i respect that. You do make a good point when it comes to radar resolution cells and 2 JF-17 sticking together but here we are comparing one jf-17 to one su-30 MKI, if there are 2 JF-17 then there will be 2 su-30's. Keep in mind that India will be inducting more SU-30MKI that the amount of JF-17 Pakistan will have. It is best to compare them one on one and not use scenarios because then i can also give scenarios where the MKI will have the upper hand no matter what.

Now in regards to Russian tech, i never said and you can have a look at my post before, that Russian's have better tech, I have always said that Russia and USA have followed different paths when it comes to aviation tech. I would not like to quote my experience but I can easily say that you take on Russian tech is not right. Just by saying that Russian tech is not good wont be right. I do except that the Americans are easily the winners but the amount of resources available to them is far greater than the Soviets ever had. As the Russian make a resurgence now and with many high end projects coming to the table now, i am gussing the gap in tech will be filled soon enough. The PAKFA is in its last stages of design and the first prototype will role out early next year as confirmed by many newspapers and Russian news agencies. Even the project 1.27 fifth generation aircraft is within a couple of years of being completed. I really doubt the F-22 claims of 100:1 ratio and all that has been said about it. It is truly a magnificent jet with no comparison but it and most usa fighters have not been up against even comparable aircrafts till now so just plainly saying that they are better than Russian tech is not fair. Currently in the USA aresenal expect for the F-22 I dont see any other fighter jet that is any better than a su-30 or 35 or mig 35, but again the Americans are still far off and it will take sometime to catch up. The cost of stealth is debatable and i will not try to argue that because you can have different takes on it. I can just say that there are other ways to win a war than spending billions of dollars on one jet. When you say "junk" i really hope you are referring to Chinese tech and not russian because then you are wrong. The Chinese jets are basically copy's of other jets in the world which either they cannot afford or have sanctions against. The jf-17, j-10, j-11, j-7 are all copies of either Russian or western jets which i dont think even you are refute. I think this argument about Russian vs usa will go on forever, all i can say that is lets stick to the topic and compare the MKI with the JF-17(however stupid that is) and not loose sight of the topic. I respect your experience and the details you give are really nice, i can do that also but then the thread would get too technical and no one would understand anything but msg me personally anytime and i will bore you to death with all details possible lol :cheers: mate, im just here to have fun not start another cold war lol :cheers:
 
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Gambit your experience is truly overwhelming and i respect that. You do make a good point when it comes to radar resolution cells and 2 JF-17 sticking together but here we are comparing one jf-17 to one su-30 MKI, if there are 2 JF-17 then there will be 2 su-30's.

Read the Topic name again! there is no 1 on 1 competition. the situation will be: 2-4 MKI(with migs or Mirage2000) intrude in Pakistani airspace which will be intercepted by 4-6 JF17 and 2-4 F16s. PAF will send more numbers of JF than incoming intruders. I always said that JF17 is an ADF (in its current configuration) and PAF will use FC20 and F16s for deep strike roles. comparing JF 1 on 1 with MKi is not fair as MKi have more AAM on its hardpoints so it can take more shots on JF and have better chances to win but that doesn't mean that MKi is invincible in front of JF17
 
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Read the Topic name again! there is no 1 on 1 competition. the situation will be: 2-4 MKI(with migs or Mirage2000) intrude in Pakistani airspace which will be intercepted by 4-6 JF17 and 2-4 F16s. PAF will send more numbers of JF than incoming intruders. I always said that JF17 is an ADF (in its current configuration) and PAF will use FC20 and F16s for deep strike roles. comparing JF 1 on 1 with MKi is not fair as MKi have more AAM on its hardpoints so it can take more shots on JF and have better chances to win but that doesn't mean that MKi is invincible in front of JF17

lol the topic name is Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight, I dont see where it says that the JF-17 will have more numbers lol. Again scenarios which can go both ways, you cannot compare scenarios again because it does not make any sense, i can give you a scenario where 4 MKI vs 4 jf-17, tell me who will win, like this is stupid to compare using all these scenarios. The only way to compare is using one on one comparison because thats the most fair way of comparing. And as you said 1 vs 1 JF-17 has almost no chance then i guess we already have an answer about who is better but again the MKI has many more advantages over the JF-17 than just the number of hard points or missiles it uses you can read any one of my previous post for that.
 
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Maybe the Thread should be retitled

PAF VERSIS SU30MKI IN A AIR FIGHT

The reason i suggest this change is because the standard answer to taking on and defeating a su30mki seems to be

That the JF17 will out number the mki.. because the IAF will be over PAF air space. This means it will not be 1 versis 1 or 2 v 2

That PAF will give JF17 Awacs support. ToTAKE away MKI bars radar advantage
That JF17 wil be supported by F16/52. Added hi tech support like a force multiplier.


Everybody is being very presumtious in this scenario.

Firstly they assume somehow PAF will have more thunders then india,s 230 su30 mki ..

Secondly they seem to consider that IAF may not have awacs support in attack mode.

That their will be no accompanying support fighter like mirage2000-5
0r mig29smt/k or even a MMRCA like F18 super hornet.

The thread is it a little lopsided.

PAF WILL have to consider alot more than just 230 mki in the near future if their is a full scale war from the IAF
 
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Firstly they assume somehow PAF will have more thunders then india,s 230 su30 mki ..
And you will be flying all 230 at once? I doubt it. You won't be flying more than a few formations at a time, especially since it takes upwards of 60 seconds between launches (Red Flag USA, something to do with Foreign Object Damage). Heck, since now you've moved 'em close to the border, stranded Su-30MKIs will litter the skies and PAF pilots may just have the time of their lives. That's not presumptuous, it's facts, straight from a USAF Colonel's mouth. In a game where split-seconds make all the difference, 60 seconds is decades.

Secondly they seem to consider that IAF may not have awacs support in attack mode.
And do what with them. Can't bring them over Pakistani airspace, they'll get shot to hell. If they loiter within their own boundaries, close to us, we might just sneak by. So you'll keep them well back, so I don't know what you mean by "support in attack mode".

That their will be no accompanying support fighter like mirage2000-5 0r mig29smt/k or even a MMRCA like F18 super hornet.
Now you're talking. These aircraft the PAF would gladly take one-on-one if needed. Yes, even if we're talking the mighty F-18, PAF F-16 pilots would pray for a dogfight. The JF-17, according to PAF pilots, is just as capable in the pit.

PAF WILL have to consider alot more than just 230 mki in the near future if their is a full scale war from the IAF
Again, 230 Su-30MKIs will be a worry, but not all at once. And what of the Chinese border? will you leave it open? You need your aircraft spread in all directions, so the numerical superiority, relative to the PAF, is grossly inflated (much like the economy, I might add).

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By the way, what ticks me off is the fact that, for some reason, the the Su-30MKI is considered the heavy favourite in 1-vs-1 dogfight compared to any aircraft in the PAF inventory. We forget that the F-16 is the greatest conventional dogfighting aircraft every produce, and that the Cobra maneuver, the Super Cobra maneuver, the Hyper Cobra maneuver and whatever else the Russians invent, are useless in Air Combat (according to experts with big degrees and bigger books). I mean, two words defeat any Indian argument of Su-30MKI immortality, Red Flag!
 
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And you will be flying all 230 at once? I doubt it. You won't be flying more than a few formations at a time, especially since it takes upwards of 60 seconds between launches (Red Flag USA, something to do with Foreign Object Damage). Heck, since now you've moved 'em close to the border, stranded Su-30MKIs will litter the skies and PAF pilots may just have the time of their lives. That's not presumptuous, it's facts, straight from a USAF Colonel's mouth. In a game where split-seconds make all the difference, 60 seconds is decades.


And do what with them. Can't bring them over Pakistani airspace, they'll get shot to hell. If they loiter within their own boundaries, close to us, we might just sneak by. So you'll keep them well back, so I don't know what you mean by "support in attack mode".


Now you're talking. These aircraft the PAF would gladly take one-on-one if needed. Yes, even if we're talking the mighty F-18, PAF F-16 pilots would pray for a dogfight. The JF-17, according to PAF pilots, is just as capable in the pit.


Again, 230 Su-30MKIs will be a worry, but not all at once. And what of the Chinese border? will you leave it open? You need your aircraft spread in all directions, so the numerical superiority, relative to the PAF, is grossly inflated (much like the economy, I might add).

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By the way, what ticks me off is the fact that, for some reason, the the Su-30MKI is considered the heavy favourite in 1-vs-1 dogfight compared to any aircraft in the PAF inventory. We forget that the F-16 is the greatest conventional dogfighting aircraft every produce, and that the Cobra maneuver, the Super Cobra maneuver, the Hyper Cobra maneuver and whatever else the Russians invent, are useless in Air Combat (according to experts with big degrees and bigger books). I mean, two words defeat any Indian argument of Su-30MKI immortality, Red Flag!

DEAR PAFAce;sir!
thanks for indepth, lock on!
HERE comes my, SALUTE for you!:pakistan::pakistan::sniper::sniper:
 
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Lol now that is what you call stupid lol Do you even have any idea what the LCA is capable of lol The LCA program has been totally developed from 0 by India alone not like the JF-17 which was made by China ( which itself is copied from a previously failed designs of which i will give you more info later on ). China made 90% of the aircraft with pakistani's scientist only contributing a small amount or just finance. The LCA has totally been designed and tested by the DRDO and is a classified 4.5 generation aircraft and also uses composite material. It has completed over 530 hours of testing with over 1000 test flights. LOL the JF-17 was manufactured in China totally with minimal Pakistani involvement and when compared to the amount of work done on the LCA, it is a joke lol So please dont ever criticize the DRDO before you actually know what it is capable off. We don’t just test something one day and then start producing it the other day like other people lol Sorry if this is offensive to you but you again made the post personal by criticizing the DRDO so a suitable answer had to be given :toast_sign:

-Wing Design came from Italy
-Engine is from US (future one will be build by France)
-Radar and Jammers are Israeli

If it is still all Indian design and tested... May god help DRDO guys.

Next, As i have said earlier why people are comparing Thunders with MKI. I don't think it was made to counter MKI at first place and not by taking one-on-one at least. Both belong to two different classes and have different roles.

Next, On a positive side Thunder will evolve further in future and MKI has adopted all the goodies which IAF wanted. Now PAF is in position to catch up with incorporating things like AESA, Advanced BVR AAM, IRST, HMD etc. I am not saying these thing will make one plane superior than other but it will increase the odds of win in air combat.
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Gambit your experience is truly overwhelming and i respect that. You do make a good point when it comes to radar resolution cells and 2 JF-17 sticking together but here we are comparing one jf-17 to one su-30 MKI, if there are 2 JF-17 then there will be 2 su-30's. Keep in mind that India will be inducting more SU-30MKI that the amount of JF-17 Pakistan will have. It is best to compare them one on one and not use scenarios because then i can also give scenarios where the MKI will have the upper hand no matter what.
Even if India can have more Su-30 in inventory than Pakistan has for the JF-17, it does not translate to the same amount of flight capable aircrafts. Anyone who has any experience in any air force, and I have ten years in the USAF in actual flying squadrons, will know that it is extremely rare for any squadron to have %100 'code one' aircrafts. Most commanders would be thrilled to have around %90 'flight mission capable' (FMC) status and mid-80s is the acceptable median. This is not WW II where massed formations of bombers and fighters are the norm. But even if we use WW II as an example, a good example would be the Battle of Britain where the RAF was continually outnumbered but always managed to isolate enough German aircrafts and shot them down. That is how the air battlefield works. India cannot deploy overwhelming numbers at EVERY sortie. Not even US can and we had to rely on allies in Desert Storm for the air campaign. So even though Pakistan may be outnumbered on the ground, in the air, it will be up to how creative Pakistan's air commanders could be that may put a serious hurting on India's Su-30s. For that subject I will leave it up to the Pakistanis here to debate on how good are their air generals.

Now in regards to Russian tech, i never said and you can have a look at my post before, that Russian's have better tech, I have always said that Russia and USA have followed different paths when it comes to aviation tech. I would not like to quote my experience but I can easily say that you take on Russian tech is not right. Just by saying that Russian tech is not good wont be right. I do except that the Americans are easily the winners but the amount of resources available to them is far greater than the Soviets ever had. As the Russian make a resurgence now and with many high end projects coming to the table now, i am gussing the gap in tech will be filled soon enough. The PAKFA is in its last stages of design and the first prototype will role out early next year as confirmed by many newspapers and Russian news agencies. Even the project 1.27 fifth generation aircraft is within a couple of years of being completed.
The Soviets/Russians have no lack of resources, especially intellectual. It was a Russian mathematician, Petr Umfimtsev, who came up with the predictive behavioral equations of a wave upon impact of a surface. The Soviets ignored his creation but we did not. The Soviets/Russians are behind US solely because of their societal and institutional failings, not for lack of resources. If Russia is to catch up or perhaps even surpasss US, Russia will have to go back to being a dictatorship where military needs takes highest priority for national resources.

Fly MiG and Sukhoi Fighter Jets in Moscow!

When the Russian Air Force has to resort to giving wealthy tourists flights in its front line and export fighters, that does not say much about the state of the Russian military overall and the ability of native Russian technological base to do anything other than to maintain, not innovate, its military.

I really doubt the F-22 claims of 100:1 ratio and all that has been said about it. It is truly a magnificent jet with no comparison but it and most usa fighters have not been up against even comparable aircrafts till now so just plainly saying that they are better than Russian tech is not fair.
I find that criticism amusing at best. Hardly valid. Is there a comparable car to Lamborghini? Yes...There is Ferrari and several others. When the models of these brands are less than %10 of each other in terms of performance, we can say they are statistically comparable, if not outright identical, and it become more reliant upon driver skills and experience, less on the hardwares, that who, not what brand, would win a race. But if there is no Ferrari, then what is Lambo to do? How about pitting its cars against each other? Likewise, since there is nothing comparable to the F-22, what make you think we have not perform any analysis on how we could deal with a potential F-22 rival by using another F-22? Same for the F-15 when it came out. Same for the F-16 when it showed the world its exceptional maneuverability and versatility. We have ALWAYS had comparable aircrafts -- our own -- to test our mettles. But I do have sad news for you...

Constant Peg
For more than a decade, until just before the November 1989 fall of the Berlin Wall, a secret Air Force aggressor unit flew Soviet MiGs in more than 15,000 sorties against US Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps pilots.
We have always had access to Soviet fighters, if not in our hands, then at least through former Soviet allies such as Egypt. If not in numbers, then at least we have a few that we worked hard to keep them flying so we can study their performance.

Viktor Belenko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Belenko was not the only pilot to have defected from the USSR in this way, nor was he the first such to defect from a Soviet-bloc country. In March and May 1953, two Polish pilots flew MiG-15s to Denmark. In 1985 and 1987, USSR-owned helicopters in the Afghanistan theatre of operations defected to Pakistan. Captain Alexander Zuyev flew his MiG-29 to Trabzon, Turkey on May 20, 1989.
The data we gleaned from these few aicrafts and from defectors we incorporated them into adversary air programs like the USAF's Fighter Weapons School and the US Navy's Top Gun. We used US aircrafts to simulate how Soviet fighters would perform and how those performance envelopes influence Soviet tactics. We do not need %100 accuracy, just like the supercars, all we need is %90 for our pilots to come up with Dissimilar Air Combat Tactics (DACT) to train each other. A good analogy is using the machine gun to simulate an adversary with a single shot weapon, then change to be another adversary who is equiped with machine guns. Each simulation will create different tactics and outcomes. When the Soviet Union collapsed, former Soviet satellites needed hard currency to support themselves and as they were in physical possession of many Soviet arms, from rifles to tanks to aircrafts to even missiles, they had every incentive to call US and certainly we were interested. What could Russia do about Soviet arms sold under the table to US? Lodge a protest at the UN? I was not joking about actually worked on Soviet equipments that spanned the entire Cold War era. By the way...India benefited from our adversary air programs starting with the first Cope India exercise. Indians (falsely) gloated on how the Indian Air Force prevailed over US F-15s, never mind that US pilots did exactly what was asked of them -- simulate Pakistani tactics. If US pilots were allowed to unleash what they know...

Currently in the USA aresenal expect for the F-22 I dont see any other fighter jet that is any better than a su-30 or 35 or mig 35, but again the Americans are still far off and it will take sometime to catch up.
The current Suckhy series is playing catch up to the F-15 and F-16 and our aircrafts have established combat records. Everyone expected the F-15 and F-16 to have a gradual evolution into a class similar to the Su-30. With the F-117 we introduced a new element in air warfare, including aerial combat, and that element is 'uncertainty'. With the F-22 and F-35 we decided to bypass the Su-30 series altogether. In other words, we eliminated the Su-30 class from our planning. This is what you failed to understand about 'stealth'. Even if we remove the 'stealth' features from the F-22 and the F-35, both are still at least one generation ahead of the Su-30 class. There is no need for US to match the Su-30 and its brethens.

The cost of stealth is debatable and i will not try to argue that because you can have different takes on it. I can just say that there are other ways to win a war than spending billions of dollars on one jet.
Of course there are other ways. They just take more time and are costlier, in terms of human and materiels.
 
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Hi gambit,

1. Can Su30 (or any aircraft) use its radar to full potential (seek,lock,fire) while its jammer is in jamming mode ?
Yes...However, it is possible to jam oneself if the jamming freqs are either the same as the radar's transmissions or close to it where there is 'parasitic' or 'contaminant' energy into the radar's receiver operation. Remember that in %99.999 of radar systems out there, the antenna does both jobs: transmit and receive. So when the antenna rest in order to 'listen' for any echo that should be in the freq that it transmit, if the jammer just happened to be in full operation in the same freq or in broadband mode, there is self-jamming. There are times when imminent threats, such as from a closing missile, necessitate broadband jamming measures, especially if the ECM system detect frequency agility from the missile. In this situation, there is nothing to do by fly blind and hope for the best.

2. How jammers work, especially in the context that Su30 utilizes most modern Israeli jammers.
If it is implied that Israeli equipments are better, which is a valid point, then the aircraft that is so equiped will be more capable at ECM tactics. Radar detection generally works in three modes: Search, Track and Target. A couple of good examples of how each mode uses what freqs...

Radar Frequency Bands
eEngineer -- Radio Frequency Band Designations

These modes are usually in the centimetric (cm) bands with the high ghz bands reserved for 'Targeting'. The reason why jamming is broadband is because of the many missile guidance techniques. Each has advantages and disadvantages. One of them is 'Track Via Missile' (TVM)...

Track-via-missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
f9eccd8ae228b84f8637f801cf2a3bf9.jpg


Self protection jammers are less flexible to deal with these many missile guidance techniques and this is why dedicated ECM platforms are developed.

03370d5c59ff5e972c49a03265fd8241.jpg


ECM is just as complex and dedicated a discipline as radar detection.
 
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Yes...However, it is possible to jam oneself if the jamming freqs are either the same as the radar's transmissions or close to it where there is 'parasitic' or 'contaminant' energy into the radar's receiver operation. Remember that in %99.999 of radar systems out there, the antenna does both jobs: transmit and receive. So when the antenna rest in order to 'listen' for any echo that should be in the freq that it transmit, if the jammer just happened to be in full operation in the same freq or in broadband mode, there is self-jamming. There are times when imminent threats, such as from a closing missile, necessitate broadband jamming measures, especially if the ECM system detect frequency agility from the missile. In this situation, there is nothing to do by fly blind and hope for the best.

If it is implied that Israeli equipments are better, which is a valid point, then the aircraft that is so equiped will be more capable at ECM tactics. Radar detection generally works in three modes: Search, Track and Target. A couple of good examples of how each mode uses what freqs...

Radar Frequency Bands
eEngineer -- Radio Frequency Band Designations

These modes are usually in the centimetric (cm) bands with the high ghz bands reserved for 'Targeting'. The reason why jamming is broadband is because of the many missile guidance techniques. Each has advantages and disadvantages. One of them is 'Track Via Missile' (TVM)...

Track-via-missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
f9eccd8ae228b84f8637f801cf2a3bf9.jpg


Self protection jammers are less flexible to deal with these many missile guidance techniques and this is why dedicated ECM platforms are developed.

03370d5c59ff5e972c49a03265fd8241.jpg


ECM is just as complex and dedicated a discipline as radar detection.

Great
and i just want to say... "Clear like mud" Thanks :usflag: Yet again sir.
 
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Thanks Gambit for an excellent post...
.................................................. ................................................

Here a marketing video of Northrop Grumman for the APG-81 just an add on to the post.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
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Even if India can have more Su-30 in inventory than Pakistan has for the JF-17, it does not translate to the same amount of flight capable aircrafts. Anyone who has any experience in any air force, and I have ten years in the USAF in actual flying squadrons, will know that it is extremely rare for any squadron to have %100 'code one' aircrafts. Most commanders would be thrilled to have around %90 'flight mission capable' (FMC) status and mid-80s is the acceptable median. This is not WW II where massed formations of bombers and fighters are the norm. But even if we use WW II as an example, a good example would be the Battle of Britain where the RAF was continually outnumbered but always managed to isolate enough German aircrafts and shot them down. That is how the air battlefield works. India cannot deploy overwhelming numbers at EVERY sortie. Not even US can and we had to rely on allies in Desert Storm for the air campaign. So even though Pakistan may be outnumbered on the ground, in the air, it will be up to how creative Pakistan's air commanders could be that may put a serious hurting on India's Su-30s. For that subject I will leave it up to the Pakistanis here to debate on how good are their air generals.

The Soviets/Russians have no lack of resources, especially intellectual. It was a Russian mathematician, Petr Umfimtsev, who came up with the predictive behavioral equations of a wave upon impact of a surface. The Soviets ignored his creation but we did not. The Soviets/Russians are behind US solely because of their societal and institutional failings, not for lack of resources. If Russia is to catch up or perhaps even surpasss US, Russia will have to go back to being a dictatorship where military needs takes highest priority for national resources.

Fly MiG and Sukhoi Fighter Jets in Moscow!

When the Russian Air Force has to resort to giving wealthy tourists flights in its front line and export fighters, that does not say much about the state of the Russian military overall and the ability of native Russian technological base to do anything other than to maintain, not innovate, its military.

I find that criticism amusing at best. Hardly valid. Is there a comparable car to Lamborghini? Yes...There is Ferrari and several others. When the models of these brands are less than %10 of each other in terms of performance, we can say they are statistically comparable, if not outright identical, and it become more reliant upon driver skills and experience, less on the hardwares, that who, not what brand, would win a race. But if there is no Ferrari, then what is Lambo to do? How about pitting its cars against each other? Likewise, since there is nothing comparable to the F-22, what make you think we have not perform any analysis on how we could deal with a potential F-22 rival by using another F-22? Same for the F-15 when it came out. Same for the F-16 when it showed the world its exceptional maneuverability and versatility. We have ALWAYS had comparable aircrafts -- our own -- to test our mettles. But I do have sad news for you...

Constant Peg
We have always had access to Soviet fighters, if not in our hands, then at least through former Soviet allies such as Egypt. If not in numbers, then at least we have a few that we worked hard to keep them flying so we can study their performance.

Viktor Belenko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The data we gleaned from these few aicrafts and from defectors we incorporated them into adversary air programs like the USAF's Fighter Weapons School and the US Navy's Top Gun. We used US aircrafts to simulate how Soviet fighters would perform and how those performance envelopes influence Soviet tactics. We do not need %100 accuracy, just like the supercars, all we need is %90 for our pilots to come up with Dissimilar Air Combat Tactics (DACT) to train each other. A good analogy is using the machine gun to simulate an adversary with a single shot weapon, then change to be another adversary who is equiped with machine guns. Each simulation will create different tactics and outcomes. When the Soviet Union collapsed, former Soviet satellites needed hard currency to support themselves and as they were in physical possession of many Soviet arms, from rifles to tanks to aircrafts to even missiles, they had every incentive to call US and certainly we were interested. What could Russia do about Soviet arms sold under the table to US? Lodge a protest at the UN? I was not joking about actually worked on Soviet equipments that spanned the entire Cold War era. By the way...India benefited from our adversary air programs starting with the first Cope India exercise. Indians (falsely) gloated on how the Indian Air Force prevailed over US F-15s, never mind that US pilots did exactly what was asked of them -- simulate Pakistani tactics. If US pilots were allowed to unleash what they know...

The current Suckhy series is playing catch up to the F-15 and F-16 and our aircrafts have established combat records. Everyone expected the F-15 and F-16 to have a gradual evolution into a class similar to the Su-30. With the F-117 we introduced a new element in air warfare, including aerial combat, and that element is 'uncertainty'. With the F-22 and F-35 we decided to bypass the Su-30 series altogether. In other words, we eliminated the Su-30 class from our planning. This is what you failed to understand about 'stealth'. Even if we remove the 'stealth' features from the F-22 and the F-35, both are still at least one generation ahead of the Su-30 class. There is no need for US to match the Su-30 and its brethens.

Of course there are other ways. They just take more time and are costlier, in terms of human and materiels.



Great post Gambit, but again i dont know how we got to russia vs usa in this thread lol. Again you have given me a lot of technical details and probably overwhelmed many non-tech members but i dont want to do that becuse i am already bored from all the technical stuff i do at work lol so want to get away from that. You comments are truly enlightening and it was fun reading them but i dont get your point again. I agree that with superior tactics any air force can beat the best. I guess you would be knowing that from the Veitnam war where a inferior air force totally " ran over " USA's air force, i dont need to give you the facts for that. I guess if you want to compare Russian and usa fighters you can go over the Vietnam war and see what happened there. What Russian mig-21's did to the usa air force is world known fact and i guess i dont need to stress more on the fact that you cannot just write off the Russian planes in front of usa tech. Again i am not saying that USA tech is not gud but the f-22 and jsf are still very much unproven and by my opinion highly over-rated, They have yet to face a "real enemy" and only then we can see what they are capable off.

I think we are loosing sight of this thread, this is about jf-17 vs the MKI. And on that aspect when you said that superior tactics can win then you are using variable to compare aircrafts. We should only compare the MKI with the jf-17 one on one not using awacs or military planning or w.e. because it makes no sense. I have been saying this again and again dont using scenarios and variables to compare them. Im sure that you have enough knowledge of jets to say clearly that when comparing the jf-17 to the MKI "one on one " without any variables, the MKI wins hands on, just like how if we compare a j-7 to a f22, there is no comparison there also. I hope you agree with me but again i really enjoyed your post.
 
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