Southern Han Chinese and their relationship with the Baiyue

[ChineseTiger1986]

I heard southern Hans prefer the term Tang people to Han people because Tang dynasty assimilated them as Sinitic people.

Tang only applies to the oversea Chinese, because Tang has the same pronunciation of the word "town" from Chinatown.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

I heard southern Hans prefer the term Tang people to Han people because Tang dynasty assimilated them as Sinitic people.

The Southern Chinese such as Min Nan (Taiwanese) and Cantonese self identify as Tang people 唐人 while the "Han" is more common in Mandarin. I do not know the other lect, so I would not comment much.

For Min Nan, I have NEVER came across the term of Han, not just in Singapore, but in Taiwan and China. We pronounce Tang people in a slightly differently way, Deng Lang 唐人 in Min Nan(Taiwanese) .

I went to school, and "learned" that I am Han people (汉人). That is not surprising given that Southern Chinese and Northern Chinese mix with different tribe and are quite non homogeneous people. We use different set of lexicon and pronounce differently and even grammar can be very different.

 

[Viet]

Vietnam is always trying to hide their true ambition.

They first want to claim the entire South China Sea and to unite Southeast Asia.

partly true. historically VN as a nation aims to become as rich and mighty as China. the intention behind this move is primarily is to protect itself before China. for self-defence. so actually you are more or less the main motif for nearly all Vietnamese moves in the region, be territorial southward expansion, be seeking the domination of Laos and Cambodia and beyond.

VN never has intentions to invade China (VN is not Japan). our focus is not the North, but East, South and West. Staying independent is our main goal.

With the available rich natural resources, they will eventually grow stronger and try to claim the entire South China.

I am not surprised that their government is already spreading the propaganda to their ultra-nationalists that the entire South China belongs to Vietnam, and it should be taken back in the future generation.

show me any evidence that VN government does a such thing?
as far as I know even the so-called "ultra-nationalists" never claim to take back Southern of China today. more Chinese propaganda than reality.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

The differences between Northern and Southern Chinese can be very big and can be shown if we select example carefully. However we can always choose sentence formations to show there are similar. Nevertheless, Mandarin, Cantonese and Min Nan/Taiwanese are 3 sinitic lect within the Sinitic language family and are 100% mutually unintelligible.

For that reason, if Taiwan goes independent, she will "enshrine" Taiwanese and tell everyone that "Taiwanese" is a separate race from Chinese.

She is very beautiful

Mandarin
她很美。
ta hen mei

Min Nan/Taiwanese
伊真媠。
yi jin sui

Cantonese
佢好靓
kuoi ho leng

Japanese
彼女は非常に美しいです
kano-jo wa hijo ni utsuku-shi-yi desu.

 

[Viet]

The Yue in Chinese history does not refer to Kinhs. It is just a general term for the Southern people. We know there are still many tribes in Southern China, like Kinhs, Hmong, Zhuang, Thai, Derung, Nu, Kachin, Malay.....etc.

The Chinese history book are not able to identify them one by one. They call them Baiyue, means hundred Yue people.

the term Kinh came much later (centuries) when the Viet regained independence from the Han. Kinh refers to ethnic Viet, to distinguish the Viet from other tribes in Vietnam such as Tay, Tai, Hoa or Hmong.

Yue is an ancient term.

 

[Viet]

The differences between Northern and Southern Chinese can be very big and can be shown if we select example carefully. However we can always choose sentence formations to show there are similar. Nevertheless, Mandarin, Cantonese and Min Nan/Taiwanese are 3 sinitic lect within the Sinitic language family and are 100% mutually unintelligible.

For that reason, if Taiwan goes independent, she will "enshrine" Taiwanese and tell everyone that "Taiwanese" is a separate race from Chinese.

She is very beautiful

Mandarin
她很美。
ta hen mei

Min Nan/Taiwanese
伊真媠。
yi jin sui

Cantonese
佢好靓
kuoi ho leng

Japanese
彼女は非常に美しいです
kano-jo wa hijo ni utsuku-shi-yi desu.

that surprises me a bit of the big difference between Mandarin and Cantonese. I thought they were closer.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

that surprises me a bit of the big difference between Mandarin and Cantonese. I thought they were closer.

There are several Chinese commenters who make examples to show that they are close. Nowadays, I would not want to rebut them in their face. What they have shown can be a mis-information, but as I Southern Chinese, I will say their examples are perfectly right, nevertheless, trying to mislead.

If I go and rebut, these PRC could get so irrational that they make an all out war with me.

The better understanding of Mandarin, Cantonese and Min Nan/Taiwanese is

1. they are 100% mutually unintelligible.
2. The colloquial lexicon and grammar can be very different.
3. The literal lexicon could be much more similar. Just like Vietnamese and Korean, literal part of their languages are much more similar to Mandarin.
4. Nevertheless, there are a lot of overlap between Northern and Southern Chinese lexicon that make it a Chinese language. I believe if Vietnam and Korea are ruled by China as long as us, both the language will be purge of alien components and get very converge to Chinese.

There may be barely such things as literal Cantonese, as Cantonese can pronounce mandarin sentences and lexicon using their phonetics and tones. So that is one factor that make Cantonese very Chinese.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

partly true. historically VN as a nation aims to become as rich and mighty as China. the intention behind this move is primarily is to protect itself before China. for self-defence. so actually you are more or less the main motif for nearly all Vietnamese moves in the region, be territorial southward expansion, be seeking the domination of Laos and Cambodia and beyond.

VN never has intentions to invade China (VN is not Japan). our focus is not the North, but East, South and West. Staying independent is our main goal.

show me any evidence that VN government does a such thing?
as far as I know even the so-called "ultra-nationalists" never claim to take back Southern of China today. more Chinese propaganda than reality.

Even you have successfully united the entire Indo-China, you will still not on the same league with China.

So no wonder you Viet Ultra-Nationalists are now eyeing the South China, since you initial goal is always to displace China.

So i suggest you don't try to act like Japan, to overstretch your capability won't end up good for you. East Asia's master will always be China, all you fellow East Asian nations' role is to assist China, not trying to usurp China.

 

[INDIC]

Tang only applies to the oversea Chinese, because Tang has the same pronunciation of the word "town" from Chinatown.

But most of the overseas Chinese are Cantonese. You sure about Tang originating from Town because they don't sound similar.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

that surprises me a bit of the big difference between Mandarin and Cantonese. I thought they were closer.

The example I cite just now is colloquial Cantonese and Taiwanese/Min Nan. The Cantonese can read out a standard mandarin article and everyone will still understand it perfectly. In fact, that is the way all official documents are crafted today in Hong Kong, as well as all serious newspaper and magazine are written.

The Min Nan is much less developed literally and for me, it is very hard to listen or read an entire mandarin article in Min Nan.

But most of overseas Chinese are Cantonese. You sure about Tang originating from Town because they don't sound similar.

Tang originated from Tang dynasty (唐朝), while Han is from Han Dynasty (汉朝)。

The Min Nan uses Tang exclusively while Cantonese use both Tang and Han, the former more common and colloquial. Other than that, there is a more recent term like tiong kok lang (中国人) used by Min Nan. The Cantonese also use 华人 （wa yan）, but extremely seldom heard in Min Nan/Taiwanese using this term.

The traditional way is Tang people for Min Nan and Cantonese. The literal "Min Nan" language will have Han people but that is never colloquial.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

But most of the overseas Chinese are Cantonese. You sure about Tang originating from Town because they don't sound similar.

He is cherrypicking.

In fact, Cantonese and Mandarin are pretty close to each other, just like Dutch to Low German.

Cantonese Mandarin
你可唔可以话卑我知? 你可不可以告诉我? Can you tell it to me?
你係唔係讲笑？ 你是不是开玩笑？ Are you kidding?
我唔识得你 我不认识你 I don't recognize you.

 

[jkroo]

Great, so many abroad people research history of China. So, whats the result? Can someone draw a conclusion? Is there anyone research Confucius and Yi Jing? I bet that will be better for you.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Great, so many abroad people research history of China. So, whats the result? Can someone draw a conclusion? Is there anyone research Confucius and Yi Jing? I bet that will be better for you.

According to the Viet Ultra-Nationalists, Yi Jing was a Viet invention, while Kongfuzi copied the idea from the Viet.

 

[EastSea]

No,during Goujian's era there was no concept of Huangdi only Wang you're free to prove otherwise.

Why are you avoiding my questions?

You either have proof or you don't.

Either way YuYue has absolutely nothing to do with Vietnam.

nothing to avoid here, it is the debate in English, not in Chinese.

King Goujian of Yue State defeated Fuchai's King of Wu state and united Wu Yue the first kingdom of Bai Yue people in their history. He should been called as Emperor of WuYue. This story is similar to GiaLong Emperor who united Vietnam, in English he is called as Gia Long Emperor of Nguyen Dynasty of Vietnam.

and more, WuYue had something to do with Vietnam in ancient time when King Goujian ordered envoy to Hung King to establish the ally to counter King Fuchai of Wu. Its reported by Đại Việt sử lược (大越史略),

 

[Viet]

Even you have successfully united the entire Indo-China, you will still not on the same league with China.

So no wonder you Viet Ultra-Nationalists are now eyeing the South China, since you initial goal is always to displace China.

So i suggest you don't try to act like Japan, to overstretch your capability won't end up good for you. East Asia's master will always be China, all you fellow East Asian nations' role is to assist China, not trying to usurp China.

that is the root of all the problems, you misunderstand the intention of Vietnam.
we follow Chinese model and adopt it in Vietnam, not to displace, neither replace China. East Asia is not our focus.

the Viet emperors paid tributes to the Han as a sign of submission. When VN stepped out of its own border, we mainly wanted to restore peace and public order in the region.