Situation is on the brink in Depsang-DBO axis, can Pakistan Army tilt the balance for a common goal

[Signalian]

Janab! facts speak louder than words. The spike in Indian sponsored terrorism and the loss of our soldiers in 2020 alone should tell you a thing or two but only if you are willing to listen. There is a clear difference between his approach and Gen Raheel.
I am surprised how anything against one man is considered as some sort of blaspheme against an entire institution. Let me repeat Bajwa is another Kyani and we have seen how things went during the time of Kyani from soldiers getting killed by US and NATO bombing to that of terrorism. In 2020 alone how many soldiers have we lost from Iran Pakistan border to Pak Afghanistan border? Forget with India. Where is Bajwa, any reaction to anything at all? Celebrating EID for photo ops isnt what you refer to as leading from the front. So yeah Bajwa is sitting with a "NO" sign on his forehead as is PM Khan. Just because i support Khan does not mean i dont see his short coming and will stay silent. Pakistan comes first everything else is replaceable including Bajwa and Khan.

I cant do much about wrong perception based on biased thinking. What RS had started was carried on by Bajwa. RS started with Ops in KPK and it wasn't completed in his tenure. This was carried on by Bajwa in KPK and the last phase of Khyber-4 was completed in Bajwa's first year as COAS. Along with that Khyber-3 and Khyber-4, another Ops had started, Ops RUF, since TTP's back was broken and some of its ranks started to form smaller groups. Bajwa was already facing the hornet's nest stirred by RS. The sleeper cells spread throughout the country, the anti-state elements in Baluchistan and splitting of TTP as JUA and others had shown up post 2017. This history lesson is important to tell you that Bajwa faced and is facing much more than what RS faced and why ? Just like you and many others have a perception of Bajwa that he is " doing nothing" and blah blah, the same mentality had existed in anti-state elements, that Bajwa cannot do much and will spend his tenure quietly and walk away. The opposite happened in reality, he stepped up the Ops not just inside Pakistan to tackle every threat that showed up but you can also relate some action inside Afghanistan which was almost non-existent in RS tenure. So while you look at 2020 as loss of soldiers, the flip side is that 2020 witnessed action outside Pakistan also. The loss of own troops is unfortunate, it happened in RS tenure too and even before that and although it pains, as long as the war continues, there will be loss of life. If the war is stopped today, the loss of uniformed personnel will also stop but then civilians like yourself will pay the price with their life. There has been constant escalation on LOC also during Bajwa's tenure - another testimony that Bajwa has been successful in frustrating anti-state elements funded with India to an extent that India had no other choice to mount the pressure but escalate situation on LOC as well as in Baluchistan and Sindh. Bajwa along with IK and PAF has been instrumental in handling the Feb 2019 crisis through meetings, planning and him sending his message across from DG ISPR. The tit for tat response that comes now whenever militants show up was not previously seen. The tenure of a failed person is never extended which means Bajwa has been successful and thus his extension is justified, even though you and others might not agree. His planning and capability has certainly stirred up activity on all sides of Pakistan as well as inside Pakistan - means he is doing something correct. In this era of 5th gen warfare going towards 6th gen warfare, there will be Ops highlighted in media but most of the intel Ops will go in databases and remain there. India has shown frustration in LOC, Afghanistan has shown frustration on Pakistan's border check posts, elements inside Iran are stirring up against Pakistan and the insurgent nests inside Pakistan are cut down whenever they raise their necks. I know you want to vent out since you get this opportunity through PDF, by all means do, where else can you go ? what else can you do ? I would have certainly agreed with you had Bajwa stalled fencing plans, asked PA not to retaliate on LOC or stopped all types of Ops inside and outside Pakistan, had made an error of judgement during feb 2019 crisis etc, but he is getting the job done.

 

[crankthatskunk]

It will start of war like 1965, India and China will not fight but India will attack Pakistan if we do any miscalculated adventure.

US may also like to see that war to give some punishment to Pakistan for going with CPEC and China.

oh boy. Doomsday, right!!
It was said that China was urging Pakistan to attack India in 62, so the whole of Kashmir can be wrestle away from India. Pakistan dithered. It is doing same now. Shall I repeat "Pakistani men have no balls, Except few".

 

[dilpakistani]

A lot more of them are deployed along the 4000km of LAC this time. Surely our planners can see many voids in their defences. If hostilities do break out India will be short of manpower not us!

so 1.3 billion people will have shortage of manpower and 200million will not.. yea konsa maths hai bhai

 

[Ghost 125]

Historical Perspective Indian View
According to sources in the defence and security establishment, tensions at Depsang Plains can be traced to China’s 18-km incursion into the area, which is close to the strategic Daulat Beg Oldi base, in 2013.It was reported in 2013 that the three weeks of tensions triggered by the Chinese incursions had been resolved after talks, with India and China agreeing to go back. But sources said PLA soldiers never went back completely across the Indian perception of Line of Actual Control (LAC), and stayed behind the limit of patrolling points.However, Depsang is an area where the perception of the LAC is starkly different between China and India. According to locally established agreements, both sides were allowed patrolling until certain areas that fell into individual perceptions of the LAC, but sources said the practice “came under stress” after the Doklam stand-off of 2017.
“The Depsang issue is different from the current stand-off that is taking place between India and China. The Chinese have been blocking India’s patrol from bottleneck area to PP 11, PP12, PP12 A and PP 13. This has been happening from before the current tensions at LAC,” a source in the know said.
Another source said that Indians, too, have blocked Chinese patrols in the Depsang. However, this is because the Chinese perceived LAC is beyond the Bottleneck area (around 18-20 km from LAC) and just 1.5 km from Burtse.

Importance of Depsang Indian View
In 2013, the Chinese had managed to complete a road behind the Bottleneck area in what is known as the Raki Nala region. Indians used to go by foot beyond the Bottleneck area, through which, as the name suggests, it is impossible to take vehicles.

In April 2013, sources said, Chinese troops crossed into Indian territory and pitched tents for three weeks at Raki Nala, 30 km south of Daulat Beg Oldi, before they agreed to pull out. “However, they went back beyond the limit of Indian patrolling and not behind the LAC,” a source cited above said.

The Army has been tight lipped about the situation in Depsang but officers say enough men and material have been moved there to prevent any incursion by China.

Apart from its proximity to Daulat Beg Oldi, what makes the area more strategically important is that if the Chinese do decide to build up until what they perceive to be the LAC, they could then gain control of the Darbuk-Shyok-Daulat Beg Oldi (DS-DBO) road and also attempt to take over the Saser La pass, which could cut off Siachen Glacier for India.
This situation has been war-gamed multiple times by the northern command, the sources said.

“This all has been war-gamed. However, it is not the case that the Chinese can just come in and occupy these areas. The sub-sector north (which oversees Depsang and Daulat Beg Oldi) itself is very important for India and there is enough of defence already in place. More has been added in wake of the current tensions at LAC,” a source said.

Satellite images have shown increased Indian and Chinese deployments at Depsang Plains. The Chinese have deployed additional tanks and artillery guns and moved them slightly forward from their usual positions. But they are still away from India’s perception of LAC.

India has also moved additional men, tanks and other equipment into Depsang Plains to counter Chinese build-up.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1292089334133227529

VULNERABILITY OF DBO SECTOR AND PAKISTAN ARMY

Pakistan Army has a brigade HQ in Goma that provides supplies and ammunition to the Soldiers posted in that sector. Along the Shyok river there is a strategic village of Turtuk that we once held till 1971, commanding the vantage heights and access to Nubra valley. The only obstacle between Pakistan Army linking up to PLA is the SALTORO RANGE that lies in between. It is a harsh and inhospitable landscape, the way around is para dropping commandos over the Range and capturing the strategic SASER LA pass on the DBO road.

There were talks in the Indian media of Pakistan and PLA recruiting locals for the Al Badar outfit to carry out activities in that region.
https://freepresskashmir.news/2020/...lgit-baltistan-china-reviving-al-badr-report/

Northern Ladakh is the most vulnerable region of Indian held territory, which many Indian Generals highlighted in the past. Recently they have beefed up their defences by deploying a lot more Infantry and Armour. It is estimated that both PLA and IA have deployed 35000-40000 men here alone. The DBO- Durbak road has been completed recently, with as many as 35 bridges to defend, certainly a nightmare scenario.
Pakistan Army can add to Indian woes by just deploying additional troops in an aggressive posturing mode. Increase in air activities will add to further pressure on the Indians. Training friendly locals across the LOC ,for a whole range of Military objectives should be looked into. Any Military hardware that can help should be bought ASAP. Some long range artillery can be deployed to target the Indian Supply lines on the DBO road.

The US and its allies will try all their best to dissuade Pakistan to build up troops in this sector . If we want to liberate Kashmir and Kargil seriously now is the time, past experience suggests Western lollipops never materialise.
View attachment 659705

bottleneck area is under chinese control since 1962, there's nothing new in it. chinese perception of LAC always passed through this point and the physically held it always. they have ramped up their forces their but their is no intrusion at this specific point.

 

[Rank]

I cant do much about wrong perception based on biased thinking. What RS had started was carried on by Bajwa. RS started with Ops in KPK and it wasn't completed in his tenure. This was carried on by Bajwa in KPK and the last phase of Khyber-4 was completed in Bajwa's first year as COAS. Along with that Khyber-3 and Khyber-4, another Ops had started, Ops RUF, since TTP's back was broken and some of its ranks started to form smaller groups. Bajwa was already facing the hornet's nest stirred by RS. The sleeper cells spread throughout the country, the anti-state elements in Baluchistan and splitting of TTP as JUA and others had shown up post 2017. This history lesson is important to tell you that Bajwa faced and is facing much more than what RS faced and why ? Just like you and many others have a perception of Bajwa that he is " doing nothing" and blah blah, the same mentality had existed in anti-state elements, that Bajwa cannot do much and will spend his tenure quietly and walk away. The opposite happened in reality, he stepped up the Ops not just inside Pakistan to tackle every threat that showed up but you can also relate some action inside Afghanistan which was almost non-existent in RS tenure. So while you look at 2020 as loss of soldiers, the flip side is that 2020 witnessed action outside Pakistan also. The loss of own troops is unfortunate, it happened in RS tenure too and even before that and although it pains, as long as the war continues, there will be loss of life. If the war is stopped today, the loss of uniformed personnel will also stop but then civilians like yourself will pay the price with their life. There has been constant escalation on LOC also during Bajwa's tenure - another testimony that Bajwa has been successful in frustrating anti-state elements funded with India to an extent that India had no other choice to mount the pressure but escalate situation on LOC as well as in Baluchistan and Sindh. Bajwa along with IK and PAF has been instrumental in handling the Feb 2019 crisis through meetings, planning and him sending his message across from DG ISPR. The tit for tat response that comes now whenever militants show up was not previously seen. The tenure of a failed person is never extended which means Bajwa has been successful and thus his extension is justified, even though you and others might not agree. His planning and capability has certainly stirred up activity on all sides of Pakistan as well as inside Pakistan - means he is doing something correct. In this era of 5th gen warfare going towards 6th gen warfare, there will be Ops highlighted in media but most of the intel Ops will go in databases and remain there. India has shown frustration in LOC, Afghanistan has shown frustration on Pakistan's border check posts, elements inside Iran are stirring up against Pakistan and the insurgent nests inside Pakistan are cut down whenever they raise their necks. I know you want to vent out since you get this opportunity through PDF, by all means do, where else can you go ? what else can you do ? I would have certainly agreed with you had Bajwa stalled fencing plans, asked PA not to retaliate on LOC or stopped all types of Ops inside and outside Pakistan, had made an error of judgement during feb 2019 crisis etc, but he is getting the job done.

Sorry to say but poorly crafted

 

[Bossman]

oh boy. Doomsday, right!!
It was said that China was urging Pakistan to attack India in 62, so the whole of Kashmir can be wrestle away from India. Pakistan dithered. It is doing same now. Shall I repeat "Pakistani men have no balls, Except few".

How about you?

 

[Basel]

No. The situation is different at the moment. India has committed a big size of its army and air force on Chinese border from LAC to Aurnacchal Pardesh currently and no way India can bring them to Pak border in case of any Indo Pak war at this time. But this India China stand off will not last for ever. You have to take risk otherwise stop this drama of Kashmir 24/7.

Before taking any risk we will have to store required fuel and other stuff, preparing for war is not easy.

 

[crankthatskunk]

How about you?

Didn't I say about Pakistani men!!

 

[LeGenD]

@IceCold
@crankthatskunk

Brothers, with due respect.

I will not comment on the extended tenure part (Fellow Pakistani have the right to critic this matter), but COAS Qamar Javed Bajwa is a thorough professional and doing whatever he can to counter terrorism in Pakistan (Operation Radd-ul-Fasaad among others) as well as ongoing border fencing efforts. Give man the credit he deserve for his works.

Learn more about Operation Radd-ul-Fasaad from the following link: https://www.ispr.gov.pk/operation-radd.php

War On Terror is not an easy job given how terrorists tend to operate and blend among the masses. They are also known to cross borders to escape potential crackdowns from time-to-time. Just look at how many bad apples are being busted in Karachi - elements which draw support from Indian RAW agency.

Regarding the topic:

Pakistan should address the issue of IOK with utmost "sensibility." Opening a new front require significant amount of logistics and funding to ensure advances on the ground, and objectives should be realistic and attainable. Now factor-in environmental challenges, economic situation of the country, Indian countermoves and probable Red Lines.

Sitting behind a computer and typing stuff is easy. People need to understand that a 'major military operation' is much different from a border skirmish. Unless China is planning something big and is willing to extend its support to Pakistan in securing IOK, but environmental challenges (geographic features) will prevent a rapid takeover of this terrain - likelihood of potential advances coming to a standstill is high. Then International pressures and responses are to be considered.

Finding a way to bring India to the negotiation table should be the objective at most. If this can be achieved through diplomatic channels - much better.

 

[Khurram2349]

I have a question .......Lets assume Pakistan and China both have decided to go for full scale war with India to liberate Ladakh Kashmir etc. Indians themselves have said time and again that India alone cannot win a two front war with China and Pakistan combined . Lets assume Western powers and Israel are too busy in their own problems like Covid 19, Elections etc. and cannot come to rescue India . In this situation India is certain to loose and loose Ladakh , Kashmir, and even 7 sister states in the East . In other words India's existence as we know it now will come to an end.

Now comes my question . In a scenario when India is about to loose its existence , can India use its nuclear option on either Pakistan or China or both ??? And if India does it then what can be the response from China / Pakistan ? And ultimate fallout of this ?

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Finding a way to bring India to the negotiation table should be the objective at most. If this can be achieved through diplomatic channels - much better.

I mostly agree with your comments, regarding India 73 years of negotiations has only been a waste of time and a shackle to our growth. India will never relent an Inch with talks. We had opportunities in 1948 and 1962 but we only sufficed with Western lollipops. We have only two options take Kashmir by force(tandem intervention with PLA) or forever forget it and be friends with India.

Unless China is planning something big and is willing to extend its support to Pakistan in securing IOK,

China will go to any extent to safeguard its CPEC route, as it may have troubles doing trade across the Malacca Straits in future. China's survival is now linked to us.

 

[Sal12]

@IceCold
@crankthatskunk

Brothers, with due respect.

I will not comment on the extended tenure part (Fellow Pakistani have the right to critic this matter), but COAS Qamar Javed Bajwa is a thorough professional and doing whatever he can to counter terrorism in Pakistan (Operation Radd-ul-Fasaad among others) as well as ongoing border fencing efforts. Give man the credit he deserve for his works.

Learn more about Operation Radd-ul-Fasaad from the following link: https://www.ispr.gov.pk/operation-radd.php

War On Terror is not an easy job and task given how terrorists operate and blend among the masses. They are also known to cross borders to escape potential crackdowns from time-to-time. Just look at how many bad apples are being busted in Karachi - elements which draw support from Indian RAW agency.

Regarding the topic:

Pakistan should address the issue of IOK with utmost "sensibility." Opening a new front require significant amount of logistics and funding to enure advances on the ground, and objectives should be realistic and attainable. Now factor-in environmental challenges, economic situation of the country, Indian countermoves and probable Red Lines.

Sitting behind a computer and typing stuff is easy. People need to understand that a 'major military operation' is much different from a border skirmish. Unless China is planning something big and is willing to extend its support to Pakistan in securing IOK, but environmental challenges (geographic features) will prevent a rapid takeover of this terrain - likelihood of potential advances coming to a standstill is high. Then International pressures and responses are to be considered.

Finding a way to bring India to the negotiation table should be the objective at most. If this can be achieved through diplomatic channels - much better.

Sir, we all know Kasmhir cannot be freed by diplomacy or any means of negotiations but only by force.

So if Pak is too weak or frightened that Pak is not even sure of any tangible gains in Kashmir if she goes in a conflict with India at the time when India is already occupied in a stand off with China then we should forget Kashmir. Pak should also tell this straight to Kashmiris of IOK that they need to live under the clutches of India and there is no way Pak can help them militarily. Perhaps this way Indian brutalities will reduce in IOK and people of valley can live with some peace. Pak should also leave the drama of who condemns the Indian atrocities in IOK and who does not since condemnation wont bring the independence to people of IOK.

No matter how you try to defend Bajwa but Bajwa wont give you any results. You need to take risk if you want to change the history and opportunity does not come to the cowards.

 

[Qmjd]

I have a question .......Lets assume Pakistan and China both have decided to go for full scale war with India to liberate Ladakh Kashmir etc. Indians themselves have said time and again that India alone cannot win a two front war with China and Pakistan combined . Lets assume Western powers and Israel are too busy in their own problems like Covid 19, Elections etc. and cannot come to rescue India . In this situation India is certain to loose and loose Ladakh , Kashmir, and even 7 sister states in the East . In other words India's existence as we know it now will come to an end.

Now comes my question . In a scenario when India is about to loose its existence , can India use its nuclear option on either Pakistan or China or both ??? And if India does it then what can be the response from China / Pakistan ? And ultimate fallout of this ?

if a soldier didn`t fire his arm in war than who should?
if a country wants to destroy itself in nuclear war than who should save him from his maniac

 

[Qmjd]

Sir, we all know Kasmhir cannot be freed by diplomacy or any means of negotiations but only by force.

So if Pak is too weak or frightened that Pak is not even sure of any tangible gains in Kashmir if she goes in a conflict with India at the time when India is already occupied in a stand off with China then we should forget Kashmir. Pak should also tell this straight to Kashmiris of IOK that they need to live under the clutches of India and there is no way Pak can help them militarily. Perhaps this way Indian brutalities will reduce in IOK and people of valley can live with some peace. Pak should also leave the drama of who condemns the Indian atrocities in IOK and who does not since condemnation wont bring the independence to people of IOK.

No matter how you try to defend Bajwa but Bajwa wont give you any results. You need to take risk if you want to change the history and opportunity does not come to the cowards.

it's the death that made a man coward (clinging to life like it never ends)
the brave man never thinks twice

 

[Khurram2349]

if a soldier didn`t fire his arm in war than who should?
if a country wants to destroy itself in nuclear war than who should save him from his maniac

This is the question ........if a maniac like Modi knows he is going to be defeated and decides to use the nuclear option as last resort , knowing that both China and Pakistan will retaliate with their own nukes , that will be a nuclear war . In such scenarios how many nuclear bombs will explode in this war ? What will be the fallout of nuclear blasts and clouds on environment ? How much of the area will became inhabitable in this region considering three countries are bombing each other with nukes ? What will be left of Kashmir for which the whole war is being waged ?

There has to be such calculations done before starting anything big by any side !!!!!