Some questions related to number of tanks in Pakistan Army

[zraver]

Oh man!

I didn't expect this answer from you. You really don't know much about the Al Khalid do you? The fire control system is of western origin (chinese one is on MBT 2000, not Al Khalid !).

Source please

Trust me the autoloader on Al Khalid 1 is upgraded to provide higher and even better fire power than the previous model.

Source please

Read the history of Al Khalid and MBT 2000 before calling both of them the same tanks. Pakistan took an entirely different route for Al Khalid than Chinese MBT 2000. Different fire control system, different night vision devices, datalink, IBMS and sensors are of Western origin.

Source please, because the link below (2005) shows that the Thales contract was cancelled.

Musharraf's Last Minute Phone Call on SAT Report, Saves Army $37M Loss

. You said no ERA on Al Khalid??

I never said it did not have ERA, I said it lacked heavy ERA which is ahuge difference.

It has ERA from the very start and is atleast in the league of Kontakt 5.

source

HIT has developed a new generation of ERA that was tested in late 2007 against all kinds of ammunition. I don't say it. There is evidence to prove it.

Source

Read Usman Ansari's post given on previous pages. He is among most knowledgeable military journalists in Pakistan at the moment. The gun is Ukrainian origin instead of Chinese and is 48 caliber instead of Russian\ Chinese 52 caliber. That means more accuracy. Please read the history of Al Khalid available on many forums.

The Gun is a Chinese 125mm L48 wich is a quality control improved 2A46M1 gun. The early Soviet 2A46M1 guns were poorly made. China fixed the quality controls and metallurgy, hence the increase in accuracy. However, so did post Soviet Russia. To increase gun power, the Chinese load hot rounds that significantly reduce barrel life. The latest Russian gun is the 2A46m5 L52 is just as accurate and has as much gun power bigger caliber= more velocity= more energy. And does so by using a longer barrel so the exhaust gasses have more time to push the projectile before exiting the end of the barrel.

The problems the Indians had was a software problem, the computer was not set up for Indian produced ammunition ballistics. It was not a gun problem.

A quick lesson on caliber in rifled guns, howitzers and cannon (not small arms)

caliber= length of the barrel from the tip to the top (barrel side) of the breach divided by the diameter of the bore.

125mm L48= 125mm gun with a barrel 6000mm long (6m)
125mm L52= 125mm gun with a barrel 6500mm long (6.5m)

Caliber has nothing to do with accuracy. Accuracy is determined by operator skill, gun quality, ammunition quality, ammunition ballistics, and fire control system.

 

[zraver]

t-90 being rated as slow machine
I am quit surprised actually to hear this from a former yank commander

Remember this is vs the T-80UD

T-90S 46 tons 860hp= 18.1hp ton pwr

T-80UD w/ T-84 improvements 46 tons 1000hp= 27.2 hp ton pwr

per wiki.

 

[Dazzler]

here is the link

Usman Ansari

the rest can be checked on pakdef forum

 

[Dazzler]

Zraver

I have read many of your posts in different forums and appreciate your knowledge and experience but saying that Al Khalid will be inferior to T-90M without any insight on it just does not make sense. Though I personally have no military background neither am i an expert but have a couple contacts in Pakistan Army who gave me some tit bits on Al Khalid and some other Pak Army mbts. (i said tit bits not more than that!). Pakistan has cooperated as much with Ukraine as with China (Specifically on Al Khalid project). Regarding Al Khalid fire control system, you can even check it on wiki. but its FCS is Western for sure because Chinese FCS had some short comings hence was not acceptable to Pak Army.

I understand that generally on internet forums, links and websites are considered as authentic but i tend to take a Pak Army official's word over any web link or internet source any time!

 

[Dazzler]

here is the pakdef forum link to Al Khalid 1 mbt...

Pak Army related discussions: May - July 2009 - Page 9 - PakDef Forums

Also for additional info on Al Khalid and Al Zarrar...


Heavy Metal - Pakistani AFVs

 

[Dazzler]

Indians had plenty of problems with T-90S which were associated with gun accuracy as you mentioned, engine overheating, poor thermal imager performance e.t.c.

 

[zraver]

Zraver

I have read many of your posts in different forums and appreciate your knowledge and experience but saying that Al Khalid will be inferior to T-90M without any insight on it just does not make sense.

In those links you provided, there is not one shred of evidence to back up the claims being made in this thread. This from the source you said would "prove" the opposite. His words, "My opinion is that it’s a pretty good tank with a decent level of mobility and firepower." he also said, "For the Al-Khalid however, modernisation at present means something so drastic will have to wait. A new variant, the Al-Khalid-I, is currently undergoing testing at Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) having been developed by HIT’s ‘Advanced Armoured Research, Development and Integration Complex’. The improvements seem consist of: an improved engine, FCS, improved integrated battle management system (IBMS), improved sensors, side skirts, and track pads.

The AKI when it is ready may narrow the gap, but the current AK is inferior. If it used the same state of the art Thales Catherine TI system or a THALEs FCS, why would HIT be-upgrading it and how would they be upgrading the best unless they got the US Raytheon Block II system used on the M1A2SEPv2?

The T-90M will be delivered to the Indian Army by years end. It is radically better than the T-90S and just as much better than the Al Khalid. Trust my judgment or not, I say what I say with confidence. The T-90M has more armor, a better autloader, a better APS, a better FCS, better thermal* etc

*unless and until someone posts a link that shows that after the THALES contract was canceled a new contract was signed.

TRISHUL: India’s ‘Born Again’ T-90M MBT




Though I personally have no military background neither am i an expert but have a couple contacts in Pakistan Army who gave me some tit bits on Al Khalid and some other Pak Army mbts. (i said tit bits not more than that!). Pakistan has cooperated as much with Ukraine as with China (Specifically on Al Khalid project). Regarding Al Khalid fire control system, you can even check it on wiki. but its FCS is Western for sure because Chinese FCS had some short comings hence was not acceptable to Pak Army.

I understand that generally on internet forums, links and websites are considered as authentic but i tend to take a Pak Army official's word over any web link or internet source any time![/QUOTE]

 

[Dazzler]

You did not go through the other source that i gave i.e pakdef.info. Read it again where it says that all trials were DONE and production commenced for Al Khalid 1. This is the tank which is also offered to Saudis and they were quite impressed with its performance. The link for T-90M that you provided says "IF all goes goes as per plan" and we all know how many Indian military deals go AS PER plan so I am not that worried about it right now. Here are the points mentioned by H. Khan on pakdef forum:

KSA has in principle agreed to buy 150 Al-Khalid tanks worth $600 million. All trails are COMPLETED and some modification have already made to Al-Khalid. (current Al Khalid)

1- Trials at 55 C were successful with very fine dust not making any impediment on the engine and performance of the tank. (not many Indian Tanks have achieved that)

2- Turret power control now is all electrically controlled backed by manual control (KSA)

3- A new European Renk LSG 3000 transmission has been incorporated (KSA) (SESM 500 for Pak)

4- There is some type of ‘special’ armor has been installed. During trails this ‘special’ armor (on the hull and turret) tested through live firing which defeated all types of 120 & 125 mm tank projectiles. (PA & KSA) (this is the armor is was talking about)

5- Modifications have been completed which resulted in increasing the 125 mm rounds from 39 to 49

6- Ammo storage for 12.7 & 7.62 mm has increased from 1,000 to 1,500 and 4,000 to 7,100 rounds respectively, thus, making Al-Khalid the most heavily weaponized tank in the world.

7- The power pack (engine, transmission & cooling system) can be removed in 30 minutes and reinstalled in 35 minutes.

8- KSA Al-Khalid will be equipped with (PA also), IBMS (PA also), and active threat-protection system.

Now after reading all this, i don't have to worry about T-90M. By the way, even current Al Khalid is equipped A/C, APU, DDP but not Active Protection System. Al Khalid 1 is equipped with Ukrainian Vatra Optronic Countermeasure system (very similar to Shtora). Regarding Catherine FC Thermal Imaging device, the information is available even on wiki, in 2007 Kanwa posted an article on Pakistan MBT Modernization Plan in which they mentioned Catherine FC for both Al Khalid and T-85 IIAP, Italian Thetis night sight for Al Zarrar. I will post the link soon. Al Khalid FCS was a Western one right from the word go. I mentioned the reason and you can check it even on this as well as other forums.

 

[Dazzler]

Here is another link to a Kanwa article that was published in 2007. It mentions Catherine FC Thermal imaging sights for Al Khalid.

http://www.****************/forums/army-security-forces/new-version-al-khalid-mbt-soon-6397-2/

 

[Dazzler]

The link is not working so here it is.

A source from the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) told KDR that the production of AL-Khalid MBT has been going on very smoothly. Apart from Pakistan, there are a number of other countries also interested in this MBT, including Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Iraq and Indonesia. Other sources from the Pakistani Army disclosed to KDR that the Pakistani Army ordered an initial batch of 300 Al-Khalid MBTs, and a total of 200 have already been produced. (is this number true?).

There is a plan to further enlarge the production line to the scale of manufacturing 100 Al-Khalid every year. The Saudi Arabian delegations paid field visit twice to HIT and tested Al-Khalid. Saudi Arabia plans to have an Al-Khalid delivered in 2007 for further testing. A source from the Pakistani Army confirmed that China has participated in the promotion of Al-Khalid MBT to Saudi Arabia.

A source from French THALES told KDR that Pakistan has signed the contract of importing 900 sets of Catherine-FC thermal imaging systems to be fitted on the Al-Khalid MBTs of the Pakistani Army. Delivery of these thermal imaging systems is expected to start in March 2007. As an integrated plan, the same type of thermal imaging systems will also be used to upgrade the T85IIAP MBTs currently in service. A source from HIT told KDR that the reason they did not choose the Chinese-made thermal imaging systems was that they did not meet the demands of the Pakistani Army. Kanwa has learned that even the latest upgraded 99G MBTs use mechanical scanning thermal imaging system. Catherine-FC thermal imaging system works at 8-12μm band, weight smaller than 5.5kg, image resolution 754X576, wide field of view (WFOV) 9ºX6.7º, and narrow field of view (NFOV) 3ºX2.2º. Catherine-FC has a detection range of 10,000m for tanks, recognition range 4,500m, and identification range 2,300m.

In order to promote Al-Khalid MBTs to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan has also used Matis thermal imaging system produced by French SAGEM for testing purpose, mainly because the armored forces of the Saudi Arabian Army are currently using Sagem’s thermal imaging systems. The third generation Matis thermal imaging system works at 3-5μm band, weight smaller than 4.5kg, WFOV 12ºX8º, NFOV 2.5ºX1.7º, detection range for tanks 11,000m, recognition range 5,300m. The identification range of the system is not yet revealed.

The Chinese tank experts told KDR that Pakistan has made rapid progress in tank design. The Chinese side is also very impressed by the new Integrated Battlefield Management System (IBMS) fitted on Al-Khalid. This IBMS is designed and produced by the Pakistani Integrated Defense Systems, and the system is already installed on some Al-Khalid command MBTs in effective service. With this IBMS, the battlefield situations between the two sides of confrontation can be transmitted through the video camera and unmanned aerial vehicle. This transmission system is capable of processing data and transmitting command orders as well as displaying different 3D topographical images and maps. The designer of the system stressed that they have also planned to connect the IBMS with satellite in the future.

An upgrading plan for Al-Khalid MBT is in the making. The first step will be replacing the engine system. Experts from HIT say that they are right now considering using the German-made 1,500hp engines to replace the Ukraine-made 6TD2 engines. (As good as the German engines may be, one has to consider the wisdom of using a more expensive, more sanction prone engine for our front line tank, but then we're considering U-214 as well!) For this purpose, Al-Khalid’s engine compartment has reserved a 1m space for the installation of greater power engine. Meanwhile, Pakistan has decided to outfit active protection system on Al-Khalid, similar to the Russian Shtora system. Pakistan has obtained at least one such system respectively from Ukraine and China for testing purpose. The Ukrainian version Shtora has already been tested on one Al-Khalid MBT. This system is composed of the laser detection and IR detection subsystems. In addition, Pakistan has also designed independently a laser detection system for Al-Halid for exercises and training. This system can perform laser beam detection and is composed of 8 units of laser detectors which are fitted on the two sides of Al-Khalid turret and on the front as well, providing a 180 deg forward-coverage.

Pakistan does not have a plan to fit gun launched ATMs on Al-Khalid MBT at the moment. The source also said that the plan of installing new engines and gun launched ATMs will be determined by the demands of respective clients, and Pakistan has the capability to undertake such upgrading for the clients.

Other sources from the Pakistani Army say that the plan of installing gun launched ATMs on the tanks of the Pakistani Army will be first tested on T80UD. Nonetheless, the Pakistani Army has much greater expectation for Al-Khalid MBTs than for T80UD. General Ehsan-ul-Haq, Chairman of Joint Staff of the Pakistani Military, says that Al-Khalid’s performance is much better than T80UD.

As it was mentioned above, the upgrading plan of T85IIAP is related to the installation of Catherine-FC thermal imaging system produced by Thales Company on Al-Halid MBTs. A source from the Pakistani Army stresses that in addition to outfitting thermal imaging system on T85IIAP, there are no other major upgrading plans. Pakistan once considered using the T serial tank upgraded thermal imaging system produced by the British Maconi Company. Since 2001, Pakistan has conducted winter and summer tests of the above two systems and Maconi eventually lost to Thales.

The upgrading of Al-Zarrar MBT has been going on very smoothly. A source from the Pakistani Army says that up to the present, they have finished upgrading 300 of them. The Army plans to upgrade a total of 611 T59 tanks so that they can reach the standard of Al-Zarrar. The direction of future upgrading of these T59 tanks will be the same as that for T85IIAP and Al-Khalid MBTs, i.e. to further upgrade the fire control system. For the A1-Zarrar upgrading project, Pakistan has chosen the THETIS thermal imaging system produced by Italian Galileo Avionica Company. A source from Galileo Avionica told KDR that THETIS thermal imaging system originated from ARES gunner sight system, but THETIS did not include the laser range finder. The fire control system of Al-Zarrar is still made by China in order to lower cost, and Pakistan has only selected the Italian thermal imaging system. As a 2nd generation thermal imaging system, THETIS works at 8-12μm band and uses digital signal processing system. Other technical details of this system have not been revealed. The source told KDR that Galileo Avionica has delivered to Pakistan 10 sets of THETIS thermal imaging systems for testing purpose, a total of 200 such systems will be delivered, indicating that not all Al-Zarrar tanks will be fitted with THETIS. The full upgrading plan will start in 2007. (so the first batch of upgraded Al-Zarrar's will have different thermal imaging systems than the later batch?)

As for the engine system, Al-Zarrar is powered by the 730hp diesel engines. This 730hp engine can give a power to weight ratio of 18.3hp/t and a maximum speed of 55km.

In summary, the basic technologies of the Pakistani tank industry indeed came from China, but in the course of constant upgrading, Pakistan is now enjoying much greater independence. More western fire control systems have been fitted on the Pakistani tanks

 

[zraver]

You did not go through the other source that i gave i.e pakdef.info. Read it again where it says that all trials were DONE and production commenced for Al Khalid 1.

No it did not

1- Trials at 55 C were successful with very fine dust not making any impediment on the engine and performance of the tank. (not many Indian Tanks have achieved that)

2- Turret power control now is all electrically controlled backed by manual control (KSA)

Source that PA will use the same

3- A new European Renk LSG 3000 transmission has been incorporated (KSA) (SESM 500 for Pak)

Source that the PA will use it as well.

4- There is some type of ‘special’ armor has been installed. During trails this ‘special’ armor (on the hull and turret) tested through live firing which defeated all types of 120 & 125 mm tank projectiles. (PA & KSA) (this is the armor is was talking about)

KSA and PA do not have the 3BM42M or 3BM46. However, if the PA 125mm rounds can't break the Al Khalid's armor, how will they fair against the heavier armor of the T-90M with both Kacktus HERA and Indian Kachan ceramic?

5- Modifications have been completed which resulted in increasing the 125 mm rounds from 39 to 49

where? Seriously, where is the ammo stored. The AK does not have excess room, let enough for 10 more rounds of main gun ammo plus thousands of rounds of MG ammo.

6- Ammo storage for 12.7 & 7.62 mm has increased from 1,000 to 1,500 and 4,000 to 7,100 rounds respectively, thus, making Al-Khalid the most heavily weaponized tank in the world.

No its not. M1A2SEPv2TUSK 2x 12.7mm w/ 1000 rounds 2x 7.62mm w/ 12,400 rounds 1x 120mm w/ 40 rounds

M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com

7- The power pack (engine, transmission & cooling system) can be removed in 30 minutes and reinstalled in 35 minutes.

8- KSA Al-Khalid will be equipped with (PA also), IBMS (PA also), and active threat-protection system.

2007 Kanwa posted an article on Pakistan MBT Modernization Plan in which they mentioned Catherine FC for both Al Khalid and T-85 IIAP, Italian Thetis night sight for Al Zarrar. I will post the link soon. Al Khalid FCS was a Western one right from the word go. I mentioned the reason and you can check it even on this as well as other forums.

Wiki can make all the claims it wants when it comes to fire control. I want a link to something I can fact check. I posted a link where the THALES contract was canceled.

 

[Dazzler]

By the way the above article i posted is NOT from wiki but a hard copy of the ACTUAL article that i saved for my record. On one hand you easily believe Prasun sen Gupta blog that even many Indians don't believe!! On the other hand you are denying everything, link, web posts that i gave. All i can say is WOW.

In one of your posts, you FINALLY admitted that "Al Khalid 1 MAY narrow the Gap" which reflects that you simply come here in a state that anything Pakistani can not be superior than Indian. You made me say that because the sources that you are denying, ask any member here and he will say they are among most reliable sources Pakistani Military forums and they are WAY more reliable than Mr. Prasun Gupta.

 

[zraver]

By the way the above article i posted is NOT from wiki but a hard copy of the ACTUAL article that i saved for my record. On one hand you easily believe Prasun sen Gupta blog that even many Indians don't believe!! On the other hand you are denying everything, link, web posts that i gave. All i can say is WOW.

In one of your posts, you FINALLY admitted that "Al Khalid 1 MAY narrow the Gap" which reflects that you simply come here in a state that anything Pakistani can not be superior than Indian. You made me say that because the sources that you are denying, ask any member here and he will say they are among most reliable sources Pakistani Military forums and they are WAY more reliable than Mr. Prasun Gupta.

I was wonderign how long until you called me an Indian fanboy.

You have not provided a single shred of evidence, that the Al Khalid being used or planning on being used by the PA has the upgrades KSA wanted. As for India- did India ink a deal for an improved T-90M? The answer to that question is yes. Did India adopt the LEDS actives protection system? Again, a yes an an answer. Does the T-90 have a strengthened auto-loader allowing long rod peentrator type rounds? These are all yes answers. If you think Gupta is wrong, I am assuming this is based on past claims that have not been born out. Can you source those failings for me? otherwise i am going to rely on the generally solid reputation of the Asian Defense Journal and Prasun K. Sengupta's otherwise solid reputation. You want me to disregard him and his publication, then give me some proof. he is widely published and not an Indian. That is about as unbiased as you can get on the surface. if you think he favors India over Pakistan or is otherwise faulty- provide proof.

Does the Al Khlaid have heavy ERA? NO.

Does the Al Khalid use a western TI? No, the contract was canceled (I provided the link for that)

Does the Al Khalid use a western FCS? Unknown, no link provided

Does the Al Khalid use a Chinese copy of the T-72 autoloader? Yes

Can that auto-loader load rounds past 560-600mm in length? No it cannot. BTW- picks of Chinese troops loading a type 98 which uses the same auto-loader revealed a projectile length of 560mm

Does the current Al Khalid have an APS? No, at best it has an electro-optical jamming system which is not a complete APS with hard kill ability.

Is the Al Khalid's gun an improved version of the 2A46m1 L48? yes

Is that gun superior to the improved 2A46m5 L52? No, it matches gun power at best and does so via higher pressures and reduced barrel life.

Will Pakistan be outnumbered? Yes

Would you fight outnumbered or even odds with an at best Even Steven tank, or would you want better? I'd want better.

Who, India or Pakistan has the budget to buy better equipment? India.

Despite occasional cluster f&cks does India generally end up with 1st rate equipment? Yes

I look at the available facts and grade them via my experience.

 

[Dazzler]

I gave you the complete Kanwa Defence Review article printed in 2007. Search it on Google and you will find it. You gave me an article printed in 2005 which was a news piece! I will believe the latter. I never called you Indian FAN BOY. I just said that this is the general foreign attitude towards Pakistani military developments (not every time though). Again please check Gupta's reputation before defending him. Pakistan has always been more secretive regarding its weapon systems for obvious reasons (Israel is a similar case).
The Al Khalid FCS is of Western origin. Based on the third prototype configuration (sinodefence.com) coupled with Ukrainian engine and SESM 500 transmission as fitted on British Challenger. Al Khalid 1 does have APS and you can find pics in this forum with little effort. I will stick to what i am told by a very reliable source that the gun is based on KBA3 tech acquired with T-80 ud, manufactured by China. Now I really find it hard to believe that Pakistani Army officials only tested it against equipment that they had and got satisfied with it. Is this how trials occur anywhere in the world? They have not one but TWO very reliable sources that can provide it with new Russian rounds (China and Ukraine!). Yes, Pakistan will be out numbered and this is the reason why we developed a new variant despite little finance and less resources. It has Catherine FC, improved autoloader, new IBMS coupled with datalink, GPS navigation, APS and all the features that i mentioned in previous posts. You have your opinion and I have mine (backed by VERY reliable sources). If you have any RELIABLE source to deny the above please put it forward.

 

[fatman17]

Other sources from the Pakistani Army disclosed to KDR that the Pakistani Army ordered an initial batch of 300 Al-Khalid MBTs, and a total of 200 have already been produced. (is this number true?).

more like 270 since the article so true!