Selex ES radar & other technology on JF-17?

[rockstar08]

One of the best Thread i come across so far ..
I am here to read , wont be writing or asking Question unless i have a very important one

keep it up @Quwa @Khafee @Blue Marlin @MastanKhan

 

[Tank131]

.

IMO, involving the private sector would indeed overcome the iota of doubt between the parties regarding leak of secrets though yet i don't see any firm around but could be done.

All the best.

Given the long standing history of cooperation (over one decade on 4 separate projects with even local manufacturing) i dont see selex not trusting PAC to keep their IP interests. In all the discussions about previous radars I neglected to mention the 2009 agreent for co-production (likely just local assembly from kits) of the Selex Galileo Falco UAV. Pakistan has had very deep level of involvement with Italy and selex/fiar which now with Falco, spans 2 decades. With the exception of China, US, and France, Italy is the largest defense partner of the last 20yrs and probably the most reliable after china. I doubt PAC would find it difficult to get SELEX to agree to this.

Think about this, the majority of PAFs current fleet of non F-16 or JF-17 fighters are flying with ITALIAN RADARS FROM SELEX (252 out of 342), not to mentiom the multiple F7p that have retired not the 25 falcos in service at a time when few western countries reliably dealt with Pakistan in defense contract. You dont throw that kind if reliable cooperation away when being offered top knotch systems. I dont SELEX nor Italy would find PAF NOR PAC that stupid.

 

[Khafee]

Even if cost is not a issue for us still I would hesitate to trust Europe in defence matters until and unless they allow us to produce radar systems in Pakistan

Well that is very difficult, but the next best thing, would be the ability to MRO. That would insure everything keeps on working even in the unfortunate event of an embargo. Critical parts that cannot be built in house, can be stocked in advance.

This is NOT an ideal situation, but it would definitely be a very big deterrent, besides obviously giving Pakistani defence industry a cutting edge benchmark, to work against

 

[Basel]

PAF is already doing it with the F-16 fleet.

You have the high end Blk52's, then the MLU, and then the ex-Jordanians. So something like this could very well work.

PAF will have hi-lo mix of JF-17s, it was backup plan if due to some reasons they can not get desired number of F-16s or any other new frontline jet. Which seems happening now.

 

[Khafee]

There was a misconcept in marketing this aircraft as a " cheap & inexpensive aircraft "

This is why earlier in the thread I said, leave the JF-17 on the trajectory it is going, AND come up with JF-19. An F-16 replacement, with all the bells and whistles.

You have to consider it form the POV of the buyers as well. Believe me some of the decision makers are as dumb as a brick. They wouldn't know the difference between a Blk5 F-16 and a Blk60. Keeping in mind that big ticket defence purchases are sometimes more political, than financial, or requirement based. So it would be advisable to separate the two.

This also gives PAC the chance to incorporate composites, like the Chinese. You would effectively be coming up with a totally different aircraft, hence the different model number - JF-19.

Now this is one option that @Quwa has come up with i.e.Selex. Now lets think of the worst case scenario, what if Selex bows to foreign pressure and says "NO". Then what? Who has AESA radar, IRST, advanced composite tech available for Pakistan? China & Russia.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Well that is very difficult, but the next best thing, would be the ability to MRO. That would insure everything keeps on working even in the unfortunate event of an embargo. Critical parts that cannot be built in house, can be stocked in advance.

This is NOT an ideal situation, but it would definitely be a very big deterrent, besides obviously giving Pakistani defence industry a cutting edge benchmark, to work against

an mor would be the best solution here. italy wont transfer tech as it expensive and uncle sam wont like it. an mro is the best solution here

 

[Khafee]

Sorry for going offtopic Sir but you are
Undermining your enemy here which spend 5 time's
Of Its budget on R&D and training and upgrading its technology

For Now i only advice you to do bit more research on Latest Mig-29Upg and M2k
Let me you hint

Latest MiG-29 Upg of IAF is only 4th gen fighter aircraft in South Asia mouted with AESA jammer's Including DRFM

ایک اور بن بولیے باراتی کی بقواس برداشت کیجیے ​

 

[cerberus]

ایک اور بن بولیے باراتی کی بقواس برداشت کیجیے ​

ఇది కేవలం ఒక పర్సెప్షన్ గిట్టని గొన్న హేట్ వాజ్

జాగ్రత్త
సెర్బెరస్

 

[Tank131]

This is why earlier in the thread I said, leave the JF-17 on the trajectory it is going, AND come up with JF-19. An F-16 replacement, with all the bells and whistles.

You have to consider it form the POV of the buyers as well. Believe me some of the decision makers are as dumb as a brick. They wouldn't know the difference between a Blk5 F-16 and a Blk60. Keeping in mind that big ticket defence purchases are sometimes more political, than financial, or requirement based. So it would be advisable to separate the two.

This also gives PAC the chance to incorporate composites, like the Chinese. You would effectively be coming up with a totally different aircraft, hence the different model number - JF-19.

Now this is one option that @Quwa has come up with i.e.Selex. Now lets think of the worst case scenario, what if Selex bows to foreign pressure and says "NO". Then what? Who has AESA radar, IRST, advanced composite tech available for Pakistan? China & Russia.

I dont think making a 2nd fighter for marketing purposes is worth it. There are numerous ways to market a fighter and put it into the world market at different points. Marketing to a low defense budget country? Market on the chinese systems which offer strong performance at reliable rates. Afterall countries like Argentina and sri lanka dont have the defense needs that egypt would. They also dont have the $. But acountry like Azerbaijan or Egypt or Nigeria have many more defensive needs and more $ and may want something more robust with more advanced tech. For them a more western speced JF-17 may suite their needs. "Our fighter can be expensive or cheap... But will always be much cheaper than the competition while offering similar-to same-better performance, with great reliability of the product and suppliers. JF-17 is the only fighter in the world that was designed by an airforce's personal requirements. Let us make yours the way you need it. " that is the marketing pitch

 

[Khafee]

Will acquiring a western radar mean we will have to abandon Chinese AAMs for JF-17. As per my understanding traditionally weapons and radar are sourced from similar origin. One of the JF-17s greatest plus points has been its capability to field China's latest missiles. China has even more advanced AAMs in R&D and they should be available soon.

If that is the case Pakistan should stick to Chinese and offer western options only as per client request.

Unless the radar manufacturer has issues, which they should not, it's Your radar, Your missiles.

Nobody thought that MICA would be integrated with F-16, But.............?

I dont think making a 2nd fighter for marketing purposes is worth it. There are numerous ways to market a fighter and put it into the world market at different points. Marketing to a low defense budget country? Market on the chinese systems which offer strong performance at reliable rates. Afterall countries like Argentina and sri lanka dont have the defense needs that egypt would. They also dont have the $. But acountry like Azerbaijan or Egypt or Nigeria have many more defensive needs and more $ and may want something more robust with more advanced tech. For them a more western speced JF-17 may suite their needs. "Our fighter can be expensive or cheap... But will always be much cheaper than the competition while offering similar-to same-better performance, with great reliability of the product and suppliers. JF-17 is the only fighter in the world that was designed by an airforce's personal requirements. Let us make yours the way you need it. " that is the marketing pitch

Right. You are not making a 2nd fighter, you are improving on the existing one. You are segregating for a reason. Your first priority is your requirement, not exports. Secondly, AESA radar, built-in IRST, built-in EW suite, composites, will not only increase the price tag, but changes the generation as well. This itself will help you market the JF-17, showing the world what PAC is capable of.

And yes I agree with you, given the target market, this is how it should be marketed "Let us make yours the way you need it."

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Really nice thread. Read every post and then thought to chip-in with some of my own brain farts
Firstly, there was a post about PAF problems in near future with regards to Rafale and MKI. No one can deny that these are coupled with good IAF SAMs coverage are the most critical challenges for PAF.
Now to the bright side, out of all IAF Sukhoi fleet, 50% is not available at any given time. Rafale delivery will not start before 2018 to be earliest.
Now, PAF and other services all have some strategy at higher level. You will all agree that Pakistan can never match India 1 to 1 considering 1:8 difference by size. At the moment, Indian defense budget is crossing Pakistan's total Federal budget. What do you expect should be the procurement strategy for PAF?
Doesn't this make sense, why PAF is still trying to get it hands on F16s (new and used alike)?
Why in last 15 years or so.. establishment has taken a defensive posture despite very aggressive tone and interference (Balochistan/FATA) in Pakistan by other side?
In this period of history, open wars are not economically and politically feasible. More and more "Proxy wars" are being fought to achieve political and military objectives. Here Pakistan fails miserably and India wins every time, because of good diplomatic and political strategy.
Should we not be asking ourselves, why India occupies Siachin violating Shimla agreement and Pakistan has to leave Kargil in same scenario?
So will it ever be possible to achieve decisive edge over India with current political and diplomatic situation of Pakistan (even if somehow we arrange finances?)
We saw it with French option, we are seeing it for Vipers purchase (hint: lobbies active in USA)
You will see it, if you are on some understanding with Russia.
The best ever happened for Pakistan is, when the deals came as a surprise.. Just out of blue.
You make noise over it, the deal is gone right in the middle.
PAF has a good relation with Italy in various fields. Let them sort it out behind close doors. I believe in PAF with my heart, that they are and will make good choices.
Both PAF and IAF knows, that there is not going to be an open conflict in near future. India is waiting for a golden opportunity like 1971 to arise. That too with solid guarantees from the West to jump ahead. They are smart enough to keep preparing for that. Fortunately they have good economy, political stability, huge market to support their aims.
In case of PAF, there is nothing going their way.
When your sitting PM, Ex President and Ex Ambassador to USA (just to name a few) are 6-columnist.. can things go worse then that?
Sooner the better, establishment has to intervene in economy and diplomacy also. Holy Cow.. the oil is below $30. It is the best time to build Pakistan reserves, pay bad debts and improve the economy.
Lets put our efforts to highlight the economy, then believe me, Selex or even his father will be lining to get a contract..

Looking at the current IAF inventory, even if 36 (2 squadrons) Thunders get equipped with the listed AESA and other goodies from Selex, it will be good for quite a long time. I am talking about "deterrent", just the level to prevent India to attack. This is the only objective to meet right now.

The best thing with Thunder is that, its ours. We can integrate, what ever is available to us. I have no reference but my understanding says that people somewhere are closely looking at IAFs procurement. They will unveil Blk-3 accordingly. There is an other thread running about PAF plans to counter Rafale.. We will see about that in coming years. Mark my word.. IAF has bought not 1 but 2 white elephants. Lets see how they go about with that

 

[araz]

good read...........but there is a problem the jf-17 is supposed to be a cheap sanction free jet. this would hinder that philosophy. the britecloud decoy is depensed from the flare shaft and i think it would be a good idea as its able to be fitted on the similarly sized gripens but i dont see the need for such a specific high tech countermeasure installed on the jf17. the skywalk irst is quiet strange of you to bring up. as china is just as capable irst's install on j11 families and the later j10b/c's. the aesa radars however is quiet differant. i was told they are looking at the vixen 1000-e aesa. the raven is for the gripen. the vixen is an export radar. oh and you forgetting the engines to the rd-93 is not going to cut it , an upgrade is required. please dont say the ws-13 as you know as well as i, know that is not going to happen.
so some critical components being procured from europe is a good idea such as the radar but other are not simply worth the hassel or the price. also because the radars are british and italian you wont have much a problem in regards to indian lobbying as they are not strong in neither countries.

I think the concern regarding Selex and Pak China collaboration is a minor factor. PAF has a history of collaboration with Selex on previous occasions and I think the contacts have been good. Your point about a higher thrust engine is very valid and we do need an upgrade probably in hte form of the RD93MA which is due to enter service in 2018.
I suppose as with all other equipment PAF will try out the equipment and do a cost versus benefit analysis. You also have to consider that the chinese are business men at the end of the day. They will pull their socks up and come up with a compatible system at less price. In many cases it is a sheer tactic to get them to up a gear and come up with a technologically compatible solution as they did with the current radar of JFT.
The major factor to consider is the cost and the implications on the sale price of JFT. You have to remember there are various countries for whom the price of the thunder is its main attraction. They are not too concerned about AESA and IRST as it is not required for their purposes. So what we may have to do is go sell the next 30 planes to foreign govtts as planned and then induct bl.3 in 2018. Integration of IRST onboard maybe a problem due to space constraints. Rest might be a case of integrations as required.

 

[Khafee]

For every person in support of the F-16 there is someone else in support of the JF-17. Unlike the ill-fated K-8 (which didn't see much development from us), there is some energy behind the JF-17, hence why nuanced technical discussions like this are important. If anything, the thinkers need to direct very specific questions about the F-16, e.g. how much is MDE [major defence article] versus "support" and why; how do we have money for expensive F-16s and not tuning up the JF-17; why 8 F-16s and not 32 Selex-equipped JF-17s; etc. The more specific the questions get, the more exposed (for good or bad) an idea becomes.

Take for example this discussion about using Selex to supply JF-17. By collectively contributing, we can all acknowledge that Chinese weapons will be tough, this is a negative we've uncovered. But then, we know Selex would be willing to work with Denel (and vice-versa), and we could build a relationship with that company too, so this is a good discovery. Fleshing out ideas like this is the way forward, and God-willing, it'll begin affecting the decision-makers in some form.

You have to keep something thing in mind: Grifo Radars- PAC was successful in incorporating the missiles, PAC wanted. Secondly, having a radar "talk" yo your missile is not that difficult, especially if the radar manufacturer cooperates with you, as in the past.

Btw Is Quwa a Canadian way of saying " کوا"?

 

[Blue Marlin]

I think the concern regarding Selex and Pak China collaboration is a minor factor. PAF has a history of collaboration with Selex on previous occasions and I think the contacts have been good. Your point about a higher thrust engine is very valid and we do need an upgrade probably in hte form of the RD93MA which is due to enter service in 2018.
I suppose as with all other equipment PAF will try out the equipment and do a cost versus benefit analysis. You also have to consider that the chinese are business men at the end of the day. They will pull their socks up and come up with a compatible system at less price. In many cases it is a sheer tactic to get them to up a gear and come up with a technologically compatible solution as they did with the current radar of JFT.
The major factor to consider is the cost and the implications on the sale price of JFT. You have to remember there are various countries for whom the price of the thunder is its main attraction. They are not too concerned about AESA and IRST as it is not required for their purposes. So what we may have to do is go sell the next 30 planes to foreign govtts as planned and then induct bl.3 in 2018. Integration of IRST onboard maybe a problem due to space constraints. Rest might be a case of integrations as required.

well selex is a good contractor, but remember selex is not all Italian and not all of it is in Italy. Selex makes a large amount of its radars in the UK, at Edinbrough Scotland, and we have say as its a defense product and needs our approval. dont fret the Italians wont need our say, as they can be built abroad, or be sold to Pakistan via the Italian government. so it would be a g2,g2,2 deal from the British to Italy to Pakistan.

as for the rd93ma will come with a reliability issues. as the increased thrust comes from the hot section of the engine and the ma varient is basically making the hot part of the engine hotter providing more thrust. a Russian engine engineer said: "it's like a filament bulb, add current it works, but add more current it will still work but it wont last as long"
i feel they wont go for the irst, but would be handy as the jf-17's role being a short range fighter would mean in a close encounter it can engage such targets. doing something like the tejas mk2 would be a good idea by stretching it 3ft would be a good idea and with some good engines. or re design the internals of it.

as i said and what your saying is that it still needs to be cheap to retain its nicheness of being 1/3 of comparable jets

 

[!eon]

Nice one, for the first time I am visiting a pure tech. thread without Indian trolls.

but here it comes .....

Sorry for going offtopic Sir but you are
Undermining your enemy here which spend 5 time's
Of Its budget on R&D and training and upgrading its technology

For Now i only advice you to do bit more research on Latest Mig-29Upg and M2k
Let me you hint

Latest MiG-29 Upg of IAF is only 4th gen fighter aircraft in South Asia mouted with AESA jammer's Including DRFM

ایک اور بن بولیے باراتی کی بقواس برداشت کیجیے ​

ایک اور بن بولائے باراتی کی بکواس برداشت کیجیئے
جسٹ سم کوریکشن ​