Sikh and Hindu officers usher in a new era in Pakistani Army

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I think we understand our leader better than you do. The main theme was an Islamic State Pakistan(The land of Pak People referring to Muslims). And of course I would repeat again that non-Muslims are also welcome to live happily. Specially Sikh Community.

That is what you feel and state.

Unfortunately, your posts belie the fact!

I am sure you have not even read the address of Mr Jinnah for what you state is totally contrary to what Mr Jinnah stated.

But it sure is what the mullahs state.

It is time for you to research the issues of Pakistan before you opine so pompously.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

And since you display a total lack of knowledge of Mr Jinnah's address to the Constituent Assembly, may I, present this line of his for you to remember and memorise:

You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State.

Similarly, Jinnah had indeed come out forcefully against theocracy:

"Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims-Hindus, Christians and Parsis – but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan." [Feb. 1948, Jinnah’s broadcast address to the people of the United States of America]

Now go reconcile your statement about your knowing your leaders better.

Indeed if it were to be the Islamic State of Pakistan, how come it was not done in Mr Jinnah's time or by the Constituent Assembly?

 

[Comet]

That is what you feel and state.

Unfortunately, your posts belie the fact!

I am sure you have not even read the address of Mr Jinnah for what you state is totally contrary to what Mr Jinnah stated.

But it sure is what the mullahs state.

It is time for you to research the issues of Pakistan before you opine so pompously.

Where the hell Mullah came in?
its a different issue. we'll talk about it at some later stage at any other thread.

 

[Comet]

And since you display a total lack of knowledge of Mr Jinnah's address to the Constituent Assembly, may I, present this line of his for you to remember and memorise:

You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State.

Similarly, Jinnah had indeed come out forcefully against theocracy:

"Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims-Hindus, Christians and Parsis – but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan." [Feb. 1948, Jinnah’s broadcast address to the people of the United States of America]

Now go reconcile your statement about your knowing your leaders better.

Indeed if it were to be the Islamic State of Pakistan, how come it was not done in Mr Jinnah's time or by the Constituent Assembly?

This is also his speech

"Therefore Islam is not merely confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines or rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society, every department of life, collective[ly] and individually.", Eid Speech, September 1945



"Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of true Islamic ideals and principles", Karachi, October 1947


...in a broadcast address to the people of the United States of America in February 1948 - (ironically, the same speech of which a portion was quoted earlier by you as an example of Jinnah coming out forcefully against theocracy), Jinnah described Pakistan as
“the premier Islamic State”."


So I think any references to Jinnah are inconclusive as its clear from studying his political career that he was a master politician. His greatest skill was in uniting the liberal elite with the conservative layman – both groups were needed to separate from India and create Pakistan, which was his ultimate goal.


In an Eid message to the nation in 1945, he said:

"Every Muslim knows that the injunctions of the Quran are not confined to religious and moral duties. Everyone except those who are ignorant, knows that the Quran is the general code of the Muslims. A religious, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial, criminal and penal code; it regulates everything from the ceremonies of religion to those of daily life; from the salvation of the soul to the health of the body; from the rights of all, to those of each individual; from morality to crime; from punishment here to that in the life to come, and our Prophet (S) has enjoined on us that every Muslim should possess a copy of the Holy Quran and be his own priest. Therefore, Islam is not confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines and rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society in every department of life, collectively and individually"


And by the way don't bother memorizing these lines. These are useless to you!

 

[mujahideen]

Indeed if it were to be the Islamic State of Pakistan, how come it was not done in Mr Jinnah's time or by the Constituent Assembly?

You are mislead. in an Islamic State all are allowed to live.Not just Muslims. Non-Muslims have the same rights as Muslims in an Islamic state with a few exceptions, but they are not anything which is harsh. So if any one thinks in an Islamic state only Muslims are allowed to live they are wrong.

 

[Vinod2070]

You are mislead. in an Islamic State all are allowed to live.Not just Muslims. Non-Muslims have the same rights as Muslims in an Islamic state with a few exceptions, but they are not anything which is harsh. So if any one thinks in an Islamic state only Muslims are allowed to live they are wrong.

Tell me Mujahideen, would you as a Muslim, like the non-Muslim countries to give the same "rights" to their Muslim citizens as you propose for non-Muslims in the Islamic state? The right to live!

The only true test of a fair system is the golden rule:

Do unto others as you want them to do unto you.

 

[Always Neutral]

He is not mercenary infect he is not suppose to bother.

Because in Islam. Muslim Army can be given zakat to fund their campaing and their pays etc. But at the same time we cannot give zakat to non-Muslim if their are other needy Muslims. so you see there is this issue and many others that indirectly suggest that non-Muslims should not be bothered.

Then by your logic the Armed Forces cannot have women serving in it like Doctors etc as that to would be non-islamic ?

Regards

On a side note its good for the Pakistan Army to have any Pakistani serving in it irrespective of what his creed / religion is.

 

[Comet]

Then by your logic the Armed Forces cannot have women serving in it like Doctors etc as that to would be non-islamic ?

Regards

On a side note its good for the Pakistan Army to have any Pakistani serving in it irrespective of what his creed / religion is.

We have examples of women serving in battles in early Islamic times.
Currently every one is serving in Army with out any discrimination. But you guys are actually loosing the point. Non-Muslims are not discriminated in an Ideal Islamic State. There are two thing of a person related to State: 1) Responsibility 2) Rights.
Non-Muslims have equal rights but less responsibilities. This behavior of Islam is to, infect, create a soft corner in the hearts of non-Muslims for Islam and Muslims.

 

[Vinod2070]

We have examples of women serving in battles in early Islamic times.
Currently every one is serving in Army with out any discrimination. But you guys are actually loosing the point. Non-Muslims are not discriminated in an Ideal Islamic State. There are two thing of a person related to State: 1) Responsibility 2) Rights.
Non-Muslims have equal rights but less responsibilities. This behavior of Islam is to, infect, create a soft corner in the hearts of non-Muslims for Islam and Muslims.

And an example of that ideal Islamic state would be..............?

Fill in the blanks.

 

[Comet]

Be patient dude. You wont be that happy when you'll see one.

 

[Flintlock]

Be patient dude. You wont be that happy when you'll see one.

Which country today, according to you, has come closest to becoming the ideal Islamic state?

 

[Vinod2070]

Be patient dude. You wont be that happy when you'll see one.

I am not talking of distant future dude.

What about here and now?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

This is also his speech

"Therefore Islam is not merely confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines or rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society, every department of life, collective[ly] and individually.", Eid Speech, September 1945



"Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of true Islamic ideals and principles", Karachi, October 1947


...in a broadcast address to the people of the United States of America in February 1948 - (ironically, the same speech of which a portion was quoted earlier by you as an example of Jinnah coming out forcefully against theocracy), Jinnah described Pakistan as
“the premier Islamic State”."


So I think any references to Jinnah are inconclusive as its clear from studying his political career that he was a master politician. His greatest skill was in uniting the liberal elite with the conservative layman – both groups were needed to separate from India and create Pakistan, which was his ultimate goal.


In an Eid message to the nation in 1945, he said:

"Every Muslim knows that the injunctions of the Quran are not confined to religious and moral duties. Everyone except those who are ignorant, knows that the Quran is the general code of the Muslims. A religious, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial, criminal and penal code; it regulates everything from the ceremonies of religion to those of daily life; from the salvation of the soul to the health of the body; from the rights of all, to those of each individual; from morality to crime; from punishment here to that in the life to come, and our Prophet (S) has enjoined on us that every Muslim should possess a copy of the Holy Quran and be his own priest. Therefore, Islam is not confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines and rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society in every department of life, collectively and individually"


And by the way don't bother memorizing these lines. These are useless to you!

Please give links.

Eid Message is hardly authentic.

Are you suggeting that Jinnah straddled both the ideas in his speech in the US? Odd!

Even if what you write is taken into context, he was telling the men of Islamic faith how to live their lives.

What he saud in 1945 is usrely superseded by his Inaugural Addess to the Constituent Assembly in 1947. Maybe, he understood that having achieved Pakistan as a reality, the issue was good governance over religious bogotry!

Further are you aware that Jinnah when he was a Congressman, opposed Gandhi's use of symboic reiigion in politics?

 

[Comet]

Which country today, according to you, has come closest to becoming the ideal Islamic state?

None.
After the fall of Ottoman Empire the Ideal Islamic state was just a dream. Then came Pakistan but unfortunatly Pakistan couldn't become an Ideal State because of the Lack of Leaders

 

[Flintlock]

None.
After the fall of Ottoman Empire the Ideal Islamic state was just a dream. Then came Pakistan but unfortunatly Pakistan couldn't become an Ideal State because of the Lack of Leaders

I hope the mods don't mind this digression from the topic.

I would love to know umairp, what are the characteristics of an ideal islamic state.
Regarding its government, its laws, both criminal and personal, its attitude towards non-muslims and its education system.

Then we can compare your idea of an Islamic state with the Ottoman Empire, and see how close the resemblance is.