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Sikh and Hindu officers usher in a new era in Pakistani Army

I don't want to enter this usless debate since we are talking about an event that has happened and chances of its reversal are slim. However I do have a question.
If East Pakistan was generating most GDP then after independence why haven't they been able to improve their conditions? They are still the poorest in the world.
 
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Hazrat Umer was not Islam and he was not a prophet, and therefore his actions were not infallible.

He was not Islam but he was Second caliph. At least give him some respect. He was a democratic leader of Muslims at that time.
I want to know where the Quran says that non-Muslims should be treated like second class citizens.
Quran has mentioned at many places that non-Muslims shouldn't be suppressed but again Quran has mentioned that they are not your friend either.
We are not suppose to impose restrictions on them. Its just that they are welcome in Islamic State up to some Extent. Like sura taubah ch # 10.
On your claim of our religion being a "complete socio-economic system", that may be true, but it is also true that the system you mention is completely open to different interpretations. Look at the Taliban interpretation, look at the Saudi interpretation, look at the Iranian interpretation, and look at some of the more moderate scholars.

Which interpretation will be imposed?
I know of no other system BUT the one brought be Hazrat Mohammad SAW. The problem with us in 21st century is that we think that if we went for Islam we may loose much ( Like Talibans have and others have ).
Please tell me what was the brain working at the back end of Taliban? Nothing a few scholars from here and there and certainly they couldn't do every thing. We need brains in this situation. People who can think should be working so better solutions for the problems could be found.
Taliban were merely working on security issues. They never ever thought of looking at political(foreign affairs) and economic affairs. Perhaps they weren't equipped with the necessary tools that are required in 21st century.
 
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IS IT PAKITAN ARMY ? IS THIS MUSLIM PAKISTAI ARMY ? ARE THESE "THE SOLIDERS OF ALLAH" ? THESE SOLIDERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEFENCE OF PAKISTAN TO SAYING THIS " ALLAH-u-AKBAR " .ABSOLUTEY ANSWER IS "NO". THIS IS NOT THAT PAKISTANI ARMY WHICH WAS IN 1965 & 1971. " OHH ALLAH PLEASE HELP US " . WE ARE NOT GOING TO RIGHT WAY WE ARE GOING TO SINCK THE PAKISTAN. " ALLAH ! HELP US " PLEASE HELP US....................... ALLAH-u-AKBAR ! ! ![/QUOTE]

I am sorry to say this but now I got my answer; It is people like you who give Islam a bad name. In 1965 and 71 most of our heros were non-muslims. Specially IN PAF. They did say Allah-u-Akbar but in there own way. Who are you to judge them that are they soilders of Allah may be they are may be Allah is more on there side than a muslim why because a non-muslim is standing at our boarder with a gun so that you a muslim and your families can sleep peacefully.
OH Bahi M1A2 go read the quran with translation and then come and talk on this forum like that. In my opinion you are not even a pakistani, The above 3 people we are talking about have their faiths and we should respect them, If we goto war they will be standing right next to someone who prays 5 times a day and is ready to give his life for his country, He also prays and he is also willing to give his life for his country I repeat his country PAKISTAN.
Mark my words this Singh will one day have more than 1 star on his shoulder Inshallah.
What have you done for Pakistan tell me and why hide your name ???????
 
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IS IT PAKITAN ARMY ? IS THIS MUSLIM PAKISTAI ARMY ? ARE THESE "THE SOLIDERS OF ALLAH" ? THESE SOLIDERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEFENCE OF PAKISTAN TO SAYING THIS " ALLAH-u-AKBAR " .ABSOLUTEY ANSWER IS "NO". THIS IS NOT THAT PAKISTANI ARMY WHICH WAS IN 1965 & 1971. " OHH ALLAH PLEASE HELP US " . WE ARE NOT GOING TO RIGHT WAY WE ARE GOING TO SINCK THE PAKISTAN. " ALLAH ! HELP US " PLEASE HELP US....................... ALLAH-u-AKBAR ! ! !

I am sorry to say this but now I got my answer; It is people like you who give Islam a bad name. In 1965 and 71 most of our heros were non-muslims. Specially IN PAF. They did say Allah-u-Akbar but in there own way. Who are you to judge them that are they soilders of Allah may be they are may be Allah is more on there side than a muslim why because a non-muslim is standing at our boarder with a gun so that you a muslim and your families can sleep peacefully.
OH Bahi M1A2 go read the quran with translation and then come and talk on this forum like that. In my opinion you are not even a pakistani, The above 3 people we are talking about have their faiths and we should respect them, If we goto war they will be standing right next to someone who prays 5 times a day and is ready to give his life for his country, He also prays and he is also willing to give his life for his country I repeat his country PAKISTAN.
Mark my words this Singh will one day have more than 1 star on his shoulder Inshallah.
What have you done for Pakistan tell me and why hide your name ???????[/QUOTE]


Well said my friend !! This is the theme of the Indian Armed Forces. A nation belongs to all who live within it and those outside who love it. Religion, caste , creed, colour etc have no bearings on loyalty.

And now can we all get back to the subject of this thread ?
 
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I am sorry to say this but now I got my answer; It is people like you who give Islam a bad name. In 1965 and 71 most of our heros were non-muslims. Specially IN PAF. They did say Allah-u-Akbar but in there own way. Who are you to judge them that are they soilders of Allah may be they are may be Allah is more on there side than a muslim why because a non-muslim is standing at our boarder with a gun so that you a muslim and your families can sleep peacefully.
OH Bahi M1A2 go read the quran with translation and then come and talk on this forum like that. In my opinion you are not even a pakistani, The above 3 people we are talking about have their faiths and we should respect them, If we goto war they will be standing right next to someone who prays 5 times a day and is ready to give his life for his country, He also prays and he is also willing to give his life for his country I repeat his country PAKISTAN.
Mark my words this Singh will one day have more than 1 star on his shoulder Inshallah.
What have you done for Pakistan tell me and why hide your name ???????


Well said my friend !! This is the theme of the Indian Armed Forces. A nation belongs to all who live within it and those outside who love it. Religion, caste , creed, colour etc have no bearings on loyalty.

And now can we all get back to the subject of this thread ?[/QUOTE]

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!:cheers:
 
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Quote

So, let's see some concrete proof of discrimination. I could argue that Punjabis were underrepresented in the Pakistani leadership since not one single Punjabi led Pakistan between 1948-1971. 4 Bengali leaders led Pakistan during this time. The discrimination of it all.

Unquote

Pakistan's history is only 60 years old and people are forgetting already. As a student of history, please allow me to remind you;

Firstly, the Punjab before the partition was a very large province. It consisted of present day Haryana, Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab excluding Bahawalpur. If Hon Road Runner means only Doaba of east Punjab and West Punjab excluding Saraiki belt, than I would say that it is an extremely prejudiced view point.

Now let me count the leaders of Pakistan during 1948-1971 period that were of Punjabi origin.

1. Liaqat Ali Khan PM from 14 August 1947 to Oct 16, 1951. He was born in Karnal, Punjab son of Nawab of Karanal. State of Haryana which was carved out of Indian Punjab in 1966.

2. Ch Mohammad Ali PM from 12 August 1955 to 12 Sept 1956. He was born in Jalandher son of a village Patwari.

3. Malik Feroze Khan Noon 16 Oct 1957 to & October 1958. He was from Nurpur Noon, Bhalwal, Distt Sargodha; scion of one of the largest landowners of Sargodha.

4. Ghulam Mohammed Governor General from 19 October 1951 to 7 August 1955. Born and bred in Lahore.

In addition there were many Muslim stalwarts such as Sardar Abdur Rab Nasthar, Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan, Mian Mumtaz Daulatana, Nawab of Mamdot, and Mian Mushtaq Ahmad Gurmani etc.

It is a pity that lost of us have forgotten our brief history already

Now regarding non Muslim officers in Pakistani forces. There were hundreds if not thousands of British officers in Pakistan Army, Air force and Navy until 1958. Until we became a republic in 1956, our Army, Air force and Navy were called RPA, RPAF etc, with the pre fix 'Royal'. Lastly, I ask all those hankering after Khilafat and for turning Pakistan into an orthodox Sunni state (such as Laskhar Jhangvi etc) just look at Pakistan's flag. The very fact that one fifth is white, acknowledges that our founding fathers gave equal rights to non Muslim minorities and their loyalty to Pakistani should not be doubted unless proven otherwise.

It is a great pity that religious forces that were against Pakistan's creation in the first place have hijacked Pakistan after independence and will not rest until Pakistan is turned into another Afghanistan, ruled by the likes illiterate mullahs such as Mullah Omar designated as Amir ul Momineen. It is my Pakistan too and I will fight with all I have to counter these nefarious designs.
 
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where the Hell lashkare Jhangvi came in?


Khilafat is the ideaology that one should follow as Muslim.

Every where muslims are dividing themselve in smaller and smaller groups based on ethnicity and region and nation and so on.
Our sole existence is based on Islam and pure Islam. Any deviation from it would be devestating.
Read Quran and try to understand the meaning of Islam. And when something is said about Islamic state, the definition can be found in the Quran and Hadith.
 
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where the Hell lashkare Jhangvi came in?


Khilafat is the ideaology that one should follow as Muslim.

Every where muslims are dividing themselve in smaller and smaller groups based on ethnicity and region and nation and so on.
Our sole existence is based on Islam and pure Islam. Any deviation from it would be devestating.
Read Quran and try to understand the meaning of Islam. And when something is said about Islamic state, the definition can be found in the Quran and Hadith.

Ok I suggest you go to Iran and convince the Shia then. Or maybe certain parts of Iraq. I am sure they would welcome with open arms your interpretation of "pure" Islam.

The problem is that people are not as simple as YOU would like to think.


BTW make sure you sort out your will before you go.....
 
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Is it my fault that today muslims are divided.
I want the Pure Islam. Because I believe in Allah and his Messenger.
And the place I call home ( Pakistan ) is a land crafted for the very purpose to facilitate the people who want to live in acordance to shariat.
I accept that we have some bad examples in the name of Shariat but believe me we should not get away from the message.
And yes in the time of need services of Non-Muslims can also be availed in terms of planning, war and etc.
But the real thing is that the state should abide by the universal law ( Quran ).
 
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Is it my fault that today muslims are divided.
I want the Pure Islam. Because I believe in Allah and his Messenger.
And the place I call home ( Pakistan ) is a land crafted for the very purpose to facilitate the people who want to live in acordance to shariat.
I accept that we have some bad examples in the name of Shariat but believe me we should not get away from the message.
And yes in the time of need services of Non-Muslims can also be availed in terms of planning, war and etc.But the real thing is that the state should abide by the universal law ( Quran ).

Umairp,

Why is it your fault that muslims today are divided ?

Secondly, can I have comments from all on the portion highlighted in red. Is this how Pakistan sees Non Muslims ( 2lt Singh) & their utility ? Muslims in India do not feel so.
 
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I am not against them but I am not with these sort of Pakistani Army.We need pure Muslim Army.Not a kind of Turkish Army.We must need loyal Muslim Army.

Whats a pure Muslim ?

:coffee:

I never knew people could be unpure muslims ?

Guess you learn everday.

Regards
 
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Is it my fault that today muslims are divided.
I want the Pure Islam. Because I believe in Allah and his Messenger.
And the place I call home ( Pakistan ) is a land crafted for the very purpose to facilitate the people who want to live in acordance to shariat.
I accept that we have some bad examples in the name of Shariat but believe me we should not get away from the message.
And yes in the time of need services of Non-Muslims can also be availed in terms of planning, war and etc.
But the real thing is that the state should abide by the universal law ( Quran ).

Hon Friend, I respect your views but also sincerely believe that there is no such thing as 'pure Islam'.

The utopia of Khilafat is a myth. Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) time was spent in eliminating false prophets. Hazrat Omar's (RA) 12 year khilafat was the only time which can be termed as great. Inter Muslim discord had already started during Hazrat Osman's ( RA) term and Hazrat Ali (RA) there was fighting among the Muslims all the time.

While you quote the great Caliph Hazrat Omer (RA), you forget that the pure Muslims of the 'Rashideen' era also martyred Hazrat Osman (RA) in Medina. This was only 26 years after the passing away of our holy Prophet (PBUH). Muawiya then started a hereditary kingdom, ostensibly also known as Khilafat. Yazid martyred grandson son of the prophet ( PBUH) and in Abdul Mailk's time Hajjaj ibne Yusuf martyred grand son of Hazrat Abubakr (RA), Abdullah ibne Zubair inside the Kaaba and his head was hung from the gates of Kaaba until it fell off by itself.

Young men of today have been brainwashed by false history and have a very fictional idea of the past. True golden age was during the Abbaside Khalifas Haroon and Mamoon Rashid. There was little piety and this was the time of Alif Laila. I quote below a good article published in the Daily News




Blaming others

Tuesday, June 17, 2008
Farooq Sulehria

The Amnesty International report on human rights for the year 2007 is out. The Muslim world constitutes, as usual, bleakest chapter. Every single country across the Muslim world has been pointed out by the Amnesty International either for executions and torture or discrimination against women and ethnic and religious minorities. Punishments never handed down even during the Stone Age, have been awarded in 21st century Muslim world. In one case, two Saudi nationals were awarded 7,000 lashes. Yes, 7,000. And executions? Well, 335 in Iran, 158 in Saudi Arabia and 135 in Pakistan. Violation of human rights, it seems, is the only thing that unites the otherwise divided Muslim world.

The report is no exception. The Muslim world cuts a sorry figure every time a global watchdog releases its findings. Freedom of expression here remains curtailed, Reporters Sans Frontieres annually reports. Regarding freedom of expression, there is a joke often told in Arab world. At a meeting, a US journalist says: "We have complete freedom of expression in the US. We can criticise the US president as much as we like." The Arab journalist replies. "We also have complete freedom of expression in Arab world. We can also criticise the US president as much as we like."

Similarly, it is either Bangladesh or Pakistan or Nigeria which is on top of Transparency International's corruption indexes. However, when Nobel laureates gather in Stockholm every December, Muslim scientists and writers are conspicuous by their absence. In case, as Naguib Mahfouz is crowned, he is stabbed and rendered paralysed. The irony, or tragedy, is that his attacker had not even read his excellent books. Or we disown Dr Abdul Salam just because he belonged to the Ahmadiya community. Salam's case deserves special mention since it underlines the absurdity that characterises this part of the world.

When all else fails, "Jews" and "Christian" West are there to lay the blame for all our ills. Conspiracy theories instead of scientific, rational thought holds sway across much of the Muslim world. And every time a rights abuse is highlighted in Iran, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, a typical Muslim answer is: Look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Chechnya. True, imperialism and Zionism have a hand in our predicament. However, there are many wounds one can only describe as self-inflicted.

Take, for instance, the Iran-Iraq war, one of the last century's bloodiest conflicts. There is no denying the fact that the United States backed the Saddam regime. But it was the Arab sheikhdoms, panicked at the Iranian revolution, that stoked the flames of war. And, ironically, now in the post-Saddam era when the "Christian" West has written off Iraq's Saddam-era debt worth $66 billion, Iraq's Arab brothers refuse to write off that country's $67 billion loans.

Similarly, last century's bloodiest Muslim genocide was not carried out by Serbs, Israelis, Americans, Europeans or Hindus. It was Pakistan's military that refused to respect a democratic verdict and plunged East Pakistan, now Bangladesh, into an ocean of blood. Millions were killed, maimed, raped and rendered homeless. Luckily, Pakistan has a "Hindu" neighbour. "Hindus are born enemies of Islam'. Hence, Pakistani children are now taught that a Bengali traitor (revered by Bengalis as founder of Bangladesh), in connivance with our "Hindu" neighbour, dismembered Pakistan. Ironically, of all her South Asian neighbours, Pakistan enjoys most cordial relations with the world's only Hindu state, Nepal. The other big genocide was perpetrated by Indonesia. The target was: its own citizens who were members of the Communist Party.

Figures are not available but Israel perhaps cannot match Iran in executing Arabs. Iran's confessional regime is a champion of the Arab cause in Occupied Territories but Arabs of its Khuzestan province are regularly sent to the gallows. Seizing the opportunity, one may also point out how only recently Afghan refugees were driven out of Iran as if Afghan refugees were not as Muslim as Palestinians. And, by the way in the fallen "Emirate of Afghanistan" itself, Hazaras were slaughtered by the Taliban in their thousands almost a decade ago – mainly because Hazaras are Shia. In Iraq, more people have been killed in Shia-Sunni clashes than in resisting the US occupation. Shia-Sunni clashes in Pakistan have claimed more lives than those lost in its wars against India. Ironically, this only "nuclear power" of the Muslim world is not being occupied on its eastern front by its "Hindu" neighbour but is losing territory on its western front to its own citizens.

One can mention from the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait to the recent Hamas-Fatah infighting (a shameful tribute to Israel on its 60th anniversary). The list is long. Indeed, unending. However, the solution to all our problems is always simple: return to an imagined past which, mercifully for the people of the seventh century, never existed. Every time, a scientist in the West is ready with an invention, our readymade answer is: we knew about it 1,400 years ago what the West has found only now. We kill Theo van Gogh when confronted with a film. We burn down our own cities in response to a blasphemous and racist caricature. Still, we refuse to understand that our answer to every "provocation" is either a fatwa or mindless violence – perhaps because creativity is anathema to us. Not because we lack fertile minds, but because we lack liberation and freedom -- liberation from self-imposed mental, moral, and cultural censors. And freedom to think and express. Time to heed the great Syrian poet Nizar Qabbani, who said:



Five thousand years

Growing beards

In our caves.

Our currency is unknown,

Our eyes are a haven for flies.

Friends,

Smash the doors,

Wash your brains,

Wash your clothes.

Friends,

Read a book,

Write a book,

Grow words, pomegranates and grapes,

Sail to the country of fog and snow.

Nobody knows you exist in caves.

People take you for a breed of mongrels.



The writer is a freelance contributor. Email: mfsulehria@hotmail.com

Blaming others


However you are entitled to your views. I quote Voltaire
"While I don’t agree with what you are saying, I will defend till death your right to say it"

Regretfully, the kind of Pakistan that you aspire, few people would have a right to differ. They would simply be killed off.
 
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Pakistan's history is only 60 years old and people are forgetting already. As a student of history, please allow me to remind you;

Firstly, the Punjab before the partition was a very large province. It consisted of present day Haryana, Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab excluding Bahawalpur. If Hon Road Runner means only Doaba of east Punjab and West Punjab excluding Saraiki belt, than I would say that it is an extremely prejudiced view point.

Now let me count the leaders of Pakistan during 1948-1971 period that were of Punjabi origin.

1. Liaqat Ali Khan PM from 14 August 1947 to Oct 16, 1951. He was born in Karnal, Punjab son of Nawab of Karanal. State of Haryana which was carved out of Indian Punjab in 1966.

2. Ch Mohammad Ali PM from 12 August 1955 to 12 Sept 1956. He was born in Jalandher son of a village Patwari.

3. Malik Feroze Khan Noon 16 Oct 1957 to & October 1958. He was from Nurpur Noon, Bhalwal, Distt Sargodha; scion of one of the largest landowners of Sargodha.

4. Ghulam Mohammed Governor General from 19 October 1951 to 7 August 1955. Born and bred in Lahore.

Perhaps i should have been more clear then, since you're quoting me all Indian Punjabis with the exception of feroz khan noon. When I said "no Punjabi", obviously I was referring to Pakistani Punjabis. Feroz Khan Noon was the only Pakistani Punjabi to lead Pakistan, serving for a grand total of 10 months. The Bengali leaders (and since I've used only Western Punjab, I'll use only East Bengal), led for a total of 4 years between 1951 and 1955.

Is it "discriminatory" to class only Western Punjabi leaders as the Punjabis to compare with East Pakistani leaders? No, for 2 reasons.

1) If one compares East Pakistan or East Bengal, one should compare West Punjab and not the East part.

2) We are looking at whether there was discrimination by the Pakistani Punjabi elite. If there was discrimination by them, then Pakistani (west) Punjabis would have ruled for significant periods. The record shows asa fact, they ruled for 10 months, nearly 4 years shorter than East Pakistani leaders.

Of course if you were to compare Indian Punjabis with Bengalis, you can include the above. But then one should not lump Pakistani Punjabis with Indian Punjabis. I actually would be inclined to agree with the view that Indian Punjabis have led Pakistan for a disproportionate amount of time.

But let's just use your logic here and see how it turns out. Let's include all of Punjab as one. Punjabis (West and East) led Pakistan for a total of 6 years, and Bengalis (both East and West Bengal) led Pakistan for a total of 6 years. So the conclusion would be that the Pakistani political system was favourably biased towards both Indian Punjabis, and Bengalis. Pakistani Punjabis have never been favoured as much as the Indian Punjabis or the Bengalis. Now whether the Indian Punjabi leaders favoured the Pakistani Punjab region more than other regions is anm argument you could make, and I'm waiting to see evidence from you or anyone else that these Indian Punjabi leaders bestowed gifts upon Pakistani Punjab instead of East Pakistan. The same for the Bengali leaders of Pakistan.
 
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Hon Road Runner,

My problem is that I have very few prejudices; ethnic, linguistic or religious. I am for whosoever is good for Pakistan and against whosoever is IMO against Pakistan.

Me differentiating between Indian Punjabis and Pakistanis Punjabis? Perish the thought !!

Oh yes I have one prejudice. I love mangoes and think Pakistani mangoes are much better than Indian mangoes.:P
 
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Oh yes I have one prejudice. I love mangoes and think Pakistani mangoes are much better than Indian mangoes.:P
From Multan of course, enjoyed in the cool water of a tube well on a hot summer day in an orchard.... :smitten:
 
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