Sheikh Abdul Aziz Killed - Violence Flares in Kashmir

[dr.umer]

Here comes what these guys are good at... BLAMING... I think they need some professional psycharitic help to come out of this ISI phobia. Unless Indian Govt accept its own mistakes, it will never come out of crises. Insteading of thinking what their Govt SHOULD DO, these fools are thinking what ISI MAY BE doing.

J&K blockade staged by ISI to help Hurriyat?
14 Aug 2008, 0103 hrs IST, Vishwa Mohan,TNN

NEW DELHI: As the agitation in the Kashmir valley against a "non-existent" economic blockade continues, Pakistan's intelligence agency, ISI, may be hoping to get through what it has failed to achieve all these years — project its loyalists in the Hurriyat Conference as the real representatives of the popular sentiments in the Valley.

The observation was made by senior intelligence officers during high-level meetings on Tuesday-Wednesday amid mounting evidence that Hurriyat was using the contrived complaint of 'economic blockade' to nudge the people to look towards Pakistan-controlled Muzaffarabad. ( What else they expect? In the recent WTO meeting, commerce minister Kamal Nath waxed eloquent about his determination to protect Indian farmers against depressed prices arising from cheap imports. It never occurred to him that Kashmiri farmers might face not just depressed but zero prices if they were prevented from sending their produce either into Jammu or Pakistan.)

The home ministry on Wednesday released figures countering the claim of agitationists in the Valley about the economic blockade and arguing that truckers and unions of fruit growers openly aligned with Hurriyat were also engaged in myth-making about the blockade.

Claiming that there is no blockade at all along the Srinagar-Jammu highway, the ministry said as many as 236 trucks and tankers carrying oil, gas, sheep, medicines and poultry products crossed the Jawahar Tunnel from the Jammu side early on Wednesday morning. Of these, 82 trucks and tankers had reached Srinagar by afternoon, it said.

Referring to the stranded trucks in the Valley, an official said a fleet of them actually belonged to one individual known for his close affiliation with Hurriyat. The transporter refused to move his vehicles towards Jammu despite the promise of full security cover along the route.

Home ministry officials said that the decision of some of the fruit growers and truckers had more do with secessionist politics than any genuine security concern.

On Wednesday, home minister Shivraj Patil also told Prime Minister Manmohan Singh that there was no blockade on the Jammu-Srinagar highway and adequate security personnel were deployed for uninterrupted movement of vehicles.

The figures only confirm the suspicion that the blockade had been staged as part of ISI's design to help Hurriyat occupy the space which had till now been occupied by political parties.

"It has long been one of the objectives of the ISI to project the Hurriyat as the true representative of the Kashmiris. Though it failed in the past, it now appears to have gained some ground towards it this time particularly when even the mainstream political party PDP became part of the design by joining Hurriyat's 'march to Muzaffarabad' call," said a senior home ministry official.

The official also pointed out how this episode has even brought two sections of the Hurriyat — the group of Mirwaiz Umer Farooq and the rebel faction led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani — together.

"The solution to the Amarnath land row may be arrived at sooner than later, but the matter which brought the Kashmiris on roads has relegated the efforts for normalcy in J&K to the background," said the official, referring this to be the biggest worry of security and intelligence agencies.

The Times of India

 

[IceCold]

UN monitoring deteriorating situation in held Kashmir​

Updated at: 0728 PST, Thursday, August 14, 2008
UN monitoring deteriorating situation in held Kashmir UNITED NATIONS: The United Nations is monitoring the worsening situation in Indian occupied Kashmir in the wake of the killing by Indian troops of 15 people staging a peaceful march, but offered no immediate comments.

“The Secretary-General (Ban Ki-moon) is aware of the situation and we are monitoring”, Farhan Haq, a U.N. spokesman said in reply to a question by a Pakistani correspondent at the regular noon briefing.

“We do not have extensive comments at this stage,” he said, adding, “our human rights colleagues in Geneva are also aware of it (the situation) and determining whether to make any comments.”

The questioner pointed out that Kashmir has become a “hot spot” as he also sought the secretary-general’s comments on the killing of Hurriyat leader Sheikh Abdul Aziz by Indian security forces.

“I don’t have anything further to say,” spokesman Haq said.

UN monitoring deteriorating situation in held Kashmir - GEO.tv

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

I got a better idea....let the indian army leave...they love india so much ,go back to your own country

I guess they must be comfortable in Indian Kashmir, afterall they love every part of India from Kanyakumari to Himalayas, don't they

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

I guess they must be comfortable in Indian Kashmir, afterall they love every part of India from Kanyakumari to Himalayas, don't they

Please stop BS-ifying the thread and stick to the subject. you're wasting precious space on this forum with useless one-liners.

 

[Contrarian]

Malay its not about whether UN can do anything or cannot, frankly i don't think UN can do much about it, but this is not what we are discussing, i said that Kashmir is disputed and as long as UN has Kashmir in the list of disputed territories it will be one irrespective of what one nation thinks. As for the veto, yes it will be done however what you need to realize is by doing veto, does not change the fact over the status of the territory, rather it reflects personal interests. All countries including the US has said that they want a peaceful resolution to this dispute, why do you think they say that if this is indeed an Indian territory? US has even said that it is willing to act as a third party if two main parties India and Pakistan agree, but every time India rejects it calling it a bilateral issue and even that has changed now as India has started calling it as its own territory.

Fine mate, valid point.

While i don't wanna sound heroic and patriotic in that sense where one is high on emotion and low on reasoning, but the part that we took was not handed over to us in a dish rather we took it by force.

Mate, the part that Pakistan has was taken over before the Indian Army ever got there. It is when Pakistan started occupying land there, that the Indian Army was asked to enter. When Pakistan entered, it was a free walk with only the King's troops there, nothing much to talk about!

What i mean is that since the time Kashmir acceded to India, no amount of direct or indirect military force has been able to take Kashmir away. No country in the subcontinent or for that matter even in the continent has the wherewithal(military) to actually physically remove Kashmir from India by force.

Don't try to mix issues as the two are completely different issues. What purpose will this scape goat serve for Pakistan and its leaders. Absolutely nothing. In fact the last thing we would want to do now is to create another issue for Pakistan.

This is the one issue that unites Pakistan as well as the extremists who are on the warpath against the Pakistani state. It serves as a rallying point. I'd say it is of great significance especially now.

This thing has created a pretty huge cry in Pakistan as all were calling it a direct involvement by India in our matters. I'll try to find the exact article that geo was quoting yesterday.

And i dont find this article saying that India wants Musharraf to stay. It only says that if Musharraf goes, there will be a political vacuum. And isnt it right? You tell me mate, as of now, the civilian government isnt exactly calling all the shots, its not the real center of power.

What Pakistan has been trying was going on and off with different governments having different Kashmir policy with PP and Musharraf government hurting the most. And about the difference, dude even if Kashmir stays with you, once the hard line approach is adopted, both countries will remove all energies from all sectors and will start pondering money into defense, that doesn't make any difference for you,

Mate, Pakistan and India have been at it for a long time now, and this includes the very recent Kargil War. It wont hurt India half as much as it would hurt Pakistan. India has the money and economy to sustain an arms race, Pakistan doesnt. As a direct consequence, Pakistan will ask for military aid/help from US/China, which would further compromise its sovereignty. I dont wish to flame at this point, but you dont see the US attacking Indian territories without permission. Neither would they in the future. Pakistan has paid a great price in its desire to match India gun for gun till now.

also don't come up with India does not see Pakistan as a threat because honestly speaking it does and once we get back to square one, India will see even more.

Sure, Pakistan is a threat, but not near to what it was a decade ago or what it was prior to that. India has moved beyond Pakistan, two factors count here-economy and military. In relative terms, Pakistan isnt close to what it was matching India like it did in the prior decades. Pakistan will truely have to practice minimum credible detterence now, because till last decade, Pakistan not only had minimum credible detterence, it was an equal military to match India.

As things get more and more expensive, Pakistan will have to have a minimum deterrence as opposed to an equal military machine.

And as for the military imbalance that you are talking about, you forget that those things are yet to come in the Indian arsenal for e.g the MRCA of western origin, or your AC's or anything that could seriously shift the balance in India's favor, the rest more or less we are equal,

No mate, that used to be true some time back, not any more. All the things you mention are already on order including RFP's already released. None of the equipment is in the planning stages, all of it is in the tendering process, from new arty guns to planes, from carriers to subs. Its either under construction or in the tendering stage, no vague plans. You know, it will fructify, and at this point, Pakistan does not have the money to match even half the things.

only difference lies in numbers and that too declining in terms of your air force.

You have seriously fallen prey to the Indian media reports. The Indian CoAS played on the public sentiment to get the MRCA tender released soon. Allow me to ask you a simple question, if the Indian AF levels are declining because of retiring old platforms, dont you think Pakistani AF too has to retire its old planes? The letter of the CoAS was absolutely brilliant-he deliberately removed all of India's old planes from the equation while still keeping Pakistan's current strength and added its intended acquisitions!

The imbalance in the Airforce is also rising mate.

You have not reached world power status that no one can challenge you, so don't come up with this full of emotion patriotic statements of no county in the region can challenge you. If you were that powerful you would have attacked us back in 2002 when that drama about attack on the Indian parliament was staged. Infact we made you realize how flawed your war machinery is resulting in the new doctrine of yours called the cold start.

Its not that simple about attacking another country mate. There was a serious flaw in the military machine. The mobilization took around 2 months! A ridiculously high time. That flaw is being rectified.

Bottom line is that unless and until a permanent solution accepted to all parties mostly importantly accepted to the kashmires, no peace and development can bee seen even though if India maintains its control over the territory.

Thats Kashmir's problem. I'd rather Jammu and Leh/Ladakh not suffer because of Kashmir. I say make Jammu a new state with Leh/Ladakh as its part and make Kashmir valley a Union Terrority. Remove Article 370, then we will really see some change.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

I concur, there's no peaceful solution to this dispute.

One cannot find millitary soultion to be working either, statistically speaking all your major attempts have failed miserably, direct as well as proxy.

Best we can do is to continue to give moral support to the Kashmiris in their struggle for peace and justice and let them do their job

How about converting LOC to border and leaving the work of jihad entirely to Kashmiris themselevs. Let Kashmiris fight it out. Seems like they are having a free ride on your backs up untill now

There've been documented attempts by western media to bring some of the attrocities commited by IN in Kashmir to the light and I'm sure there will be more in future incase more civilians and moderate leaders get killed.

Nope forget it, I am sorry for being blunt. Kashmir does not sell, Mugabe sells in Britain, while AJad and Hilton sell in US.

Watch this 48 min ducumentory shot by western media, its an eye opener, a must watch!

What does the opening of the video say?

The documentary is low against any standard of video reporting, the pretty face occupies nearly 60 % of screen time, always trying very hard to look serious. I f she is judged as the standard of journalism, then I bet I can make Paksitan look real bad talking to people right in the cenre of Islamabad. Ask any western media faculty worth his salt. Looks like a student project.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

This is a straw-man argument thrown up by some Indians to wiggle out of the fact that the status of Kashmir is radically different from anything else, and find excuses for ignoring the UN resolutions and completing the condition of plebiscite attached to the Instrument Of Accession.

AM you seem to be pinning too much hope on UN, as reflected from many of yur previous posts. Mate UN is not a central organisation with a central authority. UN is made up of nation states, each having its own weihtage just like major corporations add weightage to stock exchange. Unfortunately for you Bankimoon does not call shots nor does Malloch Brown. States with most weightage seem to be siding with India and ignoring your calls for decades, even when the 400 pound gorilla(US) was in your camp. Heck you can't even manage to pull in China to pressure India. So with nation states not by your side all your hues and hopes will fall on empty buidings at New york.
To sum it up, UN wil play no role in this dispute . Period

Cheers
IPF

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Please stop BS-ifying the thread and stick to the subject. you're wasting precious space on this forum with useless one-liners.

Thanks, woud highly appriciate if you follow suite.

 

[Contrarian]

To the contrary, MMS is the one who backed off recently with ''we cannot have business as usual". Pakistan has continued to work on CBM's, such as liberalizing its trade and investment policy towards India and working on easing travel restriction and expanding the existing facilities.

Obviously there cannot be business as usual if Pakistan is trying to bomb our embassies and/or the civilian government doesnt have control over their own intelligence agencies.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM you seem to be pinning too much hope on UN, as reflected from many of yur previous posts. Mate UN is not a central organisation with a central authority. UN is made up of nation states, each having its own weihtage just like major corporations add weightage to stock exchange. Unfortunately for you Bankimoon does not call shots nor does Malloch Brown. States with most weightage seem to be siding with India and ignoring your calls for decades, even when the 400 pound gorilla(US) was in your camp. Heck you can't even manage to pull in China to pressure India. So with nation states not by your side all your hues and hopes will fall on empty buidings at New york.
To sum it up, UN wil play no role in this dispute . Period

Cheers
IPF

I am not pinning any hope on the UN - that is a categorical misrepresentation of my argument.

I merely pointed out to Ghatak why Pakistan is completely within its bounds to protest events in Kashmir - which is because of the disputed status of Kashmir. There was no reference on my part regarding the status quo, about whether the status quo can be changed, nor how it can be changed.

These arguments, tangential to the point I was making, are what I have referred to as 'straw-man arguments', dredged up to deflect from the fact that Pakistan has a legal right to protest events in Kashmir, being a party to the disputed territory, and such protests are not 'interference in the internal affairs of India'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Obviously there cannot be business as usual if Pakistan is trying to bomb our embassies and/or the civilian government doesnt have control over their own intelligence agencies.

There cannot be 'business as usual' when baseless accusation such as these are hurled at Pakistan or its institutions. We are all familiar with the charade of blaming the ISI for all of India's ills, and for that matter the GoA picking up on that and blaming Pakistan for all is wrong in Afghanistan.

On the latter the sheer absurdity of Karzai came to the fore when he stated that there were no insurgents in Afghanistan, and that NATO was only killing civilians in its bombings, and NATO should therefore bomb Pakistan. Just ludicrous.

Both the arguments raised have been debunked in their respective threads, no need rehashing them again.

But regardless of where blame is assigned, the point is that it is a little too late for India's bluster about 'hurting bilateral relations'.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Indian held Kashmir rightfully belongs to any Indian, just like I have equal rights over Kerala or Bihari has equal rights over Andhra Pradesh.

nope, it's disputed territory. if you think it belongs to everyone else in india, feel free to settle keralites or biharis there. i'm sure you'd get a welcoming reception.

Period. If you still persist, then come and get it, there is no such thing as free lunch where you can expect us to hand Kashmir to Pakistan in a platter ,

don't worry, we'll do that. we can do it on our whim whenever we feel like it, just like we always do. if you think you can "punish" us like you claim, please feel free to cross the LoC, or better yet the border.

just because you think you are the vangaurds of Islamic world, then why dont't you raise the isse of Chechenya train mujhids to fight Israel.

since when did pakistan become the vanguard for the islamic world? pakistan is meant to be a secular state, there is no obligation on it to help the islamic world. yet, that isn't the case is it?

Pakistan already has foreign militants within its territories including Chechens and Bosnians. we've helped muslim countries in times of war, many times. besides, you seem to mention this "vanguard" theory on your own as well as other indians. which means you seem to believe in it more than any one of us.

All this talk about Kashmir from you is nothing but juts a low cost way of land grab fuelled by your insecurity over water supply. So kindly save your pious plattitudes and get down from your moral high horse.

IPF

now, now, there's no need to mud-sling insults after you know you can't support you territorial claims legally. after all, pakistani flags are hoisted in Kashmir, so I think we have the moral high ground here.

 

[Contrarian]

There cannot be 'business as usual' when baseless accusation such as these are hurled at Pakistan or its institutions. We are all familiar with the charade of blaming the ISI for all of India's ills, and for that matter the GoA picking up on that and blaming Pakistan for all is wrong in Afghanistan.

Or news reports that constantly state that the US has also pointed fingers at Pakistan for the bombing.

But regardless of where blame is assigned, the point is that it is a little too late for India's bluster about 'hurting bilateral relations'.

Doesnt matter. Bilateral relations dont matter here. This present issue will die down like always, but if Pakistan continues to remain hostile and makes such statements to cash in on the oppurtunity, it hurts Pakistan most.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Or news reports that constantly state that the US has also pointed fingers at Pakistan for the bombing.

Those would be what I am referring to as being debunked.

Doesnt matter. Bilateral relations dont matter here. This present issue will die down like always, but if Pakistan continues to remain hostile and makes such statements to cash in on the oppurtunity, it hurts Pakistan most.

So what exactly is your point?

If bilateral relations don't matter, why shouldn't we protest?

And if they do matter, India has, with the litany of issues I outlined earlier, provocative statements, ceasefire violations etc., already ruined the atmosphere.

Pakistan stands to lose nothing by protesting Kashmir in the current atmosphere, because the GoI has indicated that it isn't interested in sincere discussions on anything. Even the IPI negotiations have been postponed reportedly till the 123 deal is finalized (or not).

India has nothing on the table for Pakistan right now so empty rhetoric about 'losing something', that isn't even on offer, is pointless and not very impressive.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Okay boys - calm down and keep it civil.

None of the 'come and get it' crap.