Russian Expert: Liaoning-Test Platform, Vikramaditya-Fully operable combat capable

[UKBengali]

J15 cannot take off from the Lioning with full load because of STOBAR configuration, J15 are heavy fighters But MIG are designed mainly for dog fights and are lighter. when two STOBAR config carriers meet it is the MIGs that will have advantage to J15's.

Lioning is a test platform, the interesting point the expert said is that in rough seas Lioning is not yet tested.

The same would apply to the Mig-29.

Let people who think a 45,000 tonne carrier will be more capable than a near 70,000 tonne carrier keep believing this.

 

[Mitro]

expert may be in IN payroll and wants to create feel good effect for general public by these BS article.
See the freaking cost different and what we learn from that nothing on other hand China have good experience in making all the system locally including electronics,radar,sensor and weapon.
and they will be popping up carrier like ice cream in near future .

 

[illusion8]

expert may be in IN payroll and wants to create feel good effect for general public by these BS article.
See the freaking cost different and what we learn from that nothing on other hand China have good experience in making all the system locally including electronics,radar,sensor and weapon.
and they will be popping up carrier like ice cream in near future .

And you will be running back to Pakistan with your family when that happens...right?

Chinese are paying more dollars to Russia than India is atm for weapons, ships, sub, planes, missiles and designs so I don't see why Russians would bad mouth the Chinese products if it's not the truth. I don't think copy paste systems go very far.

 

[sancho]

The same would apply to the Mig-29.

Let people who think a 45,000 tonne carrier will be more capable than a near 70,000 tonne carrier keep believing this.

The size of the carrier is not the advantage, although it increases the number of aircrafts,

J15 cannot take off from the Lioning with full load because of STOBAR configuration, J15 are heavy fighters But MIG are designed mainly for dog fights and are lighter. when two STOBAR config carriers meet it is the MIGs that will have advantage to J15's

The Mig and the J15 will have to take off with maximum weaponload, but minimum fuel and will be refuelled by other fighters in air again. That's the downside of the STOBAR config, but is the same for any fighter used on such carriers.
With the higher range and the better weapon variety, the J15 is clearly the better carrier fighter, not to mention the advantages it has with longer radar detection, especially if the operational varients will have AESA radars, which still is a possibility. It's basically the same advantages an MKI would have over the Mig 29UPGs (minus TVC).
That's exactly why I say, that Viki with this airwing is not a game changer at all, IN simply underestimated the Chinese capabilities to re-build the carrier and the Su 33 and compromised with far too less capability for their own carrier.

 

[bloo]

The same would apply to the Mig-29.

Let people who think a 45,000 tonne carrier will be more capable than a near 70,000 tonne carrier keep believing this.

Yeah and those people are the Russians and I'm sure you know more than them.
Of course their comment becomes defunct when it is not corresponding to your side of the dialogue and it automatically becomes legit when they critique something Indian.
Enjoy your delusions.

Liaoning is hardly half of the Varyag, and can operate only under perfect visibility and calm seas.

 

[sancho]

so I don't see why Russians would bad mouth the Chinese products if it's not the truth. I don't think copy paste systems go very far.

Because they didn't bought the carrier and the Su 33s from Russia, but from Ukraine, which the Russians didn't liked at all. They even didn't liked us upgrading the AN 32s in the Ukraine, but that's their political problem, ours is, that IN made silly procurement decisions and wasted a lot of time and money.

 

[illusion8]

Because they didn't bought the carrier and the Su 33s from Russia, but from Ukraine, which the Russians didn't liked at all. They even didn't liked us upgrading the AN 32s in the Ukraine, but that's their political problem, ours is, that IN made silly procurement decisions and wasted a lot of time and money.

But the kind of cooperation the Chinese and the Russians are running I don't see even the slightest reason why they would downgrade Chinese expertise. and to be honest the Russians are known to be forthright and not indulge in silly games of one upmanship till now like for e.g. the Chinese - the Russians are known to say as it is, besides the Lioling is not much of a carrier and the J15 is hardly comparable to M29k.

 

[livingdead]

nothing unexpected, what do you expect a seller to tell you?

 

[sancho]

But the kind of cooperation the Chinese and the Russians are running I don't see even the slightest reason why they would downgrade Chinese expertise.

The reasons that I mentioned are more than enough, infact the Russians always degrade Chinese arms, as bad copies of their own (which might be even true to some extend), but you can read up a lot of reports of them, where they say that the J11 for example is not good either, or that they are not happy about the Chinese copying their stuff, which still doesn't stop them from selling arms and techs or assisting Chinese developments. Bad mouthing in the media is by far nothing new

besides the Lioling is not much of a carrier and the J15 is hardly comparable to M29k.

That's a claim, but feel free to give any real reasons.

 

[illusion8]

The reasons that I mentioned are more than enough, infact the Russians always degrade Chinese arms, as bad copies of their own (which might be even true to some extend), but you can read up a lot of reports of them, where they say that the J11 for example is not good either, or that they are not happy about the Chinese copying their stuff,

That's a claim, but feel free to give any real reasons.

I would be inclined to go by the Russian assessment on the lioling..though you are free to go by what the Chinese fanboy assessments say about their ACC and the J15.

which still doesn't stop them from selling arms and techs or assisting Chinese developments. Bad mouthing in the media is by far nothing new

The Russians are desperate for a market for their products, but it doesn't mean that they will run wrong assessments about platforms specially if they regard them as billions of dollars worth customers, and if they actually hold the Chinese in high regard or consider their developments as hi tech they seriously would be foolish to mock it and have egg on their face if it turns out to be not true.

 

[Mitro]

You are planning to return to your home in Mars don't worry isro is doing everything it can to make your flight "Aaram deh"

Chinese are paying more $$ who told you that when india is the largest importer of weapons system.
Chinese only buy russian Engine and we buy Tank,submarine,aircraft carrier,atgm,air craft and list goes on.

And you will be running back to Pakistan with your family when that happens...right?

Chinese are paying more dollars to Russia than India is atm for weapons, ships, sub, planes, missiles and designs so I don't see why Russians would bad mouth the Chinese products if it's not the truth. I don't think copy paste systems go very far.

 
Chinese are Fcuking Russia from all over .they make submarine,fighter,anti air craft missile system and now they are behind US .
They are really smart they just take the proven concept and improve on it not like DRDO which wants to reinvent the wheel again and again.

 

[UKBengali]

Liaoning is hardly half of the Varyag, and can operate only under perfect visibility and calm seas.

Why should the Liaoning only be able to operate under perfect visibility and calm seas only? 

And you will be running back to Pakistan with your family when that happens...right?

Chinese are paying more dollars to Russia than India is atm for weapons, ships, sub, planes, missiles and designs so I don't see why Russians would bad mouth the Chinese products if it's not the truth. I don't think copy paste systems go very far.

Please back this up with a detailed list and reliable sources.

 

[sancho]

I would be inclined to go by the Russian assessment on the lioling..though you are free to go by what the Chinese fanboy assessments say about their ACC and the J15.

A so called Russian expert, please. I prefer simple logic and base my opionion on infos I gather on my own and not simply take "opinions" for granted. The fact about J15 is, that it's not a new fighter, but a navalised J11, which is in service and proven. So claiming J15 would be not comparable to Mig 29, without any real reasons is moot and same could be said about the claims about the carrier.

Btw, you can also turn it around! If we had bought naval Su 30 MKIs and the Chinese would have bought Mig 29Ks, would you also consider the Migs to be more capable?

 

[BigDaddyWatch]

Ahhh, yes i remenber when there were reports from the Russian media that said because Russia refused to sell China arresting gears that China wouldn't be able to build it herself. And guess what happened ?

If we make a Vikramaditya vs. Liaoning comparison.

CV-16 Liaoning
304m long
72m wide
10,5m draught
65000 ton
2200 crew
30 knots speed
16 to 24 Shenyang J-15

R-33 INS Vikramaditya
284m long
60m wide
9,5m draught
45400 ton
1600 crew
30 knots speed
16 MiG-29K Fulcrum-D

The Liaoning is bigger than the Vikramaditya meaning it can carry more food, fuel and crew and has space for recreation for the crew. The Liaoning has a bar, gym, postal office and even a small supermarket on board. And during the refit of the Liaoning they have taken away almost all of the weapons systems of the original design. Meaning the ship has become lighter and more fuel efficient and has opened up space inside for storage of food and weapons. Extending its endurance at sea. The Vikramaditya also has all of her weapons removed, but they also added a lot to the structure too like the ski jump or the extention to the width of the flight deck and the arresting system that was not part of the original design. So there may even have been a net gain in weight for the Vikramaditya.

The problem with the Vikramaditya starts with her oversized and missed placed island has eaten up most of the space on the flight deck. The elevators that are placed in the middle of the flight deck has further robbed it of space. The position of the elevators has further eaten up space in the hanger deck that are 30% smaller then that of the Liaoning to begin with. The flightdeck of the Vikramaditya doesn't have any jet blast deflectors meaning that when planes take off they would need to clear the deck far behind it to avoid getting burned by the 1300°C jet blasts from the MiG-29K's. Or they will have to use the back launch position on the Vikramaditya all the time. Because the elevators are in the middle of the flight deck and not on the side means that aircraft can't come up from the hangar deck when airplanes are taking off or landing. And vice versa when planes are coming up from the hangar deck there can't be any flight ops on the flight deck. There is no space between the island and the runway leaving very little room for the deck crew to work. The MiG-29K's can only come up from the front elevator next to the island and not the back one where only helicopters can come up because its too small. I don't know if the Russians has expanded the aviation fuel tanks on the Vikramaditya, if not then its going to be very hard to maintain a high operational tempo on the Vikramaditya as the ship will run out of aviation fuel just after a few sorties! Remenber that 16 MiG-29K's guzzle up a whole lot more fuel then 12 Yak-38 Forgers. So far i haven't read anything about the Russians expanding the amount of aviation fuel the ship can carry.

The Liaoning doesn't have any of these problems !

Now the J-15 vs MiG-29K

Shenyang J-15 (taken from the SU-33)

21,9m long
max take off weight: 33000kg
max speed mach 2,17
max range 3000km
service ceiling 17000m
climb rate 48,500 ft/min
T/W 0,83
stall speed 240 km/h

MiG-29K Fulcrum-D
17,3m long
max take off weight: 24500kg
max speed mach 2+
max range 2100km
service ceiling 17500m
climb rate 65,000 ft/min
T/W 0,97
stall speed 246 km/h

based on these few stats we can say that:

in favor of the J-15: longer range, lower stall speed, heavier payload

in favor of the MiG-29K: higher service ceiling, faster climb rate, higher T/W ratio.

Both are multi-role neither is battle tested.

Note that the J-15 numbers are taken from the SU-33 so its not a completely accurate comparison.

 

[hurt]

1st Indian Pilot To Land On VikramadityaHOTOS

fully operable combat capable by the only one old pilot who in back cockpit