Saudi Arabia Has Started An Arms Race

[AmirPatriot]

Not doubting iran's capabilities but no u cant, not quickly anyhow.

Jf 17 block 3 will be a block 3 4.5 gen jet with "aesa" , "irst".One cant even make the two things mentioned above before research and development of a decade and atleast another 5 years for finalizing, tweeking it out before productions prototypes are made, let alone an entire jet.

Im just stating cold hard facts here man, tag any aviation expert here and he will tell u the same.

Pakistan started the programe in early 90's and an MOU was signed in 95, it took us atleast 17 yrs for the prgramme to take shape and give fruits and we had the unrestricted help of the chinese aviation industry in it.

U obviously dont know man how difficult it is to create a 4-4.5 gen jet, india started their tejas programme in the 80's and they still havent inducted thier jet nor do they have a final protoype decided.

We also had access to some techs of world powers due to our intense collaboration with the Us in afghan jihad etc against soviets. We learned a lot from the f 16's we have had for a long time and our experience with overhauling mirages.

These things take time and if iran is to get into the aviation field right now it would take 15 yrs for the programme to give fruit and even that timeline is dependant upon outside help which as things stand right now, i see no country that would be willing to help u in the aviation field atleast. This is why i always say iran must abandon its plans in the ME, start to build relations with other countries including western ones. Get ur country of the radar, the brave die young and foolish and i dont want anything to happen to iran. First build power and than u can do whatever u want but do go in there half cocked, not the smart way man.

Missles and Sams are overrated, look what happened to nations like libya and iraq who relied too heavily on them and didnt have a working serious AF.

Concerning the jf 17 propgramme i dont think pak-china would be willing to do a TOT deal with u, not for block 3 in any case as it incorporates 5th gen techs in it like the radar which is also in use with j 31 among other things, the most u can get is an assembly line.

Iran is weak economically so u cant afford a large number of even su 30's, the best u can do right now is get 30-40 su 30's or j 16's and 100-150 jf 17's provided pak-china sells it to u because its a big if as saudis-Us will try their best to even sabootage that deal and as u knw pakistan has longer standing ties with the saudis(i dont like it) but its how it is.

The saudis have been seriously looking at the jf 17's for a while now and many cricles have reported that they are waiting for block 3 and jf 17b to be inducted to order a large number, so if they place a large order than they will push us not to sell any to u. @Windjammer @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Only Pakistan and China hold selling and all other rights on it, no one else.

In house prgramme's will take u atleast 15 to 20 yrs, are u willing to wait that long without a working AF? specially as things are heating up right now.

Im just speculationg here, its not confirmed that pak-china will sell jf 17 to u as saudis are looking at the jet and if they place an order first they will push us not to sell to u.

If we can please keep the political talk to a minimum. I've heard numerous Pakistanis say Iran should repair ties with USA or "brother" KSA just like that... which is just about as realistic as Pakistan repairing ties with India. Lets just keep all talk of possible future Iranian procurement in current political climate, with exception that sanctions will end in 3 years and 5 months when Iran can pursue foreign aircraft if it needs to.

I think you underestimate the steps Iran has taken to advance its aerospace technology, we've had numerous projects that helped us gain experience like the Azarakhsh and Saeqeh programs which copied and improved on the F-5 design. Saeqeh is now evolving into an advanced trainer rather than a fighter but the experience of making a supersonic aircraft is still there. Iran has spent decades keeping its airforce flying, quite a feat when you consider we still have F-14s flying 40 years after, most spare parts now domestically made. Iran already has AESA radar tech, the Bavar-373 fire control radars are AESAs. Iran has experience with air to air missiles and air launched munitions, we've made copies and improved copies of the AIM-9 and the active radar homing AIM-54 respectively. We have smart bombs and air launched cruise missiles.

We have established a unified company for producing jet engines. Actually we had been working on them before but this company organised all work into one large state firm.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iran...-manufacturing-company-is-established.371980/

These don't mean that Iran can produce a 4.5th gen jet right now, but I don't think it would take as long as the JF-17 because Iran already has certain experience in this.

As for cost effectiveness, I'd love to know how 40 Su-30SMs and 150 JF-17 Block 3 is more affordable than 80-100 Su-30SMs. Because I've seen cost for both of them, with Su-30SM at around $50 million and JF-17 Block 3 at around $30 million, and it simply doesn't work out in the favour of the numbers you suggested.

On top of all this I don't think the JF-17 is suitable for Iran's needs, it may be suitable for Pakistan's specific needs but not Iran. They do, after all, plan to have 374 highly advanced high tier jets. To defend against any country you need to be both capable of defending your territory and taking the fight to them to discourage them from further warmongering. I'm not sure the JF-17 can cut it compared to the Su-30, the JF-17 by being a much smaller aircraft it has a smaller radar and short combat radius, not entirely suited for the long coastline it has to patrol on the Persian Gulf and the targets it may have to strike in the PG or in KSA territory. The Su-30's long range is much more suited for Iran in this case.

I'm focusing a lot on BVR and range here because I know the impact IRIAF F-14s had on the Saddam's air force, they could patrol huge areas of airspace from their central base in Isfahan, and with their long range radars and missiles were able to ward off Iraqi attacks from standoff range.

Personally I think Iran's plan is to acquire Su-30s as a stop gap while they are working on domestic projects, it has been clearly outlined in announcements that Iran is working on indigenous fighter aircraft and the self sufficiency drive in Iran is very very strong.

Missles and Sams are overrated, look what happened to nations like libya and iraq who relied too heavily on them and didnt have a working serious AF.

Iraq and Libya had Scuds as their missiles and at best some SAM designs from the 1960s and 70s. No wonder they lost against cutting edge American wild weasels.

Iran's missiles today have precise Manoeuvring Reentry Vehicles (MaRV) that can evade ABM systems and our air defence has S-300 and Bavar-373 equipped with AESA radars! There is a world of difference here, I'm by no means saying Iran should only rely on missiles and SAM but they are more potent than you think.

 

[eagle2007]

ALCON,

There's something I've wanted to put out there about MaRVs that may be causing misunderstandings.

MaRVs don't knowingly "dodge" ABM interceptors, it's just that in the midst of performing it's basic/necessary maneuvers to stay on course to the target, it's trajectory is not as predictable as a "dumb" missile like the R-17/Scuds.

 

[klaus959]

If we can please keep the political talk to a minimum. I've heard numerous Pakistanis say Iran should repair ties with USA or "brother" KSA just like that... which is just about as realistic as Pakistan repairing ties with India. Lets just keep all talk of possible future Iranian procurement in current political climate, with exception that sanctions will end in 3 years and 5 months when Iran can pursue foreign aircraft if it needs to.

I think you underestimate the steps Iran has taken to advance its aerospace technology, we've had numerous projects that helped us gain experience like the Azarakhsh and Saeqeh programs which copied and improved on the F-5 design. Saeqeh is now evolving into an advanced trainer rather than a fighter but the experience of making a supersonic aircraft is still there. Iran has spent decades keeping its airforce flying, quite a feat when you consider we still have F-14s flying 40 years after, most spare parts now domestically made. Iran already has AESA radar tech, the Bavar-373 fire control radars are AESAs. Iran has experience with air to air missiles and air launched munitions, we've made copies and improved copies of the AIM-9 and the active radar homing AIM-54 respectively. We have smart bombs and air launched cruise missiles.

We have established a unified company for producing jet engines. Actually we had been working on them before but this company organised all work into one large state firm.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iran...-manufacturing-company-is-established.371980/

These don't mean that Iran can produce a 4.5th gen jet right now, but I don't think it would take as long as the JF-17 because Iran already has certain experience in this.

As for cost effectiveness, I'd love to know how 40 Su-30SMs and 150 JF-17 Block 3 is more affordable than 80-100 Su-30SMs. Because I've seen cost for both of them, with Su-30SM at around $50 million and JF-17 Block 3 at around $30 million, and it simply doesn't work out in the favour of the numbers you suggested.

On top of all this I don't think the JF-17 is suitable for Iran's needs, it may be suitable for Pakistan's specific needs but not Iran. They do, after all, plan to have 374 highly advanced high tier jets. To defend against any country you need to be both capable of defending your territory and taking the fight to them to discourage them from further warmongering. I'm not sure the JF-17 can cut it compared to the Su-30, the JF-17 by being a much smaller aircraft it has a smaller radar and short combat radius, not entirely suited for the long coastline it has to patrol on the Persian Gulf and the targets it may have to strike in the PG or in KSA territory. The Su-30's long range is much more suited for Iran in this case.

I'm focusing a lot on BVR and range here because I know the impact IRIAF F-14s had on the Saddam's air force, they could patrol huge areas of airspace from their central base in Isfahan, and with their long range radars and missiles were able to ward off Iraqi attacks from standoff range.

Personally I think Iran's plan is to acquire Su-30s as a stop gap while they are working on domestic projects, it has been clearly outlined in announcements that Iran is working on indigenous fighter aircraft and the self sufficiency drive in Iran is very very strong.



Iraq and Libya had Scuds as their missiles and at best some SAM designs from the 1960s and 70s. No wonder they lost against cutting edge American wild weasels.

Iran's missiles today have precise Manoeuvring Reentry Vehicles (MaRV) that can evade ABM systems and our air defence has S-300 and Bavar-373 equipped with AESA radars! There is a world of difference here, I'm by no means saying Iran should only rely on missiles and SAM but they are more potent than you think.

Scud missiles doesn't carry Reentry vehicles or mirv's just warheads who can be set to free fall

 

[AmirPatriot]

Scud missiles doesn't carry Reentry vehicles or mirv's just warheads who can be set to free fall

Scuds have the missile fuselage still attached to the warhead. More advanced missiles have the warhead separate from the missile body upon reentry, and the warhead with the associated heat shield and guidance is called a reentry vehicle.

But Iran doesn't use scuds.

 

[klaus959]

Scuds have the missile fuselage still attached to the warhead. More advanced missiles have the warhead separate from the missile body upon reentry, and the warhead with the associated heat shield and guidance is called a reentry vehicle.

But Iran doesn't use scuds.

The missile hat iran uses are based on scud missile with seperate stages

 

[AmirPatriot]

The missile hat iran uses are based on scud missile with seperate stages

Some of Iran's ballistic missiles are based on scuds, but the most recent ones are not.

 

[klaus959]

Some of Iran's ballistic missiles are based on scuds, but the most recent ones are not.

Which are they use then ???

 

[klaus959]

Some of Iran's ballistic missiles are based on scuds, but the most recent ones are not.

I am pretty sure that Zelzal is a scud missile only more modified

 

[Zibago]

No direct war will happen only proxy war will intensify @EgyptianAmerican

 

[AmirPatriot]

Which are they use then ???

Fateh-110, Fateh-313, Zolfaqar, Sejjil...

And also, Iran developed a Manoeuvrable Re-entry Vehicle called the Emad that can be retrofitted to all Iranian MRBMs, including the Shahab-3s which are based on the Scud design. This makes the Shahab-3s upgraded Emad MaRV much more difficult to intercept in the terminal stage even when mounted onto a Shahab-3 because the terminal stage of the flight is completely different. There is no Shahab-3 in the terminal stage, since the Emad separates from the missile.

I am pretty sure that Zelzal is a scud missile only more modified

Zelzal is an artillery rocket and it doesn't even use liquid fuel.

 

[Cthulhu]

Guys look what i've found:

This guy goes on and explains on how Israel is afraid of sopa powa Saudi Arabia, and we are not their commen enemy cause we are not Israel's enemy, we are secretly their ally, and Saudi Arabia is their real enemy, cause Saudi Arabia was backing Saddam Hussein during Iran-Iraq war and Israel was backing us, He even mentions that there are Saudi and Gulfi Martyrs killed by the hands of Israelis in Syria. And when it comes to the comment section, this is the best comment that i've found with a huge amount of likes:
45 الف يهودي في اصفهان الايرانيه
800 معبد يهودي في اصفهان .؟
كنايس مسيحيه في طهران
السعوديه لا يوجد فيها يهود
ولا مسيحيين ولا معابد يهوديه ولا يوجد كنايس مسيحين
فرق بين الدوله الاسلاميه والدوله التي تدعي الاسلام وهي عدوه للاسلام
ايران يوجد فيها مراقص وبيع الخمور واباحيه .
السعوديه لا يوجد فيها لا مراقص ولا بيع خمور .
السعوديه هي الدوله الاسلاميه المحافضه والمتمسكه بتعاليم الدين الاسلامي الحنيف
Translation:
There are 45 thousand Jews and 800 Jewish temples in Isfahan and Christian churches in Tehran.
Saudi Arabia has no Jews or Christians and no Jewish temples or Christian churches.
This is the difference between a Islamic state, And a state that claims to be Islamic and is the enemy of Islam.
There are night clubs and liquor stores and p0rnography in Iran but Saudi Arabia does not have any night clubs or liquor stores.
Saudi Arabia a conservative Islamic state and obligated to the teachings of Islam.


This is just plain stupid, We got involved into a fight that was not ours to begin with, And thanks to our support for those jackass Palestinians we have a huge amount of U.S sanctions on our back and we turned the U.S and Israel into our enemies. Now Israel and GCC countries are ganging up against us, And still these idiots think we are not an enemy of Israel, We and Israelis are faking it. And the funniest part is that they think we have night clubs and liquor stores in here and since we have Jews and Christians, we are not true Muslims, the exact same thing that ISIS has threatened us for.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/isis-threatens-iran-for-tolerating-jews.486061/

 

[bdslph]

Saudi arab has started a arms race its true but Iran has problem they cannot buy as the UN resolution is there and more will be adopted against them

 

[Gothic]

I voted no , cause a war between Iran and Saudi arabia would be a laughing riot to all its western audience , something which clearly both iran and Saudi arabia , the two muslim contenders want to avoid

 

[OldTwilight]

Ballistic missiles are incomplete without nuclear warhead ... we should have nukes ...

 

[Gothic]

where do you want to nuke in Saudi arabia their eastern provinces where their shia's live ? or do you have something else in mind , I think you want to create dazzling effects by nuking the sand heat . lol