Should Pakistan Recognize Israel?

[R2D2]

American plan for overthrowing Assad govt in Syria was foiled by the combined resistance of Syrian government, Iran and Russia.

 

[LeGenD]

In practical terms, it will meaning legalizing Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians and that we will stop the voice raising for their rights. If viewed in strategic terms, China is the new entrant in the Middle East with the peace deal between Iran and Saudi Arabia. America is the receding super power and the latest India-Europe Corridor is a last ditch effort to revive American influence. Turkey is another entrant in the game and has proposed its own corridor. Russia and Iran failed American effort to overthrow the Assad government in Syria. In this context, Pakistan should oppose legitimizing of Israel as firstly it is the selling out the Palestinian people and the land and secondly, the American-Israeli Alliance is on the losing side in World politics.

American dealings in the Middle East have its ebbs and flows subject to various developments in the region - there is no such thing as US deciding everything for the Middle East on a continuous basis. This is unrealistic.

For perspective: US used to be a major buyer of Saudi oil but this dynamic changed due to Shale Revolution in US. China has become a major buyer of Saudi oil - new customer. Saudi used to have meaningful bilateral relations with the US - now Saudi are willing to work with both US and China as they see fit. China is also close to Iran so it was able to reduce tensions between KSA and Iran. However, KSA has not forgotten Iranian role in transforming Houthi into a significant fighting force and attacking Saudi infrastructure - KSA wanted to restore internationally recognized Yemeni government to power in Yemen. Saudi are understandably spooked.

American capacity to influence developments in the Middle East is still there and continues to show in different forms: (1) Israel becoming stronger; (2) UAE recognizing Israel; and (3) The India - GCC - Israel - Europe Corridor.

What else you want to see there? US attack and execute regime change in another country in the Middle East? Don't you see people criticizing this type of foreign policy?

Assad regime in Syria was exporting terrorists to Iraq since 2004 as per Iraqi accounts - this is correct. Obama administration decided to address this menace by launching Operation Inherent Resolve in 2014 to crush terrorists in Syria with support of a Syrian political force identified as the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF). But Obama administration assured Russia that it will not topple Assad regime in Syria; Obama and Putin had meetings to reach this understanding and both agreed to established hotline in Syria to better manage conflict situation in Syria.

Legitimacy of a state is established with international recognition in United Nations (UN) in modern times - this practice has continued since 1947. Israel received international recognition as a state in UN Resolution 181 in 1948. This is a fact that cannot be denied. But UN decided to split modern Palestine into two states in view of growing tensions between Muslim and Jewish communities on the ground: Palestine and Israel with Jerusalem under UN control. Related information in here.

This development was not rationally handled at the time - a group of Islamic countries attempted to wipe out Israel in 1948 but the war concluded with Israel gaining more lands including access to Jerusalem and defeat of invading sources. Before this, Hitler attempted to wipe out Jews in Europe but the World War 2 concluded with his defeat and death. There must be something more at play in these matters - something beyond humans. Perhaps [our] hot-headed approach to address this issue is wrong.

Two state solution would have worked if war had not broken out, but this is no longer the case. Now one-state solution might work. The objective should be to put pressure on both parties to accept each other and declare Masjid Al-Aqsa a World Heritage Site. Jews have pointed out that they can rebuild their Temple next to Masjid Al-Aqsa.

This was not a Pakistani problem to begin with. Pakistan recognized India in spite of the situation in IOK.

American-Israeli Alliance is on the losing side in World politics? Funny man.

American plan for overthrowing Assad govt in Syria was foiled by the combined resistance of Syrian government, Iran and Russia.

Assad regime in Syria was exporting terrorists to Iraq since 2004 as per Iraqi accounts - this is correct. Obama administration decided to address this menace by launching Operation Inherent Resolve in 2014 to crush terrorists in Syria with support of a Syrian political force identified as the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF). But Obama administration assured Russia that it will not topple Assad regime in Syria; Obama and Putin had meetings to reach this understanding and both agreed to established hotline in Syria to better manage conflict situation in Syria.

Syrian Civil War = 2011
US and SDF join hands to defeat ISIL in Syria = 2014
Russian arrival in Syria = 2015

Imaginary victories you have in mind.

 

[Haldorss]

This development was not rationally handled at the time - a group of Islamic countries attempted to wipe out Israel in 1948 but the war concluded with Israel gaining more lands including access to Jerusalem and defeat of invading sources. Before this, Hitler attempted to wipe out Jews in Europe but the World War 2 concluded with his defeat and death. There must be something more at play in these matters - something beyond humans. Perhaps [our] hot-headed approach to address this issue is wrong.

The approach is not wrong..... What's wrong is the middle east is not advanced technologically. Remember that Israels only claim is the distant history. But distant history includes their original invasion of the region, too. If you cave into them one of the leaders will convert to Judaism in time and then completely subvert the country through the elites, as is happening in Pakistan. It's a one way ticket if the middle east caves in to Nato. You can see the complete control their system has over everyone across Europe and the Anglosaxon states.

 

[LeGenD]

The approach is not wrong..... What's wrong is the middle east is not advanced technologically. Remember that Israels only claim is the distant history. But distant history includes their original invasion of the region, too. If you cave into them one of the leaders will convert to Judaism in time and then completely subvert the country through the elites, as is happening in Pakistan.

If this was the case then Israel would not have agreed to return Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in a peace deal in 1982. Israel had also overrun all of the Palestinian lands in war but vacated them as per Oslo Accords.

British Empire created modern Palestine by splitting Transjordan in 1922 as per the Balfour Declaration. The rationale behind this partition was to create a separate Jewish state (1). This piece of land was a part of the Ottoman Empire in earlier times and its ownership shifted throughout history. This piece of land have historical, religious, and spiritual significance for Jews from the time of the Hebrew Conquest of ancient Palestine - then known as the Philistines having created a conglomeration of city-states in the region. Prophet Musa (Moses) AS secured freedom of Hebrews from the ancient Egyptian Empire with guidance of Allah Almighty. Hebrews initially settled in the Sinai Peninsula but Allah Almighty instructed these people to take their chances with the Philistines to ensure their survival - this was the promised land.

One state solution = restoration of the modern Palestine as in 1922 where Jewish and Muslim communities can co-exist peacefully. War will lead to complete eradication of one camp and it does not seem to be Israel.

This matter should be addressed - and peacefully.

 

[Haldorss]

If this was the case then Israel would not have agreed to return Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in a peace deal in 1982. Israel had also overrun all of the Palestinian lands in war but vacated them as per Oslo Accords.

We can assume that was under duress and after stealing the extra pieces of land they gained. Returning sinai is not a gratuity if it's stolen.

British Empire created modern Palestine by splitting Transjordan in 1922 as per the Balfour Declaration. The rationale behind this partition was to create a separate Jewish state (1). This piece of land was a part of the Ottoman Empire in earlier times and its ownership shifted throughout history. This piece of land have historical, religious, and spiritual significance for Jews from the time of the Hebrew Conquest of ancient Palestine - then known as the Philistines having created a conglomeration of city-states in the region. Prophet Musa (Moses) AS secured freedom of Hebrews from the ancient Egyptian Empire with guidance of Allah Almighty. Hebrews initially settled in the Sinai Peninsula but Allah Almighty instructed these people to take their chances with the Philistines to ensure their survival - this was the promised land.

I don't care about British made up borders other than to say they're foreign and illegitimate. But you forgot about the Canaan people who were invaded by Hebrews and their land stolen, as it says in the scripture, but at least you admit the Philistines were invaded too.

One state solution = restoration of the modern Palestine as in 1922 where Jewish and Muslim communities can co-exist peacefully.

I don't think it's a restoration because of the regime. The western system is corrupt and it's guaranteed to be weaponized.

War will lead to complete eradication of one camp and it does not seem to be Israel.

You're advocating genocide of Palestinians. But seem to have a problem if it's Israel. Why not focus on building forces that can eradicate the Israel side?

 

[R2D2]

Eradication of Israel is possible through engaging them in a long term guerilla war in Syria and Lebanon. Iran and Russia will finance this war. Mujahideen from all over the Muslim World will join this fight. Zionists will loose their economy and the soldiers and population will become demoralized and return to their countries of origin. The Arab countries can then join in a frontal attack and finish off Israel.

 

[Haldorss]

One state solution = restoration of the modern Palestine as in 1922 where Jewish and Muslim communities can co-exist peacefully.

Why did the British intervene in something already peaceful? The native americans and hawaiians don't have a homeland and no one has a problem with it. Neither do the khalistanis. At the minimum, the borders should be changed even in jordan to stop the Anglosaxon-Jewish interference between middle east and Egypt/Africa (as my thread points out).

 

[LeGenD]

We can assume that was under duress and after stealing the extra pieces of land they gained. Returning sinai is not a gratuity if it's stolen.

Israel had sufficient strength to maintain full control of Sinai peninsula if it wanted to. Israel continues to maintain full control of Golan Heights in Syria for instance. But the difference is that Egypt decided to resolve its outstanding differences with Israel with a level-headed foreign policy - the outcome is that Egypt has recovered Sinai peninsula without firing a single shot and have ensured safety of Gaza as well. Syria on the other hand...

I don't care about British made up borders other than to say they're foreign and illegitimate. But you forgot about the Canaan people who were invaded by Hebrews and their land stolen, as it says in the scripture, but at least you admit the Philistines were invaded too.

This is not about your feelings but understanding ground realities. Then League of Nations (LN) body approved partition of Transjordan with creation of modern Palestine across the Jordan River in 1922. Jordanians were onboard with this arrangement. Related information in here.

Philistines were settled in Canaan. Allah Almighty gave permission to Hebrew to make this move. Who are WE to judge?

I don't think it's a restoration because of the regime. The western system is corrupt and it's guaranteed to be weaponized.

Oslo Accords could not happen without Israeli nod. Mahmoud Abbas is respecting Oslo Accords - why he should spill blood for a cause that is not yielding results? To appease Jihadi types?

You're advocating genocide of Palestinians. But seem to have a problem if it's Israel. Why not focus on building forces that can eradicate the Israel side?

Don't put words in my mouth. I am not advocating genocide of Palestinians.

I am pointing out a fact that Israel will consume Palestinian leftovers by force if war continues. This is already happening.

How many rockets Hamas has thrown on Israeli cities? Did it make a difference? Carry on with this hot-headed approaches and continue to see results. Israel would have dismantled Gaza but Egypt has kept Israel at bay.

Egypt’s role in Gaza: More than a mediator

Egypt often mediates between Hamas and Israel, but its role in Gaza extends to control of the Rafah border crossing.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Haldorss]

How many rockets Hamas has thrown on Israeli cities? Did it make a difference? Carry with this hot-headed approaches and continue to see results. Israel would have dismantled Gaza but Egypt has kept Israel at bay.

Certainly quieten down for the time being...... you're right about the present. I wouldn't throw all stakes out over the present.

 

[Haldorss]

I think it should be mentioned that the liberalism white Anglosaxon countries espouses I believe is a charade as far as it concerns foreign policy. They can turn on the conservatism on a dime and behind the scenes they are deeply conservative. How I think it applies to something like this is to get concessions with the charade, knowing they're inauthentic about "liberalism". All my opinion.

 

[A Voice of Reason]

Eradication of Israel is possible through engaging them in a long term guerilla war in Syria and Lebanon.

Some of you guys here crack me up. It is precisely this mindless attitude that has kept Israel strong and seperate and inShallah safe and thriving.

The truth is that the most dangerous threat to tiny Israel's survival even today would be through being absorbed into the region through friendship, intermarriage and conversion.

The love Jihad while still a threat today would actually have been at its most effective prior to 1967. The Israeli population would have been at its most secular and vulnerable to being abosrbed. Since that time the Israeli internal demographic pendulum has slowly and relentlessly swung against this threat.

Israel needs more of this attitude of yours. Amongst all this normalization business the Israelis need reminding of their uniqueness through outside hatred. Please do not let anyone convince you of any other alternative approach. They should be erecting statues in your honour.

 

[khansaheeb]

Whatever the final decision, it should be taken based on pragmatism and a cost-benefit analysis, not superficial chest thumping about an Arab-Jewish conflict where even the Palestinians are shaking hands with your enemy, Indians

As for the low IQ islamists thinking they are going to free Palestine unilaterally, get mental help ASAP

Exactly Hitler type thinking, look where he ended up.

 

[R2D2]

Some of you guys here crack me up. It is precisely this mindless attitude that has kept Israel strong and seperate and inShallah safe and thriving.

The truth is that the most dangerous threat to tiny Israel's survival even today would be through being absorbed into the region through friendship, intermarriage and conversion.

The love Jihad while still a threat today would actually have been at its most effective prior to 1967. The Israeli population would have been at its most secular and vulnerable to being abosrbed. Since that time the Israeli internal demographic pendulum has slowly and relentlessly swung against this threat.

Israel needs more of this attitude of yours. Amongst all this normalization business the Israelis need reminding of their uniqueness through outside hatred. Please do not let anyone convince you of any other alternative approach. They should be erecting statues in your honour.

Love Jihad like the one that was done to Bill Clinton by Monica Lewinsky so as to bring him down due to his stance against Israel. You guys are real low life sending your Jewsih women to your opponents.

 

[Vikramaditya-I]

Pakistan is not a right-wing country. Never has been. You know nothing of Pakistan.

For example India has voted in extremist and racist parties into power multiple times. Pakistanis are too civilized and caring to vote in a mass murderer.

haha, it always has been. What do you think Pakistan is? A Secular and Socialist republic? Pakistani society is conservative as well as the polity.

Don't care about India, it's not in the scope of the topic.

 

[delta2]

haha, it always has been. What do you think Pakistan is? A Secular and Socialist republic? Pakistani society is conservative as well as the polity.

Don't care about India, it's not in the scope of the topic.

No, you just proved that you know nothing of Pakistan.

Indians have continuously voted for a mass murderer, one that believes a cow is his literal mother, regularly drinks cow urine and seeks "blessings" from cow dung.

Secularism only exists in China and in the once USSR, and in the West. India is a right wing Brahminist ruled Hindu extremist country that has right wing nutjobs at most of the powerful positions.

Pakistan is not a right wing society. If it was, the majority would have not voted for or tolerated the minorities in powerful political and bureucraric positions since decades.