Hi,
At this stage---the paf needs to prove to the nation that the JF 17 is the right aircraft for the country---and if it goes ahead and spends 1.5 billion dollars on the 8 F16 package---then there is something truly wrong with the JF17.
I can guarantee you this----if the north korean anti aircraft gun is pointed at the top air marshalls of the air force---they will find fire control radar and electronics and weapons package for the JF 17 to come close to the blk 60 ----.
But the problem is that there is nobody to put their feet to the fire----. The defence minister knows nothing---the prime minister knows nothing---the military generals are clueless---and when the Insane run the Asylum---we know the result is paf.
For every person in support of the F-16 there is someone else in support of the JF-17. Unlike the ill-fated K-8 (which didn't see much development from us), there is some energy behind the JF-17, hence why nuanced technical discussions like this are important. If anything, the thinkers need to direct very specific questions about the F-16, e.g. how much is MDE [major defence article] versus "support" and why; how do we have money for expensive F-16s and not tuning up the JF-17; why 8 F-16s and not 32 Selex-equipped JF-17s; etc. The more specific the questions get, the more exposed (for good or bad) an idea becomes.
Take for example this discussion about using Selex to supply JF-17. By collectively contributing, we can all acknowledge that Chinese weapons will be tough, this is a negative we've uncovered. But then, we know Selex would be willing to work with Denel (and vice-versa), and we could build a relationship with that company too, so this is a good discovery. Fleshing out ideas like this is the way forward, and God-willing, it'll begin affecting the decision-makers in some form.
Wouldnt a western radar system have integration issues with Chinese origin weapon systems. Would prefer weapons and radar be from same origin. Wouldnt want to release Chinese missile performance parameters to a western radar vendor.
This is a key point, it would. An ideal scenario would be PAC or a private Pakistani firm acting as an intermediary between both camps, in order to integrate onto JF-17. That or Pakistan begins investing in alternative programs (e.g. Denel Dynamics). Either way, it is a difficult road, but a rewarding one since it will result in some kind of capacity building for us, which in turn means independence.
There is a part due to be played by the private sector.
Private enterprise can easily partner with others abroad and come up with newer products at am amazing pace;
most of all private sector will always find a way to circumvent any sanctions.
That said there was a case of certain radar which PAF was interested in, originally from Check republic I believe ?
It could track stealth aircraft. That company was stopped by and purchased by uncle sam.
@Oscar can you please correct my memory.
Point being; there is a huge human and technological pool of resources in former Soviet states, Eastern europe and like we discussed last time South Africa.
Private sector will be encouraged to perform if the air force too changes it's attitude; once that happens we can see so much more than just Selex.
Absolutely agreed. Pakistan could try to tie a vendor agreement with Selex ES and Denel Dynamics to an offset agreement whereby the two could set up subsidiaries within Pakistan, or invest (with transparency and stringent checks) in Pakistani firms. Another good thing about the private sector is that it could set up a barrier (being beholden to private shareholders or an external investor, hence obeying stringent IP protocol) to protect Western and South African IP from Chinese access.
great thread....for the thinkers...
AESA is less likely to be from your Europe. With AESA, JFT would mostly likely require a built in EW suite. This combination is not possible from Selex UK(also the manufacturer of the radar, in Edinburgh) , as the EW portion is on Eurofighter. Whomever will be selected, will be selected as an integrated suite. Power issues, and space issues are technical hurdles, but replacing the KLJ7 will give enough space for a new ECS/Chiller for the LRUs, and an antenna compact enough for the JFT nose will bring it in the AESA club. Drawn power will be around the same as current.
IRST is definitely a big and viable change for the JF17 CONOPS. The key issue is space. If you look at Selex options, none fit. The Chinese will remain as compromise solutions, and not the direction forward (PAF now knows the MTBF and performance of Chinese suites). An IRST for JFT would have to be a distributed architecture, custom designed, and optimised for JF17 BVR combat. Whether it will be only a detection track system, or a recognition system will depend on how much space can be made available for the processing. However, IRST still remains viable and effective tool of air to air combat even with the implementation of partial DIR paradigm in the IR regime.
The Chinese IRST will not have the performance required to fully exploit the working envelope of a SD-10 in BVR engagement, and the claims made by the catalog may not be believed by the Pak AF who know the Chinese and their tactics well by now.
When you ask companies like Selex for a major system change, or similar system as deployed in Gripen or EF, the price goes through the roof. This is a known and present challenge that Pak AF would have to think about, and deal with. Further, most of these initiatives shall be driven by parent's country export control regime, and if they now see JFT as a Pakistani fighter or not.
Needless to say, JF 17 is coming along as an impressive program, that has surprised most internationally, and I feel, will continue to hold many surprises for the enthusiast and analyst community in the future.
Yes I don't think we can make full use of Selex ES' capacity within the current Block-II frame, it would have to be Block-III, assuming the airframe has been lightened and enlarged, and up-rated RD-93 variant secured. I would say that the goodies don't need to come at once in Block-III, it could be spread out to Block-IV and Block-V, leaving more time for airframe improvements.
That said, while cost is an issue, it is time we push the idea of valuing cost on relative terms, not comparative. So while a tailored Selex kit for JF-17 will cost more in comparative terms than Block-II or a Chinese solution, what about the relative gains? If the relative gains are substantial and give us a credible means of defence against Su-30MKI and Rafale, then perhaps it would be a good idea to take that route. As I mentioned before, I am miffed that we could agree to ask for 8 F-16s, which will cost north of $80mn a unit, and then balk at the cost of improving our locally sourced mainstay fighter.
Well, given the numbers of JF-17s which will be produced (some 200+ for PAF alone), a customised solution is a lucrative deal for any company; Western or eastern. In due course of time JF-17 production numbers will exceed that of Gripen NG, especially if export orders pour in. Why a second tier defence company forego such an opportunity? Case in point is British Martin Baker. No matter what the sanctions, the opportunity to sell 200-300 ejection seats was too good to be missed. Hence I believe, a customized solution for avionics package with in-house assembly / manufacturing is a real possibility. Costs will surely go up. May be in the tune of $45-50 million but so would the biting strength. A sweet spot for me is keeping the cost at two thirds of Gripen. If we can manage that, JFT will still remain an economical defence solution with an impressive effectiveness / cost ratio.
Agreed. If I could add, it'd be a good idea to ask that a portion of our money go back into some kind of offset, ideally investment in our private defence sector. If need be, a private firm could be set up to take on the integration work within Pakistan.
Will acquiring a western radar mean we will have to abandon Chinese AAMs for JF-17. As per my understanding traditionally weapons and radar are sourced from similar origin. One of the JF-17s greatest plus points has been its capability to field China's latest missiles. China has even more advanced AAMs in R&D and they should be available soon.
If that is the case Pakistan should stick to Chinese and offer western options only as per client request.
There is a third way, and that would be to get a third party, e.g. PAC or a private Pakistani firm, to do the integration. Yes, both outside parties (West and China) may have secrecy issues, but neither side is going to resolve it by not trusting PAC. Either way PAC has the most to lose, so it'd be best to keep the line of communication and cooperation open, so as to increase PAC (and PAF's) incentive to protect trade secrets.
