Selex ES radar & other technology on JF-17?

[Khafee]

@Khafee @Quwa @Irfan Baloch ,

Bottomline is that it all comes down to is the strength of the electronics package in whatever form shape or size it is in---the package that is in the aircraft as well as on the missile itself that is hunting the prey.

The aircraft will become secondary---here is how the weapons will be graded---smart---smarter---smartest---hyper smart---hyper hyper smart----super hyper smart.

Today's missiles are in between the range of smart---going towards smarter.

@Khafee ---- there are always simpler solutions to serious tactical problems---as the technology advances---so does the propensity in the humans---advances to counter them.

Again here is what I personally feel---you know these smart bombs that have a camera lens in their nose that the technician see thru the eye---a similar technology would be developed in the BVR missiles to hunt the stealth aircraft at longer ranges--and also wvr to lock on even at shorter ranges.

The thing is that stealth cannot hide from a camera lens---that is what my thinking is.

@Quwa,

Italian aesa radar---electronics package along with the south african missile system gives the buyer a choice of weapons and equipment that they might want.

The total chinese weapons package in itself is extremely deadly as well.

Sir, Stealth can't hide from IRST or Missiles with IR seekers either.

 

[Zarvan]

Even if cost is not a issue for us still I would hesitate to trust Europe in defence matters until and unless they allow us to produce radar systems in Pakistan

 

[NABZ]

Even if cost is not a issue for us still I would hesitate to trust Europe in defence matters until and unless they allow us to produce radar systems in Pakistan

highly unlikely

 

[Thorough Pro]

I don't think cost should be an issue here, if PAF can buy 8 new F16's for a billion (or so) dollars, it can use half of these funds to have a squadron or two of very high end Thunders with customized avionics and ECM package from Selex. and they can further reduce cost by doing some manufacturing/assembly and installation work in Pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, Stealth can't hide from IRST or Missiles with IR seekers either.

Hi,

You are right---I was just saying that like those smart bombs with a camera eye in them---could that be a solution in the future---for missiles---.

IRST has indeed leveled the playing field somewhat.

I think the JF-17 was mean to be a bargain, not simply low cost. Low cost make a fixed rate which means a fixed set of capabilities. JF-17 was not meant simply to be low cost, but a bargain (meaning lower cost vs comparable aircraft). Block 1 was a bargain compared to F-16 block 30s, Block 2 compared well to block 40s, Block 3 should be comparable to Block 60s, Rafale, Gripen NG but at a bargain price. This means it needs a top caliber electronics suite and a plethora of options. Flexibility is key. For now PAF is satified with RD-93, BUT if an export customer wants EJ-200 that should be optioned for them. The ECM and ECCM should be comparable to western fighters. The Radar needs to be able to handle situations where it is pitted against MKI and Rafale, not only cause problems in numbers but also stand a reasonable chance of defeating them. Let us face it. There will be no new F-16, No Typhoon and it is unlikely that there will be Su-35 and definitely not in enough numbers to hold off the IAF for a number of weeks. JF-17 Block 1 and 2 are enough to handle Mig-27, Mig-29, M2K, and Jaguar. But the MKI and Rafale will give it major trouble. Even with 85 F-16s you wont be able to hold back that line. JF-17 needs to elevate the game to the point where the Mig-29 and M2K arent legitimate threats, and while it may not be as good as a MKI (upgraded) or Rafale, its close enough that will scare the crap out of IAF pilots.

Afterall, the F/A-18E/F is not as good as the F-22, but F/A-18G has scored kills on F-22 by jamming the crap out of it. If PAF spends $40-50million per JF-17 Block 3 in this set up it is well worth it. Considering that F-16 block 50/52 is around that price and the JF-17Block 3 in that set up would be vastly superior electronically to it makes me feel that this is the direction. You can still have more low budget options with the block 2 still on tap if you want higher numbers, but no expense spared for the electronics of block 3 should be the motto.

Hi,

That is a good analysis---. Here is my thinking----.

The JF17 in iteself----it is the STRUCTURE that is a bargain---the frame----the body----the engine----the flyable package---that is what is a bargain.

Other than that---if you have the funds---and you can get the fire control radar and electronics package---to your wants and needs---you can make it as capable as the F16V---or if there are no restrictions on funds and procurement---@Khafee can you make it like the BLK60---.

There was a misconcept in marketing this aircraft as a " cheap & inexpensive aircraft "

 

[Tank131]

Europe cannot be looked at as a homogeneous group. Frankly speaking, Italy was offering Grifo radars to Pakistan at the height of the 90's arms embargoes. Pakistan has a long standing working relationship with Selex (formerly FIAR and a subsidiary of Finmeccanica) and had, in the 90s, acquired Grifo 7 radar for the F-7P which was replaced by the Grifo Mk-II (under licensed production) and the F-7PG was fitted with the Grifo MG (also under lisenced assembly). Subsequently for Project ROSE, Mirage III was fitted with the Grifo M3 radar. Following this the Grifo S (or S7) was designed specifically to compete for the then Super 7 (now JF-17) project and was offered when other countries were not ready to offer anything. Even when France pulled the RC-400 under Indian pressure the Grifo S was on offer. No the KLJ-7 performed admirably so it was ultimately selected (also probably was cheaper), but all of this occurred at the height of the Nuclear embargoes so I see little risk in pursuing the Italian radar and electronics package. Additionally, though we may be wary of the UK, it has only ever blocked Nuclear/dual use tech and I doubt would have the need to block (if they have a veto) a Selex electronics sale to Pakistan. Additionally the J-10B/C are already using advanced AESA radars and IRST, so I dont know what benefit they would see from blocking this to Pakistan as it relates to China. Europe is not the US which is actively using F-16s as are many of its anti-Chinese allies in Asia (Taiwan, Singapore, Phillipines, Japan(in the form of F-2)) and so doesnt want the Chinese to know anything about the F-16s capabilities and sensors. Europe has no such issue other than IP which as I said is kinda a moot point with similar sensors and electronics manufactured in China. The 2 things mentioned that really intrigue me are the miysis and brightcloud systems which would be great for PAF JF-17s and a good option to offer for potential sale.

I agree with @MastanKhan that south african weapons should be actively sought, especially a-darter and Marlin. The A-darter will be especially useful for the HOBS which can be married to a SA HMD. This could be then translated to even the F-7PGs which are planned to serve into the 2020's (id imagine at least another 10 years) and the ROSE III Mirages. This would give a degree of BVR capabilities (as the Missile has a 25km range) and the jets can be vectored in by AWACs against intruding airforces and fire off missiles in a shoot and scoot type action. With the A-darter's high degree of manouverability and lock-after-launch capabilities, it would make for a very effective weapon for these aircraft which have some BVR range capability (albeit minimum). They dont need to be close enough to achieve missile lock given the lock after launch but can fire from stand off range and get out. Given the PG's point defense nature it would be an optimal weapon for it to remain relevant against the IAF.

For export, it will make the JF-17 that much more attractive to have options, especially when most of those would be free of strings. Of note, with Rafale being a low-rcs aircraft and the potential of PAK-FA, the inclusion of an IRST like Selex's Skyward-G will keep the JF-17 relevant for a long time to come. Any addition of A-darter will be able to be fully utilized with IRST. Given the size similarity of Gripen and JF-17, I have no doubt that Selex can find a solution for a permanent IRST in the nose just forward the cockpit of the JF-17.

 

[TaimiKhan]

After a very long time i have enjoyed reading 3 pages of a thread.

No trolling, no non sense, pure good & informative discussion.

Mature discussion. Very nice guys, hope it stays that way.

 

[Quwa]

Europe cannot be looked at as a homogeneous group. Frankly speaking, Italy was offering Grifo radars to Pakistan at the height of the 90's arms embargoes. Pakistan has a long standing working relationship with Selex (formerly FIAR and a subsidiary of Finmeccanica) and had, in the 90s, acquired Grifo 7 radar for the F-7P which was replaced by the Grifo Mk-II (under licensed production) and the F-7PG was fitted with the Grifo MG (also under lisenced assembly). Subsequently for Project ROSE, Mirage III was fitted with the Grifo M3 radar. Following this the Grifo S (or S7) was designed specifically to compete for the then Super 7 (now JF-17) project and was offered when other countries were not ready to offer anything. Even when France pulled the RC-400 under Indian pressure the Grifo S was on offer. No the KLJ-7 performed admirably so it was ultimately selected (also probably was cheaper), but all of this occurred at the height of the Nuclear embargoes so I see little risk in pursuing the Italian radar and electronics package. Additionally, though we may be wary of the UK, it has only ever blocked Nuclear/dual use tech and I doubt would have the need to block (if they have a veto) a Selex electronics sale to Pakistan. Additionally the J-10B/C are already using advanced AESA radars and IRST, so I dont know what benefit they would see from blocking this to Pakistan as it relates to China. Europe is not the US which is actively using F-16s as are many of its anti-Chinese allies in Asia (Taiwan, Singapore, Phillipines, Japan(in the form of F-2)) and so doesnt want the Chinese to know anything about the F-16s capabilities and sensors. Europe has no such issue other than IP which as I said is kinda a moot point with similar sensors and electronics manufactured in China. The 2 things mentioned that really intrigue me are the miysis and brightcloud systems which would be great for PAF JF-17s and a good option to offer for potential sale.

I agree with @MastanKhan that south african weapons should be actively sought, especially a-darter and Marlin. The A-darter will be especially useful for the HOBS which can be married to a SA HMD. This could be then translated to even the F-7PGs which are planned to serve into the 2020's (id imagine at least another 10 years) and the ROSE III Mirages. This would give a degree of BVR capabilities (as the Missile has a 25km range) and the jets can be vectored in by AWACs against intruding airforces and fire off missiles in a shoot and scoot type action. With the A-darter's high degree of manouverability and lock-after-launch capabilities, it would make for a very effective weapon for these aircraft which have some BVR range capability (albeit minimum). They dont need to be close enough to achieve missile lock given the lock after launch but can fire from stand off range and get out. Given the PG's point defense nature it would be an optimal weapon for it to remain relevant against the IAF.

For export, it will make the JF-17 that much more attractive to have options, especially when most of those would be free of strings. Of note, with Rafale being a low-rcs aircraft and the potential of PAK-FA, the inclusion of an IRST like Selex's Skyward-G will keep the JF-17 relevant for a long time to come. Any addition of A-darter will be able to be fully utilized with IRST. Given the size similarity of Gripen and JF-17, I have no doubt that Selex can find a solution for a permanent IRST in the nose just forward the cockpit of the JF-17.

Fully agreed! The current set of fighters in production today (e.g. Gripen E/F, Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet, Su-35, etc) will be the mainstay of practically every major air force outside of North America for decades to come. With the exception of relatively few 5th gen. fighters, a JF-17 with a top-tier suite of Anglo-Italian electronics and South African munitions is going to be a credible stand against what will be thrown at it, especially in South Asia and the regions of most other developing countries. And with IRST and a HOBS AAM, even 'stealth' isn't an insurmountable issue.

The PAF needs to alter its paradigm away from the "edge" concept of having a hi/lo mix where it has a small number of 'high-end' fighters and a large number of minimally capable fighters. It needs to shift to ensuring each of its platforms are inherently credible in addressing the full-spectrum of threats and challenges coming their way. In other words, the JF-17 platform needs to be equipped such that it can survive and potentially win an engagement against a top-end fighter. For this reason I think approaching Selex ES to develop a tailor made solution (whether it means re-using existing products or making new ones) for JF-17 is a sound idea.

From a commercial standpoint, a whole host of developing world air forces will be interested in JF-17 Block-III (IV/V) if it has the same kind of subsystems and weapons as the Gripen E/F. Factor in the limited deterrence value of an export-oriented ALCM and the 'wow' aspect of an mmW-tipped Mokopa (making it akin to Brimstone), and we have a really compelling offer.

As for cost. I would be a little miffed if the PAF would bring that up when it is apparently willing to talk to the U.S for 8 new F-16s that will assuredly cost north of $80mn a unit. It's ironic because the specific contracts awarded to LM, Boeing, Northrop, etc, themselves never directly reflect the end total seen on DSCA proposals (which includes - ambiguously - "spare parts, maintenance, training and logistics.")

Selex ES (nor the recession-prone British and Italian governments) are going to turn away the PAF if it can guarantee $1bn in contracts over 3-5 years. Factor in possible exports to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and others (who will notice such a well-equipped JF-17), and that means even more sales for Selex ES.

 

[MastanKhan]

Fully agreed! The current set of fighters in production today (e.g. Gripen E/F, Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet, Su-35, etc) will be the mainstay of practically every major air force outside of North America for decades to come. With the exception of relatively few 5th gen. fighters, a JF-17 with a top-tier suite of Anglo-Italian electronics and South African munitions is going to be a credible stand against what will be thrown at it, especially in South Asia and the regions of most other developing countries. And with IRST and a HOBS AAM, even 'stealth' isn't an insurmountable issue.

The PAF needs to alter its paradigm away from the "edge" concept of having a hi/lo mix where it has a small number of 'high-end' fighters and a large number of minimally capable fighters. It needs to shift to ensuring each of its platforms are inherently credible in addressing the full-spectrum of threats and challenges coming their way. In other words, the JF-17 platform needs to be equipped such that it can survive and potentially win an engagement against a top-end fighter. For this reason I think approaching Selex ES to develop a tailor made solution (whether it means re-using existing products or making new ones) for JF-17 is a sound idea.

From a commercial standpoint, a whole host of developing world air forces will be interested in JF-17 Block-III (IV/V) if it has the same kind of subsystems and weapons as the Gripen E/F. Factor in the limited deterrence value of an export-oriented ALCM and the 'wow' aspect of an mmW-tipped Mokopa (making it akin to Brimstone), and we have a really compelling offer.

As for cost. I would be a little miffed if the PAF would bring that up when it is apparently willing to talk to the U.S for 8 new F-16s that will assuredly cost north of $80mn a unit. It's ironic because the specific contracts awarded to LM, Boeing, Northrop, etc, themselves never directly reflect the end total seen on DSCA proposals (which includes - ambiguously - "spare parts, maintenance, training and logistics.")

Selex ES (nor the recession-prone British and Italian governments) are going to turn away the PAF if it can guarantee $1bn in contracts over 3-5 years. Factor in possible exports to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and others (who will notice such a well-equipped JF-17), and that means even more sales for Selex ES.

Hi,

At this stage---the paf needs to prove to the nation that the JF 17 is the right aircraft for the country---and if it goes ahead and spends 1.5 billion dollars on the 8 F16 package---then there is something truly wrong with the JF17.

I can guarantee you this----if the north korean anti aircraft gun is pointed at the top air marshalls of the air force---they will find fire control radar and electronics and weapons package for the JF 17 to come close to the blk 60 ----.

But the problem is that there is nobody to put their feet to the fire----. The defence minister knows nothing---the prime minister knows nothing---the military generals are clueless---and when the Insane run the Asylum---we know the result is paf.

 

[Tank131]

The other major benefit with approaching traditional suppliers like Selex and Denel (Remember, PAF uses weaponry developed by Denel in H-2 and H-4) and then bringing contracts to them from other countries via JF-17 sales, is that Pakistan will be in a better position to request ToT of the various weapons and electronic subsystems. Remember that Pakistan's Grifo 7, Mk II, and M3 radars were assembled at Kamra under ToT. Such ToT will be helpful for the internal R&D as PAC will be able to learn a great deal from the advanced tech used in these subsystem and hopefully further develop it. With Denel it will lead hopefully to a new foray into the next generation of Pakistan A2G and hopefully in future, A2A weapons.

Who knows, with Denel's and even Mectron (Brazil) help, a new WVR/BVR IR-guided lock-after-launch missile (a combo of MICA-IR (which is WVR/BVR Capable) and A-darter) could be developed. That would be a game changer for an AESA/IRST equipped aircraft that is heavily data-linked to other similarly equipped fighters and AWACS. Such an aircraft could, if outfitted with advanced jamming pods and good datalinks, enable fighters to be vectored into engagements with their sensors off and in full jamming mode under heavy electronic warefare support of the AWAC and their own jammers and fire off inertailly navigated missiles with lock-after-launch capabilities and high degree of manouverability, all without giving away its position with an active radar. Such a fighter would be a threat even to advanced stealth fighters. But this requires an investment of $$$. This involves investing in the electronics and forging cooperative agreements with your suppliers. The JF-17 program currently stands on that precipice and could, with the right leadership achieve that while staying cost effective. Countries like Egypt, Morocco and Nigeria would love to have such capabilities and really, there is no fighter the IAF could field that would not face a very significant threat by such a weapon system.

 

[GriffinsRule]

"Stealth" doesnt need to hide from IRST ... esp when IRST wouldnt know where to look, very very precisely. Planes with IRST get their target information from another plane with a bigger radar and are able to use that information to passively acquire the target.

Moving back to the topic at hand, while all these upgrades are really nice, my question would be, does a single RD-93 even have enough juice to handle all the additional power requirements of these upgrades.

 

[Shabi1]

Wouldnt a western radar system have integration issues with Chinese origin weapon systems. Would prefer weapons and radar be from same origin. Wouldnt want to release Chinese missile performance parameters to a western radar vendor.

 

[Tank131]

"Stealth" doesnt need to hide from IRST ... esp when IRST wouldnt know where to look, very very precisely. Planes with IRST get their target information from another plane with a bigger radar and are able to use that information to passively acquire the target.

You mean another aircraft like an AWAC as I mentioned above?

Wouldnt a western radar system have integration issues with Chinese origin weapon systems. Would prefer weapons and radar be from same origin. Wouldnt want to release Chinese missile performance parameters to a western radar vendor.

I think it would depend on the Radar vendor and and the Chinese to provide the appropriate integration codes. If the vendors dont want to supply said codes to each other, they can be integrated at PAC provided the appropriate codes are given the to Pakistan (which I doubt would be a problem), after all PAF performed production of the Grifo MG radar from FIAR . Even IAF M2K were said to have been equipped with Russian missiles. It is doable but with the proper diplomatic channels. That is also why the Denel/Mectron route is a good option to have.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Fully agreed! The current set of fighters in production today (e.g. Gripen E/F, Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet, Su-35, etc) will be the mainstay of practically every major air force outside of North America for decades to come. With the exception of relatively few 5th gen. fighters, a JF-17 with a top-tier suite of Anglo-Italian electronics and South African munitions is going to be a credible stand against what will be thrown at it, especially in South Asia and the regions of most other developing countries. And with IRST and a HOBS AAM, even 'stealth' isn't an insurmountable issue.

The PAF needs to alter its paradigm away from the "edge" concept of having a hi/lo mix where it has a small number of 'high-end' fighters and a large number of minimally capable fighters. It needs to shift to ensuring each of its platforms are inherently credible in addressing the full-spectrum of threats and challenges coming their way. In other words, the JF-17 platform needs to be equipped such that it can survive and potentially win an engagement against a top-end fighter. For this reason I think approaching Selex ES to develop a tailor made solution (whether it means re-using existing products or making new ones) for JF-17 is a sound idea.

From a commercial standpoint, a whole host of developing world air forces will be interested in JF-17 Block-III (IV/V) if it has the same kind of subsystems and weapons as the Gripen E/F. Factor in the limited deterrence value of an export-oriented ALCM and the 'wow' aspect of an mmW-tipped Mokopa (making it akin to Brimstone), and we have a really compelling offer.

As for cost. I would be a little miffed if the PAF would bring that up when it is apparently willing to talk to the U.S for 8 new F-16s that will assuredly cost north of $80mn a unit. It's ironic because the specific contracts awarded to LM, Boeing, Northrop, etc, themselves never directly reflect the end total seen on DSCA proposals (which includes - ambiguously - "spare parts, maintenance, training and logistics.")

Selex ES (nor the recession-prone British and Italian governments) are going to turn away the PAF if it can guarantee $1bn in contracts over 3-5 years. Factor in possible exports to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and others (who will notice such a well-equipped JF-17), and that means even more sales for Selex ES.

There is a part due to be played by the private sector.

Private enterprise can easily partner with others abroad and come up with newer products at am amazing pace;
most of all private sector will always find a way to circumvent any sanctions.

That said there was a case of certain radar which PAF was interested in, originally from Check republic I believe ?
It could track stealth aircraft. That company was stopped by and purchased by uncle sam.
@Oscar can you please correct my memory.

Point being; there is a huge human and technological pool of resources in former Soviet states, Eastern europe and like we discussed last time South Africa.

Private sector will be encouraged to perform if the air force too changes it's attitude; once that happens we can see so much more than just Selex.

 

[cerberus]

JF-17 Block 1 and 2 are enough to handle Mig-27, Mig-29, M2K, and Jaguar

Sorry for going offtopic Sir but you are
Undermining your enemy here which spend 5 time's
Of Its budget on R&D and training and upgrading its technology

For Now i only advice you to do bit more research on Latest Mig-29Upg and M2k
Let me you hint

Latest MiG-29 Upg of IAF is only 4th gen fighter aircraft in South Asia mouted with AESA jammer's Including DRFM