SU-30 fighter pilots focusing on beyond visual range combat

[Omega007]

@Omega007 both Basel and deterrent are sensible posters.

Basel isn't, The Deterrent is!!

 

[The Deterrent]

The ones in the East,Middle and South.Anything out side the 700 km line from Pakistani border.And besides,its speed and flight characteristics are very similar to our Lakshya drones,which were designed to mimic terrain hugging LACMs,coupled with the development and induction of combined Radar-Laser finger printing sensors,that can pick up signals from the altimeters inside such missiles,should make it easier to counter threats like Hatf VII and Ra'ad LACMs,compared to that of the likes of CJ 10.

The bulk of IAF is stationed in Western & South Western Air Commands, with additional squadrons and Transport/Special Mission aircrafts in Central Air Command. I'm not suggesting that Babur will decimate everything in India, just that Pakistani military has the capability to reciprocate BrahMos attacks against its bases. For reference, see the following image:

The blue planes represent IAF bases, the white line represents 700km from the border.

 

[Omega007]

The bulk of IAF is stationed in Western & South Western Air Commands, with additional squadrons and Transport/Special Mission aircrafts in Central Air Command. I'm not suggesting that Babur will decimate everything in India, just that Pakistani military has the capability to reciprocate BrahMos attacks against its bases. For reference, see the following image:
View attachment 262260
The blue planes represent IAF bases, the white line represents 700km from the border.

I'm aware of what you just posted,but thanks anyway.What I trying to convey here,that the fact that Pakistan posses the Hatf VII will definitely not be lost on the minds of IAF war planners and they will definitely try to move a significant portion of their assets on away from the western air bases,at least for the first few days,like it did in 71 to prevent a 65 like scenario.
And besides,like I said before,the Lakshya target drone was specifically designed with missiles like Hatf VII and Ra'ad in mind.

 

[Bratva]

I'm aware of what you just posted,but thanks anyway.What I trying to convey here,that the fact that Pakistan posses the Hatf VII will definitely not be lost on the minds of IAF war planners and they will definitely try to move a significant portion of their assets on away from the western air bases,at least for the first few days,like it did in 71 to prevent a 65 like scenario.
And besides,like I said before,the Lakshya target drone was specifically designed with missiles like Hatf VII and Ra'ad in mind.

How will you target a Cruise missile flying at the height of 10 meters in night time ?

 

[Omega007]

How will you target a Cruise missile flying at the height of 10 meters in night time ?

A terrain hugging LACMs have to constantly use their altimeters,and that's the reason we developed and put in place the combined radar-laser finger printing network,an arrangement of passive sensors that monitors,detects and analyzes signals from any and all emitting source,there in lies the answer to your question.Of course it's not full proof,nothing is and that's why I made my statement that IAF planners would definitely try to move their assets to more secured locations,deep inside Indian hinterland,they did the same in 71 as well,................only this time they have move them those farther south and east.I believe PAF would have done the same thing if they could.

 

[Last Samuri]

Pakistani BABUR CRUISE missles are

1. sub sonic and therefore easy to chase and shoott down especially over indian airspace

2. The missle itself is still in development Pakistan has now where near enough missles to hit over 50+ bases

its a mythical threat rather than a real threat

 

[Omega007]

Pakistani BABUR CRUISE missles are

We all know that,thanks for the reminder though.

1. sub sonic and therefore easy to chase and shoott down especially over indian airspace

I would answer this with the cliche,easier said than done!!Chasing them down may be easier (no one actually chases inbound LACMs and engage them from their *** end but lets make an exception for you here) but detecting a terrain hugging missile,which is flying below the horizon of your radar antenna,would be damn hard to detect in time ,if not impossible.That's where aerostats and AWACS come in,so does radar-laser finger printing sensors.But even with all those measures deployed,a few might still get through.

2. The missle itself is still in development Pakistan has now where near enough missles to hit over 50+ bases
We do not know that for sure.In fact,the contrary is more than likely to be true!!

its a mythical threat rather than a real threat

Oh no,do not let yourself delude that much brother,the threat of Babur aka Hatf VII is very much real,a damn serious one at that!!

Pakistani BABUR CRUISE missles are

We all know that,thanks for the reminder though.

1. sub sonic and therefore easy to chase and shoott down especially over indian airspace

I would answer this with the cliche,easier said than done!!Chasing them down may be easier (no one actually chases inbound LACMs and engage them from their *** end but lets make an exception for you here) but detecting a terrain hugging missile,which is flying below the horizon of your radar antenna,would be damn hard to detect in time ,if not impossible.That's where aerostats and AWACS come in,so does radar-laser finger printing sensors.But even with all those measures deployed,a few might still get through.

2. The missle itself is still in development Pakistan has now where near enough missles to hit over 50+ bases
We do not know that for sure.In fact,the contrary is more than likely to be true!!

its a mythical threat rather than a real threat

Oh no,do not let yourself delude that much brother,the threat of Babur aka Hatf VII is very much real,a damn serious one at that!!

 

[The Deterrent]

A terrain hugging LACMs have to constantly use their altimeters,and that's the reason we developed and put in place the combined radar-laser finger printing network,an arrangement of passive sensors that monitors,detects and analyzes signals from any and all emitting source,there in lies the answer to your question.Of course it's not full proof,nothing is and that's why I made my statement that IAF planners would definitely try to move their assets to more secured locations,deep inside Indian hinterland,they did the same in 71 as well,................only this time they have move them those farther south and east.I believe PAF would have done the same thing if they could.

Can you provide more information on this radar-laser finger printing network? What systems is it comprised of?

How do you propose IAF will operate from southern and north-eastern India? Don't you think the distance would be too much for IAF to support IA effectively?

 

[Basel]

Oh,so you meant your Hatf VIIs. But at a reported 700 km,their range is just too limited to engage IAF bases that are situated too dip inside Indian hinterlands!!That's the reason I thought you had hinted at our ballistic missiles.
Anyways,even the air launched Brahmos has a range of 550 km or so,enough to cover the whole Pakistani landmass from within the safety of Indian air space,so use of Shaurya type missiles may not be necessary at all.

700km was initial version range, it is continuously upgraded and as PN is now custodian of 2nd strike capability of Pakistan it means Baber CM can now hit targets beyond 1000kms.

 

[The Great One]

How will you target a Cruise missile flying at the height of 10 meters in night time ?

Look down-shoot down.

 

[Omega007]

Can you provide more information on this radar-laser finger printing network? What systems is it comprised of?

Nothing much is available from the DRDL website,other than it's a network of passive sensors,designed to detect,analyze and identify rf or laser signals.

How do you propose IAF will operate from southern and north-eastern India? Don't you think the distance would be too much for IAF to support IA effectively?

True.That's where long range strike air craft like Su 30s and refuelers come into play.But of course,the CAS air crafts like Mig 27s and Jags have to be deployed in the western air fields,that's for sure.And those will become the target of your LACMs.
That's the reason IAF procured aerostats and spider quick reaction SAM systems.But still,as we all know,no defence is fullproof and some missiles might still get through and hit their marks.
By the way,I didn't say that IAF would have to redeploy all of its assets to the eastern and southern air fields,but only its top tier ones.And this is supposed to be a temporary affairs any way.I mean ones the runways are taken care of by ground launched tac missiles armed with anti air strip munitions,followed by air interdiction sorties by the strike air crafts,the threat of PAF should be reduced enough to enable the IAF to deploy its fighters back to its Western air fields.

By the way,about this map you posted,this one here

I do not think Paksitan Army will deploy its Hatf Vii batteries right on the border for obvious reasons,and although I do not know their predesignated launch locations,(neither I'm naive enough to expect you to disclose them here even if you were to know somehow!!) I believe they will be at least a hundred kilometer away from the border regions so as not to lost the missile vehicles at the hands of Indian rocket artillery or ground attack air crafts.Which means,IAF wouldn't have to move its assets beyond the 700 km boundary on the map.I would guess the bases,which are 400-450 km away would be considered safe enough since that will give the IAF some times to detect the threats and take appropriate measures.Feel free to correct me if you think I've made a mistake.

Hope I did not offend you,that wasn't my intention.I was merely describing a possible scenario,a course of action IAF might take in a future conflict (hope that never happens).It would be great to hear from you,your opinion about the possible counters by PAF. Thanx in advance.

And lastly,is it true that range of the Babur has been increased to 1000 km??

 

[HimalyanKingdom]

Why do we need a BVR of 300 KM range to be mounted on an aircraft, We can very well have a missile launched from the ground right?

What makes Brahmos mounted on Su 30 so special?

launch location will remain undetected. And close to border thus giving more area coverage inside Pakistan.

 

[The Deterrent]

Nothing much is available from the DRDL website,other than it's a network of passive sensors,designed to detect,analyze and identify rf or laser signals.

Is it even operational or just an under-development project? What I found was a project named "Drivya Shakti", basically an ELINT platform. I'm still curious as to how the sensor network will effectively detect missiles by their Laser Altimeters, as they are pointed towards the terrain.

True.That's where long range strike air craft like Su 30s and refuelers come into play.But of course,the CAS air crafts like Mig 27s and Jags have to be deployed in the western air fields,that's for sure.And those will become the target of your LACMs.
That's the reason IAF procured aerostats and spider quick reaction SAM systems.But still,as we all know,no defence is fullproof and some missiles might still get through and hit their marks.
By the way,I didn't say that IAF would have to redeploy all of its assets to the eastern and southern air fields,but only its top tier ones.And this is supposed to be a temporary affairs any way.I mean ones the runways are taken care of by ground launched tac missiles armed with anti air strip munitions,followed by air interdiction sorties by the strike air crafts,the threat of PAF should be reduced enough to enable the IAF to deploy its fighters back to its Western air fields.

I see. By the way, looking at the amount of fortification western IAF bases have, I doubt they'll have to go on the defensive.

I do not think Paksitan Army will deploy its Hatf Vii batteries right on the border for obvious reasons,and although I do not know their predesignated launch locations,(neither I'm naive enough to expect you to disclose them here even if you were to know somehow!!) I believe they will be at least a hundred kilometer away from the border regions so as not to lost the missile vehicles at the hands of Indian rocket artillery or ground attack air crafts.Which means,IAF wouldn't have to move its assets beyond the 700 km boundary on the map.I would guess the bases,which are 400-450 km away would be considered safe enough since that will give the IAF some times to detect the threats and take appropriate measures.Feel free to correct me if you think I've made a mistake.

Obviously, some launch depth is needed, I was following your statement. Still, at 450km inside, only 4 bases make it outside the range.

Hope I did not offend you,that wasn't my intention.I was merely describing a possible scenario,a course of action IAF might take in a future conflict (hope that never happens).It would be great to hear from you,your opinion about the possible counters by PAF. Thanx in advance.

You didn't. IMO, the only "counter" Pakistan would have is pre-emptive strikes against IAF bases by PAF (anti-runway ops) and PA (ballistic/cruise missiles) somewhat along the lines of Operation Focus. Having very little SAM coverage and lesser quality/quantity of aircrafts, PAF would face a very very tough time.

And lastly,is it true that range of the Babur has been increased to 1000 km??

No, not yet.

 

[Omega007]

Is it even operational or just an under-development project? What I found was a project named "Drivya Shakti", basically an ELINT platform. I'm still curious as to how the sensor network will effectively detect missiles by their Laser Altimeters, as they are pointed towards the terrain.

Well,I wasn't aware of any DRDO project by that name you stated above.I suspect, you meant 'Divya Drishti' which is an ELINT system,I wasn't talking about this system though.

I see. By the way, looking at the amount of fortification western IAF bases have, I doubt they'll have to go on the defensive.

Perhaps.

Obviously, some launch depth is needed, I was following your statement. Still, at 450km inside, only 4 bases make it outside the range.

Well,as I said,the bases do not have to be situated beyond that temporary solution,in case the IAF decides to go on with a massed missile attack first.

You didn't.

Really relieved to hear that,cause offending someone like you would be last thing I would ever wanna do.

IMO, the only "counter" Pakistan would have is pre-emptive strikes against IAF bases by PAF (anti-runway ops) and PA (ballistic/cruise missiles) somewhat along the lines of Operation Focus. Having very little SAM coverage and lesser quality/quantity of aircrafts, PAF would face a very very tough time.

Guess both sides will employ this same tactic and it makes sense too.Why risk mid air combat and face losses when you can cripple your opponent from a far??And that's why I laugh at those members who think that both air forces will indulge into large scale aerial duels against each other and all right from the beginning,when in all likelihood,both of them would try to destroy their opponent's assets,especially their air strips from stand off distances most.

No, not yet.

I see,so it's still work in progress I suppose.

 

[The Deterrent]

Well,I wasn't aware of any DRDO project by that name you stated above.I suspect, you meant 'Divya Drishti' which is an ELINT system,I wasn't talking about this system though.

Oh yeah, I must have mixed up the names.

Really relieved to hear that,cause offending someone like you would be last thing I would ever wanna do.

I'm humbled and surprised too.

Guess both sides will employ this same tactic and it makes sense too.Why risk mid air combat and face losses when you can cripple your opponent from a far??And that's why I laugh at those members who think that both air forces will indulge into large scale aerial duels against each other and all right from the beginning,when in all likelihood,both of them would try to destroy their opponent's assets,especially their air strips from stand off distances most.

Precisely.

I see,so it's still work in progress I suppose.

Yes.