Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[desiman]

OMG ... did you even READ my message ... i said JF17 will be on the losing side ...
but gave some FACTS about the latest generation of F16s that will be able to match Su30's radar detection advantage, but still may lack the superior maneuvering of Su30 in WVR.

Read my post clearly ... and try to understand what is written in it ... i hope its not beyond your comprehension. For ease ... i am copy pasting my OPINION in this post once again


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper View Post
Meanwhile ... Su30 will stand like empire state building
Dear, I know Su30 has a great Radar, much better than that of any possible upgrade of F16s, FC20s and JF17s of PAF in near future, but do remember that F-16 has 1.2~2m2 radar cross section as compared to 10~15m2 of Su30s.

If the RCS of Su30 is reduced by 2~3 TIMES, then the excellent radar it possesses will be a great threat to its adversaries ... while in current specifications, an F16E (UAE not Pakistan) will detect Su30 some 50 miles before Su30 manages to get a lock on Viper. While Pakistani Vipers and Indian Su30s will be almost evenly matched against each other (minus BVR missile and ECM/EECM comparison). JF17's might be a bit inferior to F16-B52, so it will be a bit on losing side, but we still don't know the ACTUAL details of JF17's RCS or its radar (even if it is KLJ10).

If Su30 manages to get to WVR, it will really be a formidable enemy with its excellent sustained turn rate, excellent TWR, great thrust vectoring and marvelous post stall maneuvering, but at that time, the situation of fighting over friendly or enemy territory will be the deciding factor. If fighting over friendly skies, Su30 will have chance to kill and survive, on the other hand, over hostile skies, the possibility to KILL and return safely is next to none.

Regards,
Sapper

try to stick to what i have said ... I never said JF17 could kill everything in IAF nor did i imply that f-7 will be able to bring down Su30s.
Please do remember that my comment "on the other hand, over hostile skies, the possibility to KILL and return safely is next to none." is because of excellent Air defence SAM systems employed by both nations and not due to the capabilities of Mig-21 CAPs.

hmmm i am sry if i read you post differently before that would be my bad but i dont agree with your statement that the MKI wont be able to come bck from enemy airspace. SAM systems have a celing that they cam aim under and the MKI can easily fly over these celings and still carry out its misisons easily. Correct me if i am wrong again sorry for the misunderstanding im at work lol

 

[gambit]

Gambit i respect your argument and i agree also but i think you got me wrong, what i meant to say is that the MKI does not try for stealth as its not meant to be a stealth aircraft unlike the f-22 or jsf. The mki just like other Russian fighters till now relies on agility and firepower to provide itself with that sting it needs. Instead of stealth, the MKI uses a great radar, superior maneuverability ability and deadly firepower to get its point across. Not every aircraft plans to be be stealthy. I hope you understood my point now.

What you said was...

...huge rcs to almost intimidate the opponent...

Which is utterly wrong. The Su-30's RCS is the result of its design, not of its designer's intention. No one is going to be intimidated by a large echo on his scope.

 

[gambit]

What silly statement? this whole thread is looking silly to me, we are comparing a 3.5th gen plane with 4.5th gen plane, while their roles are totally different. You can look Su 30 from a distance of 300 or 500 KMs but point is that what else you can do instead of only watching it. You can not dare to go near of Su-30, it would be like suicide.. You need long range BVR missiles that should be used before Su-30 locks on you... I suspect whether JF-17 can reach any near to MKI with in 100 KMs range...

off-topic but I think Mig-21-Bison will do most of the kills in near future due its Smaller RCS and good BVR capabilities.. So you guys need to compare how JF-17 will counter Mig-21 Bison supported by Phalcon...

More silliness...If I can see you BEFORE you can see me, and if I know you have a weapons reach excess of mine, since you cannot see me, what is to prevent me from getting behind you where your radar does not reach? Seeing the enemy and knowing his movements without him knowing yours and you have the advantage.

 

[deep.ocean]

More silliness...If I can see you BEFORE you can see me, and if I know you have a weapons reach excess of mine, since you cannot see me, what is to prevent me from getting behind you where your radar does not reach? Seeing the enemy and knowing his movements without him knowing yours and you have the advantage.

Sorry I am not getting your point.. as my opinion Su30 will not be flying alone.. There would be overall support provided by Phalcon and Sattellites.. so there would no place to play hide and seek..

 

[IceCold]

Sorry for my rant, but i found some comments on f16.net and world affair board..
plz visit these forums...

Just because you found some comments on F-16.net claiming JF-17 a low end 3.5th generation jet, you by default took them right and posted here. Seriously you are embarrassing yourself so stop it.

 

[desiman]

What you said was...Which is utterly wrong. The Su-30's RCS is the result of its design, not of its designer's intention. No one is going to be intimidated by a large echo on his scope.

Again your getting me wrong, i know that its rcs is due to its design but again they never tried to make the su-30 a stealth aircraft in its design state itself. As per Russian requirements that jet was more focused on firepower and agility than stealth which itself is not dependable and cost too much. Having an aircraft that relies heavily on stealth and has to remain in shop for 90% of the time just like the f22 is not what the Russian aimed for. That is being done on the pakfa. And by your point that no one is going to be intimidated by su-30 on their radar lol i hope your joking because if i am in a F-7 or mirage 3 with no bvr or any comparable weapon to a su-30 and i see an MKI on my radar, i would run for my life lol because if you dont get intimidated by a MKI lol i can only call that overconfident
feel free to disagree, again don’t mean to insult you just trying to get my point across

 

[Storm Force]

Is it fair to compare a Su30mki ( Fully evolved flanker with over 1000 in service worldwide)

against a

JF17 new mid range low cost fighter yet to pass operational clearance.

Thunder carries a chinease mechancial radar KLJ 7 the SU30 mki carries a PESA bars radar.A Pesa radar is currently being worked on by china to fit future PLAAF fighters.

Thunder carries a 3rd generation engine the russian RD93 which powered the 1980s built mig29. The mki is powered by a 4th generation TVC engine. Again a new concept in AFL31.

Thunder only carries chinease weapons like the new SD10 BVR yet untested. The Russian fighter has r77 r27 vympel bvr missles which have seen a decade of service.

The mki is packed with israeli jammers and french avionics to give the mki the edge over all other flankers as oppose Thunder which has no western influence as yet.

Finally the IAF already has 6 sqds of mki in service with 100+ planes. Already thanks to PAK FA FGFA 5th generation work the new ibris AESA radar and a ramjet version of R77 bvr missle aong with new smart skins to reduce RCS are to be added to MKI in next few years

Versis

PAF that have 8 prototypes of the thunder stil at intial operational clearance stage.

adding engines radars from a western nation is many years away .

 

[Storm Force]

The link below gives you some of the highly advanced features of the mki

The shear number of missles and massive tracking range of its pesa radar is a mind boggle

deviantART Shop: Sukhoi Su-30 MKI

Also check out IAF engineering plans to increase composites to reduce weight and RCS on future variants using TEJAS tech programme skills

 

[Arsalan]

The link below gives you some of the highly advanced features of the mki

The shear number of missles and massive tracking range of its pesa radar is a mind boggle

deviantART Shop: Sukhoi Su-30 MKI

Also check out IAF engineering plans to increase composites to reduce weight and RCS on future variants using TEJAS tech programme skills

i hope this happens fast as it surely will ruine a fine plane in there arsenal,,,
DRDO

regards!

 

[batmannow]

6 sqdns of MKIs , can finish PAKISTAN?
THIS thrd , Would be better, if we compare "FLYING COFINS" VS "THUNDER"?

 

[desiman]

The link below gives you some of the highly advanced features of the mki

The shear number of missles and massive tracking range of its pesa radar is a mind boggle

deviantART Shop: Sukhoi Su-30 MKI

Also check out IAF engineering plans to increase composites to reduce weight and RCS on future variants using TEJAS tech programme skills

very nice post Storm Force, i hope people who think that the JF-17 can match up to the MKI read this post first lol This thread is a real joke, like comparing a Fiat to a Ferrari lol Sorry its blunt but thats the truth

 

[desiman]

i hope this happens fast as it surely will ruine a fine plane in there arsenal,,,
DRDO

regards!

Lol now that is what you call stupid lol Do you even have any idea what the LCA is capable of lol The LCA program has been totally developed from 0 by India alone not like the JF-17 which was made by China ( which itself is copied from a previously failed designs of which i will give you more info later on ). China made 90% of the aircraft with pakistani's scientist only contributing a small amount or just finance. The LCA has totally been designed and tested by the DRDO and is a classified 4.5 generation aircraft and also uses composite material. It has completed over 530 hours of testing with over 1000 test flights. LOL the JF-17 was manufactured in China totally with minimal Pakistani involvement and when compared to the amount of work done on the LCA, it is a joke lol So please dont ever criticize the DRDO before you actually know what it is capable off. We don’t just test something one day and then start producing it the other day like other people lol Sorry if this is offensive to you but you again made the post personal by criticizing the DRDO so a suitable answer had to be given

 

[notorious_eagle]

Lol now that is what you call stupid lol Do you even have any idea what the LCA is capable of lol The LCA program has been totally developed from 0 by India alone not like the JF-17 which was made by China ( which itself is copied from a previously failed designs of which i will give you more info later on ). China made 90% of the aircraft with pakistani's scientist only contributing a small amount or just finance. The LCA has totally been designed and tested by the DRDO and is a classified 4.5 generation aircraft and also uses composite material. It has completed over 530 hours of testing with over 1000 test flights. LOL the JF-17 was manufactured in China totally with minimal Pakistani involvement and when compared to the amount of work done on the LCA, it is a joke lol So please dont ever criticize the DRDO before you actually know what it is capable off. We don’t just test something one day and then start producing it the other day like other people lol Sorry if this is offensive to you but you again made the post personal by criticizing the DRDO so a suitable answer had to be given

Brother let me give you a good piece of advice; before making a fool out of yourself go over this entire thread and look at the posts of senior members. Than go through the thread LCA vs Thunder, you will get your answer. Try refutting what the senior members have said, making blind statements like these is not doing you any good because i personally dont have the patience to go over topics that have been discussed to death. I hope you get my point

 

[gambit]

Again your getting me wrong, i know that its rcs is due to its design but again they never tried to make the su-30 a stealth aircraft in its design state itself.

The Su-30 is not low observable because the Russians currently CANNOT design and produce such an aircraft. To say the Russians 'never tried' imply they could, which is not true.

As per Russian requirements that jet was more focused on firepower and agility than stealth which itself is not dependable and cost too much.

Really? Care to show the readership which points in the radar low observability, aka 'clutter' region, that YOU deemed to be unreliable?

Having an aircraft that relies heavily on stealth and has to remain in shop for 90% of the time just like the f22 is not what the Russian aimed for. That is being done on the pakfa.

This is peace time, which many people who are desperate in trying to downplay the threats posed by US 'stealth' aircrafts often confused with war time. In peace time operations, many safety and equipment longevity procedures and programs are strictly observed so that when the need arises -- war -- we will have warriors and their equipments trained just short of full combat capabilities.

And by your point that no one is going to be intimidated by su-30 on their radar lol i hope your joking because if i am in a F-7 or mirage 3 with no bvr or any comparable weapon to a su-30 and i see an MKI on my radar, i would run for my life lol because if you dont get intimidated by a MKI lol i can only call that overconfident
feel free to disagree, again don’t mean to insult you just trying to get my point across

If that is from personal experience I feel sorry for whatever air force you are serving or have served. You watched too many B-rated war movies where apparently the radar scope can inform the pilot exactly what lies beyond their visual capabilities. I can tell you from personal experience that nothing comes even halfway close to your fantasy. The most anyone can INFER from a radar display as to what lies beyond is based upon target altitude, speed and aspect angle, not the size of the return. The US Navy is transitioning to an all F-18 carrier air wing. Between an EF-18 and a ground strike configured F-18, there will be almost no discernable RCS differences between them. The point here is that the size of the radar return is almost irrelevant unless it is accompanied with certain target flight characteristics that is consistent with a type of aircraft. So if an Su-30 is flying at the same at the same speed, altitude and heading as the giant C-5, it would be reasonable to assume that there are two transports of different sizes, not a fighter and a transport. Now if both radar returns are flying at Mach 2 when it is known that a certain RCS figure is consistent with a slow transport, then either the enemy has a new weapon in the area or that one's own radar is on the fritz.

Your comment remain silly in that somehow the size of a radar return is indicative of a specific aircraft and that alone would be able to intimidate an opponent into avoiding a fight.

 

[desiman]

Brother let me give you a good piece of advice; before making a fool out of yourself go over this entire thread and look at the posts of senior members. Than go through the thread LCA vs Thunder, you will get your answer. Try refutting what the senior members have said, making blind statements like these is not doing you any good because i personally dont have the patience to go over topics that have been discussed to death. I hope you get my point

Lol ok ill try this once more, just because some senior members say something it does not make it right lol I am not going against them i have read all the threads and not one gives me one good reason why the JF-17 is being rated so high, everyone just gives me wishlist that it will have this, it will have that but nothing concrete. I am again not saying that it is not a bad plane but its not NOTHING compared to the MKI no matter what anyone says lol give me facts not wishlist and dont give scenarios like the JF-17 will have AWACS coverage or it will see the MKI before it does lol. In regards to the LCA, this is not the thread to argue that but ill post some details on the LCA - General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft&#178
Empty weight: 5,500 kg (14,100 lb)
Loaded weight: 8,500 kg (20,700 lb (in fighter configuration))
Max takeoff weight: 12,500 kg[verification needed] (27,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.9 kN (11,250 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN (19,100 lbf)
Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters
External fuel capacity: 5×800 liter tanks or 3×1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.0 (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
Range: 3000 km (1,840 mi (without refueling))
Service ceiling: 15,950+ m (54,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft&#178
Thrust/weight: 1.02
g limits : +8.5 g / 9g
Armament


Guns: 1× mounted 23 mm twin-barrel GSh-23 cannon with 220 rounds of ammunition.
Hardpoints: 8 total: 1× beneath the port-side intake trunk, 6× under-wing, and 1× under-fuselage with a capacity of >4000 kg external fuel and ordnance,
Missiles:

air-to-air missiles:
Astra BVRAAM
Vympel R-77 (NATO reporting name: AA-12 Adder)
Vympel R-73 (NATO reporting name: AA-11 Archer)
Air-to-surface missiles:
Kh-59ME TV guided standoff Missile
Kh-59MK Laser guided standoff Missile
Anti-ship missile
Kh-35
Kh-31
Bombs:

KAB-1500L laser guided bombs
FAB-500T dumb bombs
OFAB-250-270 dumb bombs
OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs
RBK-500 cluster bombs
Avionics
EL/M-2052 AESA radar


Now compare this with the JF-17 and tell me how it even better than the LCA let alone the MKI lol. Base your arguments on facts and real figures. Brother i have not against you but before calling someone else a fool please check your own facts and talk reality and dont loose sight of facts over patriotism. The JF-17 is a great jet and an achievement of the PAF but again do not start comparing it with everything in the sky before you base that on facts and not future wishlist. I hope you get my point now and dont take it personally