Sheikh Abdul Aziz Killed - Violence Flares in Kashmir

[ejaz007]

Two dead as protests continue in IHK

* Kashmiri Muslims announce strike on India’s Independence Day

SRINAGAR: Police shot dead one Muslim protester in Srinagar as huge crowds took to the streets of Indian-held Kashmir on Thursday over a land row that is testing New Delhi’s hold on the troubled Himalayan region.

Seven other demonstrators were wounded when police opened fire to disperse protesters. Protesters torched a police vehicle and hoisted green flags in several areas of the Kashmir valley.

A Hindu activist committed suicide in Jammu by swallowing insecticide in protest against the government, police said.

The dispute began after the Kashmir government promised to give forestland to a trust that runs Amarnath, a cave shrine sacred to Hindu pilgrims. Many Muslims were enraged.

The government then rescinded its decision, which in turn angered Hindus in Jammu who attacked lorries carrying supplies to Kashmir valley and blocked the region’s highway, the only surface link with the rest of India.

Police in the Kashmir valley have killed at least 22 Muslim protesters this week, inflaming tensions. More than 500 people have been injured.

Strike: Separatist groups called for a general strike and labelled Friday as a “black day”.

“I strongly condemn the reign of terror let loose by the Indian forces against the besieged people of Kashmir,” said separatist leader Mohammed Yasin Malik, adding, “Indian troops cannot suppress our struggle.”

Police and soldiers increased security around a stadium in Srinagar where India’s Independence Day celebrations are to be held on Friday. reuters

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[Goodperson]

Pictures tell more than thousand words, they're taken from Srinagar.

They don't look like terrorists or extremists but just comon people, men, women and children asking for justice.

Absolutely, But is only few hundreds or thousands who support dissidence. And they do not represent feeling as a whole.

Moreover Pakistan is only dreaming and interested that Kashmir will join them but pakistan does not have anything to offer to them.

Sometimes I feel India should follow Chinese footsteps in crushing dissidence as seen in Tibet and Muslim-populated Xinjiang region anyways Pakistan does provide selective support to Chinese methods.

Ever wondered why images of Tibet and Xinjiang protest are not posted here ?

 

[IceCold]

Absolutely, But is only few hundreds or thousands who support dissidence. And they do not represent feeling as a whole.

Moreover Pakistan is only dreaming and interested that Kashmir will join them but pakistan does not have anything to offer to them.

Sometimes I feel India should follow Chinese footsteps in crushing dissidence as seen in Tibet and Muslim-populated Xinjiang region anyways Pakistan does provide selective support to Chinese methods.

Ever wondered why images of Tibet and Xinjiang protest are not posted here ?

As usual other issues are being dragged into inorder to support the limbless argument of yours. First tell me is Xinjiang a disputed territory, has China taken the matter to the UN? if not why in the **** has it to be dealt in this manner and drag into every Kashmir thread. Also in case you forgot, the pictures of Chechnya are not posted here either. Stop bull shitting and trying to produce similarities between issues where none exists actually. Kashmir is not your personal matter, while Xinjiang of China is, and so is Chechnya for Russia. Pakistan India and Kashmiri are parties involved in this dispute other wise Kashmir would not have been added into every declaration from Shimla to Lahore declaration and before that in the UN. The one thing that is real is because the territory is under the Indian rule with your 700000 strong army there, you can do whatever you like or call the issue as your internal or whatever you want to call it or perhaps like Malang was saying Kashmires can go to hell. Other wise it will remain as a disputed territory and we will support this cause no matter what happens. And as for Pakistan not having anything to offer them, you don't know that and by the way we have seen what India is offering to Kashmir and its people. Sixty plus years passed and Kashmires still celebrate your freedom day as a black day.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Absolutely, But is only few hundreds or thousands who support dissidence. And they do not represent feeling as a whole.

250,000 protesters in one area alone is not a few hundred or thousand.

Moreover Pakistan is only dreaming and interested that Kashmir will join them but pakistan does not have anything to offer to them.

That would be the choice the Kashmiris would make, their opinion, not yours.

 

[Goodperson]

As usual other issues are being dragged into inorder to support the limbless argument of yours. First tell me is Xinjiang a disputed territory, has China taken the matter to the UN? if not why in the **** has it to be dealt in this manner and drag into every Kashmir thread. Also in case you forgot, the pictures of Chechnya are not posted here either. Stop bull shitting and trying to produce similarities between issues where none exists actually. Kashmir is not your personal matter, while Xinjiang of China is, and so is Chechnya for Russia. Pakistan India and Kashmiri are parties involved in this dispute other wise Kashmir would not have been added into every declaration from Shimla to Lahore declaration and before that in the UN. The one thing that is real is because the territory is under the Indian rule with your 700000 strong army there, you can do whatever you like or call the issue as your internal or whatever you want to call it or perhaps like Malang was saying Kashmires can go to hell. Other wise it will remain as a disputed territory and we will support this cause no matter what happens. And as for Pakistan not having anything to offer them, you don't know that and by the way we have seen what India is offering to Kashmir and its people. Sixty plus years passed and Kashmires still celebrate your freedom day as a black day.

No use of chest thumping or boasting here. Intentions behind Pakistans support for Kashmir is well known, Kashmir is not a disputed territory for India it is one of the states. Pakistan dreams of Kashmir as it has Muslim majority.

The issue here is of cancellation 99 acres of land which was leased for construction of facilities for pilgrims for Amaranth shrine. Obviously people of Jammu felt outraged hence the trade got affected for the duration of protest.
Dissidents saw chance to flare up the issue by suggesting trade with ***( P.O.K) which the GOI did not allow and imposed curfew people died breaking the curfew.

Where does Pakistan come in to picture here ?

 

[Goodperson]

250,000 protesters in one area alone is not a few hundred or thousand.

250,000!!! are you kidding ? as per neutral source it was 20000. (12 Killed In Clash At Protest In Kashmir - washingtonpost.com)

That would be the choice the Kashmiris would make, their opinion, not yours.

The protest is blockade of trade route not joining Pakistan.

 

[Contrarian]

Malay, check the WOT and Strategy sections for the threads. Main point being that no evidence illustrating institutional support from the ISI has been provided (by India, Afghanistan or the US), and even the contacts with Jalaluddin Haqqani, that allegedly form the basis of the US accusations, have been explained.

Pakistan does retain contacts with some Taliban groups, but that is different from plotting terrorist attacks- though rogues cannot be ruled out.

I believe it is the rogue's which were being pointed out. But that they were ins significant numbers as a lot in the ISI still have sympathies with the Taliban and maintain their earlier friendship.

Pakistan won't go back to sponsoring the insurgency unless India pushes it to do so, by upping the ante in destabilizing Pakistan. It is up to India to indicate that it is interested in putting the peace process back on track, since she is the one to take it off track, for Pakistan to not comment.

Tell me, how is India destabilizing Pakistan? Everytime i hear is that what are the 6 or 7 consulates in Afghanistan doing? Does having 7 consulates in Afghanistan constitute support for Baloch insurgency? Or are you going to mention the news report that the 'structure' of the guns found by baloch insurgents is the same as that of the Indian embassy guards?!

The provocative statement was to blame Pakistan without evidence (as usual), therefore it was entirely India's initiative to vitiate the atmosphere. The ceasefire violations were also analyzed, and I would argue that the Indian claim was debunked since they issued several conflicting statements - check my posts in the ceasefire violations thread.

Another ceasefire violation today. Read it in the other thread.

The same old bogey of 'support for terrorism' does not fly. Pakistan has dramatically reduced support for infiltration into Kashmir for several years now, something acknowledged by some Indian analysts as well, despite the warnings every year of 'hundreds of fighters waiting to enter IK', never happened.

Its not as if Pakistan had a lot of choice. It was pressured into WoT. It did not have the room to maneuver there. Now that US and Pakistan are falling out, Pakistan seems glad to send a couple of fighters each time from here and there.

The terrorism in India too has its roots within India as shown by the recent bombings, and probably always did but India was more interested in blaming the ISI hours after every blast.

Yes, there are. But you find that the money to support them inevitably comes from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. What does that tell you? ISI is supporting them albeit indirectly.

All of this indicates only one thing, that India is back to vitiating the atmosphere by dredging up these canards of 'sponsoring terrorism' without evidence, and that has had a direct impact on bilateral atmosphere.

India has stated time and again, that bilateral relations can truly move ahead only when Pakistan's support for terrorism stops.

Next time there is turmoil in AK/NA's, India is within its rights to protest, beyond that it isn't.

I will remember that next time mate, when there is a statement released by India and everyone here protests about it.

 

[Contrarian]

malay, the US violates everyone's sovereignty. if they were right next door to india, you would be in the same position as us. believe, there's nothing you can do about it.

No mate. That is not true. This happens because Pakistan is crucially dependent on the US. This ranges from economic aid, debt waiver to military aid. This gives US tremendous leverage over Pakistan. Things dont really happen in Pakistan without US consent. They can keep or remove any leader in Pakistan. Its their game so to speak. And this is only and only because Pakistan spends money it does not have on arms to match India. Thus, it has to ask US for favourable conditions, and aid for other social projects and economy that it draws money from to support its military works. Its a vicious cycle.

This leads to lack of necessary investment, FDI, and increases unemployement. Have you noticed that most of the FDI in Pakistan has been in the real estate sector? Something that doesnt really add much to the economy, whereas it should have been in manufacturing, IT, among others.

malay, pakistani's have a habit of making things worse than they already are. the economy is not in ruins, it still works. our current defense budget is frozen, it won't go up for probably a year depending on the situation.

Oh i know, the economy is not in ruins, its running. But its like going back to the 90's. Pakistan asking S.Arabia for oil aid, some other arrangements for debt waiver, other things that starkly tell you, things arent running properly. What im trying to point out, is that when Pakistan draws money from the economy to sustain its military, its economy goes to tatters. While then Pakistan may have the military gear to match or exceed India, it suffers internally. Then you see US and other countries think of Pakistan as their extended territory.

the same events will continue to happen for time to come, until the US leaves afghanistan.

US is not leaving Afghanistan for a long time mate. None of the US presidential candidates have even hinted at leaving Afghanistan. Infact one of them suggests a return of emphasis to Afghanistan.

don't worry about NWFP/FATA, there has always been some trouble in all of our provinces. the same Mehsud tribe has caused problems in the 60's, believe me, everything works out in the end. the taliban are not taking over karachi, that's just a threat tactic to make it look like they are winning. actually the situation has only gotten better, Mehsud's group is breaking apart. they are using civilians in their own tribe as shields against air strikes, you can see where this is going. And believe me, once the tribe has enough they won't just overthrow Mehsud, they will kill him.

I hope for Pakistan's sake that it happens. But until it does, you have to deal with the situation. Not me, not any other country, but Pakistan which has to do it. And i dont see the required commitment-these peace deals, the way i see it are a face saving sham and hurt Pakistan more in the long run.

no, Malay it's much different from before. as for your 36 J-10's, Musharraf has personally seen the aircraft upclose. I don't think it gets any better than that, the chinese have offered their best aircraft personally. even if we don't contribute anything in the AWACS project, there is still ToT.

Mate, J-10 is woefully lacking in most parts apart from a lot of posters getting emotional over it. I dont construe vague reports from Chinese that 1 J-10 beat 10 Su-27/30's of theirs!
Fact was that Pakistan itself was greatly disappointed by the J-10 in terms of avionics and capabilities. China is yet to produce its own engine which itself is a direct copy of a Russian one, and that too with help from Russians! Now, i'v been hearing the reports that this engine is just about ready, in the final stages, almost in production and whatnot for the last 3 years! Its not comming out now, its going to take time.

Defintely there is ToT mate. But Pakistan as of now, lacks a lot of experience in radars, in AESA research among a variety of things. ToT comes in various stages-India till the 90's apart from some particular products boasted of ToT that amounted to little more than screw driver technology in reality. That means it could only carry out minor repairs and replacements, for anything major the system had to be invariably sent back to Russia costing money.

ToT can only be gained when you have a real research and industrial base that can absorb the technology.As of now, Pakistan lacks that, while it maybe able to blindly follow procedures to create a product, it would lack the necessary base to modify it or enhance it.

and trust me, there's a lot more indigenous efforts in pakistan than what you see here on this forum. pakistan keeps these things hidden from the public like any other country should.

I know, but many people are quite knowledgeable who already guess many things

-Though i profess, im not one of them

 

[Contrarian]

I am sure you do not mean Malay by that.

Quite a gentleman he is, always civil.

no! of course not. this is the first time i've had a discussion with Malay Sahib, he always keeps it civil unlike some others. at least Malay provides facts and details unlike someone else who runs on pure speculation.

Why Thankyou Guys! [:blush:]

 

[dr.umer]

I believe it is the rogue's which were being pointed out. But that they were ins significant numbers as a lot in the ISI still have sympathies with the Taliban and maintain their earlier friendship.

Intelligence agencies work in different manners. They need to eliminate as well as they need to penetrate the network. In order to do so they adopt stretagies. Don't you tell me that RAW never maintained any contacts with dozen of freedom movements going in India.


Tell me, how is India destabilizing Pakistan? Everytime i hear is that what are the 6 or 7 consulates in Afghanistan doing? Does having 7 consulates in Afghanistan constitute support for Baloch insurgency? Or are you going to mention the news report that the 'structure' of the guns found by baloch insurgents is the same as that of the Indian embassy guards?!

Yes for sure. India is destabilizing Pakistan. Pakistan has proves. If you do not need to belive the press, sorry, but i am unable to arrange a visit for you to ISI HQ in ISB and make you have a meeting with DG to show you the proves. Don't be like I will believe what i like to believe. Facts are all around us. Accept them or don't accept them. But atleast don't deny them.

Another ceasefire violation today. Read it in the other thread.


Its not as if Pakistan had a lot of choice. It was pressured into WoT. It did not have the room to maneuver there. Now that US and Pakistan are falling out, Pakistan seems glad to send a couple of fighters each time from here and there.


Yes, there are. But you find that the money to support them inevitably comes from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. What does that tell you? ISI is supporting them albeit indirectly.

Again you are quoting ISI from India's ISI phobic press. Please show some proves as you don't believe in press reports

India has stated time and again, that bilateral relations can truly move ahead only when Pakistan's support for terrorism stops.

Unless India stops support for terrorism in Pakistan, Sri lanka & Bangladesh, objectives of regional peace can not be achieved

I will remember that next time mate, when there is a statement released by India and everyone here protests about it.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

250,000!!! are you kidding ? as per neutral source it was 20000. (12 Killed In Clash At Protest In Kashmir - washingtonpost.com)

The funeral alone had 50,000 in attendance... But most international sources indicate, without a number, that these were the biggest protests in 20 years. The previous ones most sources say were 30,000 to 60,000 - so I'd say that while 250,000 may be on the high side, close to a hundred thousand is not.

Regardless though, definitely more than a few hundred or a thousand as you stated - and these are just the ones that actually came out to protest.

"His body was driven through Srinagar and accompanied by an estimated 50,000 residents, many of whom chanted "We want freedom" and "We will spill blood for blood."

AFP: Indian Kashmir violence escalates, 13 killed

The protest is blockade of trade route not joining Pakistan.

My response was not about the protest. Read your post and my reply to it again.

 

[dr.umer]

Some pictures of Kashmir....Burning....

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[dr.umer]

For once, can’t blame ISI

Amit Baruah, Hindustan Times
August 14, 2008

India has scored an own goal in Jammu & Kashmir. By firing and killing unarmed protesters on the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road on Monday, security forces have added fat to the fire raging on the Amarnath land issue in both the Valley and Jammu.

The flip-flop is much like the rigged elections of 1987, which presented a “cause” to separatist elements. The land issue has again provided separatists in Kashmir and fundamentalists in Jammu a handle to rekindle their constituencies.

“This is a very big dent in our claims to a secular Jammu & Kashmir,” Lt Gen. VR Raghavan, founder of the Chennai-based Centre for Security Analysis, told HT. “We have gone out of our way to disprove our claims on Jammu & Kashmir for the past 60 years... These are all sparks (the agitation). There is a cauldron out there (in J&K). All this will be exploited by others.”

Ironically, as fruit-growers of Kashmir wanted to make a point about taking produce across the LoC, India and Pakistan were all set to open trade across the LoC in October. An agreement on setting up customs posts on either side of the LoC, too, had been reached. What remained was a formal accord on the list of items to be traded, both Indian and Pakistani officials said. Suddenly, this looks like a distant prospect.

In any case, this was not the Kashmir of February 1992, when Pakistani forces fired on Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front protesters trying to cross the LoC, killing seven. This is a Kashmir where residents can legally cross the LoC, by scheduled bus services and at designated meeting points.

But, suddenly, with curfew imposed across the Valley and even Jammu, it’s beginning to look like the old Kashmir — where curfew, firing and militant violence was the norm; not the exception.

Former Naval chief L. Ramdas, chairman emeritus of the Pakistan-India Peoples Forum for Peace and Democracy, felt that internal developments in Kashmir would impact the bilateral dialogue process. “At the official level, nothing much will happen (in the dialogue process),” he said by telephone from Alibaug in Maharashtra.

It’s our own mess. We can’t even blame the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate of Pakistan.

But still ISI phobia of Indian press exists. Please check

Zee News - ISI masterminded economic blockade drama in J&K

 

[Goodperson]

The funeral alone had 50,000 in attendance... But most international sources indicate, without a number, that these were the biggest protests in 20 years. The previous ones most sources say were 30,000 to 60,000 - so I'd say that while 250,000 may be on the high side, close to a hundred thousand is not.
Regardless though, definitely more than a few hundred or a thousand as you stated - and these are just the ones that actually came out to protest.
"His body was driven through Srinagar and accompanied by an estimated 50,000 residents, many of whom chanted "We want freedom" and "We will spill blood for blood."

AFP: Indian Kashmir violence escalates, 13 killed

Atleast you agree now that it was not 250,000 or exaggeration.

My response was not about the protest. Read your post and my reply to it again.

My response was about Neo's images which was one sided and they had been clubbed with anti India statements and how Pakistan sees as beneficial to itself.

The protest is about Blockade and violence.

 

[Flintlock]

Its quite simple - the problem is of our own creation (atleast the immediate problem), but the ISI is obviously taking full advantage of the situation.