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Some questions related to number of tanks in Pakistan Army

KSA has in principle agreed to buy 150 Al-Khalid tanks worth $600 million. All trails are COMPLETED and some modification have already made to Al-Khalid. (current Al Khalid)

this has not materialised for reasons unknown even though a US$ 1 billion MoU was signed!
 
Nabil, Problem is that Zraver is as told by him, he is an armored corps officer of the US army. So his views would be western related, meaning he will compare western tanks with russian or chinese tanks. Both have different tank doctrines. PA focus is how to counter Indian armor and weapon systems, so whatever they get PA tries to match or get a superior weapon system, quality wise not quantity wise.

Problem with PA is that they keep a lot of secrets regarding their weapons for surprise purposes. As for Indian latest T-90 acquisition, PA knows about it and they would have thought about countering it. Latest Chinese tank T-99G & some other unidentified variant has a lot of similarity with AL Khalid turret, also with an active protection system of chinese origin, and its turret is also big giving speculation to be having a bustle type auto loader as such large turrets were not seen before on chinese tanks. An improved 1500 HP engine and laser dazzlers and stuff.

In my opinion if chinese have APS system and other improved stuff, so will PA get them soon after may be some modifications as per the requirement of PA.

We can't be sure, just guess what AK II would be till it comes out in the public. The chinese newest type was also recently shown and videos have come out.

But its for sure PA will be going for the latest developments happening in the tank design, and AK II will be able to counter the whatever variant of T-90 series india procures.

Just have a look at the Chinese Newest version of MBT having APS and AK kind Hunter-Killer capability, which wasn't there in the Type-98 & earlier variants of Type-99.
 
This is the latest version of Type-99, and u can see the difference.
 
*unless and until someone posts a link that shows that after the THALES contract was canceled a new contract was signed.

TRISHUL: India’s ‘Born Again’ T-90M MBT

The report you are mentioning is not written by Prasun k sengupta. Here is the original link.
T-90M MBT Export Deliveries Begin

and here is the official brochure of Al-Khalid again from prasun.
5b4599bddc92e97e522133d4b5207cfd.jpg
 
by 2020 india will be able to field
it's 2000 t-72 ajeyas on it's eastern front alongwith pakistan
so therefore i wonder in this ten years time the figure 350 al-zarars can easily go to 1000

on the other other india will be able to furthure enhance it's t-90(MBT) strength
the figure of current 600 of these tanks by 2020 will be some where around 1500
so in this period to come we have enough time to increase our figure 320 al-khalid to 600(including al-khalidI&II+320 T-80UD)

so according to my estimates by 2020 the battlefield
statistics will be this

2000 t-72 ajeyas v/s 1000 al-zarars
1500 t-90bhishmas v/s 920(600 akI,II & 320 t-80ud)
 
One correction. I mentioned SESM 500 Transmission fitted on Challenger is was a mistake on my part. Instead, it is actually fitted on French Leclerc. It is rather unfortunate that the deal with KSA has not been signed yet (we know the reason why!) but its only a matter of time and it will soon be signed (Insha ALLAH) as the Saudis have all praises for Al Khalid's performance (specially in desert regions!).

Taimikhan

I understand that zraver has a "Western eye on Eastern issues" so its not his fault after all. Pakistan intentionally didn't make a heavy mbt for obvious reasons (Remember we tested Abrams as early as in mid 80's and they didn't perform well at all in the Thar region). We have a different terrain than the Americans and even Chinese. People raise the issue that Chinese did not accept Type-90 into service because it was not good enough. WRONG! Its a simple case of "different countries, different requirements" also everyone knows the fate of MIGHTY ARJUN, standing at 55+ tons and had all sorts of troubles in Rajisthan desert region.

Fatman17

The article is from 2007 and by that time approximately 200 Al Khailids were delivered. Today the number stands over 300 as far as i know (It could be well over).
 
@ Ironman
The link (for T-90M) you provided is not working. The Brochure you posted seems pretty impressive doesn't it? Compare the specs of both tanks with a neutral view and you will see there is not much difference (Al Khalid 1 vs. T-90M). Last year I went to Ideas expo and had the pleasure to talk to some HIT officials (I got my Brochure from there) regarding Al Khaild and Al Zarrar.
 
It was evident that Indians will exercise a better option and they have. T-90S was primarily an export oriented version of the Russian T-90A. The improvement of T-90A resulted in T-90M which was initially not for export but considering traditional Indo-Russian military relations, the deal went through. India as of now doesn't have much choice because Arjun fell short of requirements in almost all departments (engine, optics, accuracy to name a few) hence T-90M was the logical choice.
 
I gave you the complete Kanwa Defence Review article printed in 2007. Search it on Google and you will find it. You gave me an article printed in 2005 which was a news piece! I will believe the latter.

Where is the report of sale? The last report we have that has that contract being canceled. If it was reinstated, where is the link and for what generation of FLIR?



) coupled with Ukrainian engine and SESM 500 transmission as fitted on British Challenger.[/quote]

source


Al Khalid 1 does have APS and you can find pics in this forum with little effort.

That system lacks a hard kill ability. Do you not understand the difference?


I will stick to what i am told by a very reliable source that the gun is based on KBA3 tech acquired with T-80 ud, manufactured by China.

The gun is an improved version of the 2A46m1 L48 gun with higher pressures to boost performance. It is not superior to the 2A46m5 gun L52


Now I really find it hard to believe that Pakistani Army officials only tested it against equipment that they had and got satisfied with it. Is this how trials occur anywhere in the world? They have not one but TWO very reliable sources that can provide it with new Russian rounds (China and Ukraine!).

Source that Russia sold China or Ukraine any of the post Soviet ammunition developments. The Chinese round recorded being loaded on to Chinese MBT's was 560mm. No Chinese round has been see that is longer.

Yes, Pakistan will be out numbered and this is the reason why we developed a new variant despite little finance and less resources. It has Catherine FC, improved autoloader, new IBMS coupled with datalink, GPS navigation, APS and all the features that i mentioned in previous posts.

Source that the autoloader can handle long rod penetrators.


You have your opinion and I have mine (backed by VERY reliable sources). If you have any RELIABLE source to deny the above please put it forward.

I've put forward sources, you deny them. The auto-loader. As for your sources, I see a lot of claim with very little fact. I can source the APS used by the T-90, I can source the fire control etc. I don't have to rely on forum rumors but can source it. You have not provided any sourcing. A single defense brief with no date of publication is not a source. Improvements used on the T-90 Vladimir/T-90M did not exist until just a few years ago. China does not have it. India just got it, and is as far as I know the first and only export customer. Ukraine did not develop it, it spent it energies on a different type of auto-loader.

Nor do I buy secrecy crap, I have eyes and can see what I see. I do not see heavy ERA, I do not see an APS with a hard kill ability, I do not see a gun bigger than L48 etc.

taimikhan
Re: some questions related to number of tanks in pak army
Nabil, Problem is that Zraver is as told by him, he is an armored corps officer of the US army. So his views would be western related, meaning he will compare western tanks with russian or chinese tanks. Both have different tank doctrines. PA focus is how to counter Indian armor and weapon systems, so whatever they get PA tries to match or get a superior weapon system, quality wise not quantity wise.

I never claimed to be an officer.

A tank is judged on how well it blends the 3 following- shock, mobility, and firepower.

Gunpower alone is worthless if the tank is easily killed so firepower is more of an ability to give and take punishment on the battlefield.

Mobility is more than just top speed, but also things like trench crossing, crew comfort, range and soft ground crossing.

Shock, well when everything comes together and the tank starts killing its favorite target (cooks, fuel trucks, supply clerks etc) it delivers shock by being where the enemy really doesn't want it.
 
You are free to believe what you want to believe but plz don't expect others to follow your path. According to you the sources I provided are NOT sources, fine by me but plz refrain from calling them crappy or such things about which you have no clue. The thing is that my provided sources are reliable and can be verified by any member on this forum.

I never said that autoloader is BRAND NEW. All i said that it is IMPROVED and now can fire nine instead of eight rounds per minute.

Quote "The gun is an improved version of the 2A46m1 L48 gun with higher pressures to boost performance. It is not superior to the 2A46m5 gun L52"

Source?

My point of explaining all this was by no means to convince you or anyone since it is of no use but just to highlight the fact that Pakistan is not sleeping and is aware of Threats and Challenges it is surrounded by. If you can provide any source to deny my sources please do so.
 
You are free to believe what you want to believe but plz don't expect others to follow your path. According to you the sources I provided are NOT sources, fine by me but plz refrain from calling them crappy or such things about which you have no clue. The thing is that my provided sources are reliable and can be verified by any member on this forum.

I didn't call them crappy, I said they were not sourced. If any member can verify, how about they go take a pic of the TI system.

Here is a good write up of the AK/Type 90IIM/MBT 2000 updated 5/5/09. No mention of a THALES system or a Ukrainian gun.

HIT Al Khalid / Type 90-II / MBT 2000 Main Battle Tank - History, Specifications and Picture - Military Tanks, Vehicles, and Artillery

I never said that autoloader is BRAND NEW. All i said that it is IMPROVED and now can fire nine instead of eight rounds per minute.

If the rounds can't penetrate, then rate of fire does not matter.


1. Where did Ukraine and China both get their 125mm gun technology? The Soviet Union/Russia.

2. The KBA3 is visually almost identical to the 2A46m1 it even has the same caliber and breech dimensions.

3. the improvements listed auto-frettaged and chrome plated are all quality improvement moves, not revolutionary new technologies.

In case you didn't know, frettage is to rapidly cool and shrink an exterior piece over an internal piece. The term comes from barrel making. These improvements (they are Chinese not Ukrainian) were done to increase the internal pressures the guns could handle and thus increase the amount of energy the guns could impart.



My point of explaining all this was by no means to convince you or anyone since it is of no use but just to highlight the fact that Pakistan is not sleeping and is aware of Threats and Challenges it is surrounded by. If you can provide any source to deny my sources please do so.

I know you think that some how Pakistan with its smaller budget and less reliable access to high tech toys is going to equalize Indian numbers and technology and do it for less money. Feel free to keep on believing that. I doubt your countries generals do. If they are smart they are planning to win based on Pakistan's tanks being outnumbered and clearly inferior. If the tanks turn out to be even or have a slight edge- good for Pakistan. But if the tanks are over rated, I think you are over rating the AK, then Pakistan has a problem if they expected them to do things they can't do.
 
i provided a wrong link from my pc instead of an internet image link of catherine fc thermal imager fitted on al khalid
 
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I will provide the Alkhalid interior pics showing Cathering FC, IBMS and other goodies once i figure out how to upload images here !
 
I hope it works now!

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/zeeshan/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/al-khalid7.JPG

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/zeeshan/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/al-khalid44.JPG

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/zeeshan/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/al-khalid33.jpg
 
I hope it works now!

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/zeeshan/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/al-khalid7.JPG

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/zeeshan/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/al-khalid44.JPG

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/zeeshan/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/al-khalid33.jpg

I can't access your c drive....

go to tinypic and load them up and drop the provided URL here.
 
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