Russia rules out arms sale to Pakistan

[Gandhi G in da house]

Two things to note:

- As Indians freely admit, the current India-Russia relationship is based purely on money, regardless of past strategic alignments. Like all relationships it is two-way. If Russia needs Indian money, then India needs Russian tech. India does not want to become too dependent on sanction-prone Western tech, and it lacks any significant indigenous capabilities like China has developed.

- Pakistan can not match India's financial clout to woo Russia, but it can offer geographic advantages to Russia which India can not. However, the balance is still not nearly enough to sway Russia, and India will continue to enjoy the advantage until the equation changes.

Money and national interest .

We also share a common threat of Islamic fundamentalism .

On the Indian side at aleast there is also a nostaligia for the days when Russia supported us and the West was against us . These are not things Indians will forget easily .For these reasons India may tilt this way or that but will never really let go of Russia .

 

[EMERCOM]

Two things to note:

- As Indians freely admit, the current India-Russia relationship is based purely on money, regardless of past strategic alignments. Like all relationships it is two-way. If Russia needs Indian money, then India needs Russian tech. India does not want to become too dependent on sanction-prone Western tech, and it lacks any significant indigenous capabilities like China has developed.

- Pakistan can not match India's financial clout to woo Russia, but it can offer geographic advantages to Russia which India can not. However, the balance is still not nearly enough to sway Russia, and India will continue to enjoy the advantage until the equation changes.

the Kleptocrat Manmohan is the problem.Soon we will get rid of him.

 

[Bang Galore]

Two things to note:

- As Indians freely admit, the current India-Russia relationship is based purely on money, regardless of past strategic alignments. Like all relationships it is two-way. If Russia needs Indian money, then India needs Russian tech. India does not want to become too dependent on sanction-prone Western tech, and it lacks any significant indigenous capabilities like China has developed.

- Pakistan can not match India's financial clout to woo Russia, but it can offer geographic advantages to Russia which India can not. However, the balance is still not nearly enough to sway Russia, and India will continue to enjoy the advantage until the equation changes.

If one is realistic, India will have to accept that Pakistan & Russia will have better relations than before & in certain areas may raise some eyebrows in India. It certainly can't be India's argument that Russia be more Indian than India herself. If India is looking at improving relations with Pakistan or is at the very least, talking to Pakistan, surely the Russians cannot be expected to not do what India herself is doing. Regardless of whatever strategic location that Pakistanis think they are offering, I believe that Russia primarily will engage with Pakistan on the matter of Afghanistan & to some extent , on the matter of terrorism. Russia would like alternate levers on Afghanistan regardless of where their sympathies lie. Having friendly relations with Pakistan certainly helps Russia in opening up that possibility whether or not that can be of use.

A secondary reason would be India's own behaviour. India has moved determinedly from relying mainly on Russia to now playing the field. That surely remains a sore point with Russia & Russia would like to remind India that it too can have a more independent foreign policy than before. While India's big ticket defence purchases from Russia & a lack of a similar capability with Pakistan precludes any dramatic shift, India will have to get used to this changing equation. I do believe that Pakistan may buy some equipment & platforms from Russia & India will have to come to terms with it. It is extremely unlikely that this will be front line platforms, both because of an adverse India reaction as well as Pakistan's close relation with China & therefore a fear of some transfer of technology but it is extremely likely that the Pakistan-Russian defence relationship will grow. Short of a major terrorist attack in Russia with its origin in Pakistan, there is very little that will stop that. That is quite simply a reality that everyone will have to come to terms with. Most Pakistanis are selling this prospective relationship short when they imagine some sort of complete role change with India. That won't, can't happen but there is something there that might be a worth a decent amount in the long run.

 

[Paan Singh]

Two things to note:

- As Indians freely admit, the current India-Russia relationship is based purely on money, regardless of past strategic alignments. Like all relationships it is two-way. If Russia needs Indian money, then India needs Russian tech. India does not want to become too dependent on sanction-prone Western tech, and it lacks any significant indigenous capabilities like China has developed.

- Pakistan can not match India's financial clout to woo Russia, but it can offer geographic advantages to Russia which India can not. However, the balance is still not nearly enough to sway Russia, and India will continue to enjoy the advantage until the equation changes.

1)You are correct upto few extent--

Every relation is based on money.U.S is ready to make strategic relation based on money which we have now and even soviets used to sell us second class hardware coz we were poor friend of dem.
so where was love? and even then they came to save us...

and even U.S have provided u more aid in floods or other cases but ur love towards china is smthng else coz there are 2 nations to whom pakistan runs in case of emergency saudis and chinese and earlier it was U.S.

if U.S like countries or all other western countries wants to milk from india then why russia will refuse? and even many of them denied paksitan and joined india including your muslim countries and chinese even....so ur point is wrong at few points.

2)Equation will never change as i mentioned the milking of india with money and other factors including controlling china and indian ocean where paksitan is seen as no where .

regarding to routes to warm waters? ..Iran have better chances coz it links to gulf and arabian sea too with Oil which pakistan dont have...and it wont disrupt india too ...

so ur routes myth is punctured by iran but iran is not U.S pawn and pakistan is...

so its game to bring paksitan inside by russia to negotiate better with U.S on central asia coz it will make U.S think to give something solid to russia.

otherwise iran and syria are russian allies and syria is gateway to west for russia but how much russia saved them? and even soviets did more than this with india in 71 ..

so u can judge where u stand and where india is ...

 

[Developereo]

On the Indian side at aleast there is also a nostaligia for the days when Russia supported us and the West was against us . These are not things Indians will forget easily .For these reasons India may tilt this way or that but will never really let go of Russia .

I have no doubt that India will always have a special place for Russia and it will remain near the top of India's shopping list. The question remains to what extent Russia will reciprocate the nostalgia, especially as India forges closer (military) ties with the West.

 

[Paan Singh]

I have no doubt that India will always have a special place for Russia and it will remain near the top of India's shopping list. The question remains to what extent Russia will reciprocate the nostalgia, especially as India forges closer (military) ties with the West.

India is not close to west..if opening market to west means allying with west then china is pawn of west ..

India buys more hardware from russia even more than france and U.S in combined.

 

[Developereo]

If one is realistic, India will have to accept that Pakistan & Russia will have better relations than before & in certain areas may raise some eyebrows in India.

I agree that there is ZERO chance of Pakistan getting any of the top end Russian technology. The only thing, other than civilian tech, is that Russia will drop any objections to Pakistan using Russian tech in JV's with China.

I really don't understand the Pakistanis going gaga over some alleged seismic shift in Russia's position.

 

[EMERCOM]

1)You are correct upto few extent--

Every relation is based on money.U.S is ready to make strategic relation based on money which we have now and even soviets used to sell us second class hardware coz we were poor friend of dem.
so where was love? and even then they came to save us...

and even U.S have provided u more aid in floods or other cases but ur love towards china is smthng else coz there are 2 nations to whom pakistan runs in case of emergency saudis and chinese and earlier it was U.S.

if U.S like countries or all other western countries wants to milk from india then why russia will refuse? and even many of them denied paksitan and joined india including your muslim countries and chinese even....so ur point is wrong at few points.

2)Equation will never change as i mentioned the milking of india with money and other factors including controlling china and indian ocean where paksitan is seen as no where .

regarding to routes to warm waters? ..Iran have better chances coz it links to gulf and arabian sea too with Oil which pakistan dont have...and it wont disrupt india too ...

so ur routes myth is punctured by iran but iran is not U.S pawn and pakistan is...

so its game to bring paksitan inside by russia to negotiate better with U.S on central asia coz it will make U.S think to give something solid to russia.

otherwise iran and syria are russian allies and syria is gateway to west for russia but how much russia saved them? and even soviets did more than this with india in 71 ..

so u can judge where u stand and where india is ...

------
Every relation is based on money.U.S is ready to make strategic relation based on money which we have now and even soviets used to sell us second class hardware coz we were poor friend of dem.
so where was love? and even then they came to save us
--------

Second class hardware?Soviets provided us our first nuclear submarine an Charlie-I SSGN . Please enlighten me which other nations to their allies.USA has never extended such privilege to the best allies it has.

 

[Fireurimagination]

Nothing wrong in India using US while keeping Russia in the loop and Russia using Pakistan keeping India in the loop

 

[arp2041]

Two things to note:

- As Indians freely admit, the current India-Russia relationship is based purely on money, regardless of past strategic alignments. Like all relationships it is two-way. If Russia needs Indian money, then India needs Russian tech. India does not want to become too dependent on sanction-prone Western tech, and it lacks any significant indigenous capabilities like China has developed.

- Pakistan can not match India's financial clout to woo Russia, but it can offer geographic advantages to Russia which India can not. However, the balance is still not nearly enough to sway Russia, and India will continue to enjoy the advantage until the equation changes.

Mate, u have summarized the issue very aptly, but i have two points to say to u:

1. Though it is true that current Indo-Russian relationship is about money, but u cannot generalize it for every defence deal as Russia has given us things that no nation not even Russia had given any other nation even if the receiving nation would have given twice the money to Russia, Akula 2 & full TOT of FGFA are the case in being, there is no other example of any other nation giving such high tech SSN like Akula on lease to any other nation & India is the only nation to get it from Russia. Secondly, yes US has made countries it's partner in the F-35 project but it is just a watered down ac of F-22 (an ac which US has not even sold to it's closest allies, even when Japan is ready to pay healthy sum for it), but Russia is offering India full tech in it's quest for a fifth gen a/c, this is unmatched co-operation (even if u say it's for money).

2. U said that things will remain the same until equation changes for Pakistan, but i don't see equation ever changing b'coz of the reason that Indian economy is 9 times that of Pakistan & is increasing at the rate of around 7% atleast for next two decades, whereas Pakistan economy is finding troubles even in growing at the rate of 3-4%, now we don't need a genius to figure out that Indian economy will be too large to ignored by Russia, as far as geographical advantage of Pakistan is concerned than we have to wait till 2014 for it, as to how things turns out after the NATO withdrawal, b'coz if things turned out be that unstable as it were before 9/11, than Russia will not like to invest in such an unstable region, where it can only lose.

 

[Developereo]

Iran

Relationship with Iran comes with its own baggage vis-a-vis the Arabs and the West. Russia has shown that there are limits to its relationship with Iran.

 

[Awesome]

They can hand them to the Chinese and they can hand them to us.

I didn't know Russia had legislation preventing this. He said "There is no change in our legislation", if there never was any restriction then we are good.

 

[Developereo]

full TOT of FGFA

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the PAKFA project shelved for lack of money until India came along and resuscitated it? Of course India would demand a king's ransom for the deal. And, yes, it was because of the historical relationship that Russia agreed.

wait till 2014 for it, as to how things turns out after the NATO withdrawal, b'coz if things turned out be that unstable as it were before 9/11, than Russia will not like to invest in such an unstable region, where it can only lose.

Actually, no one's going anywhere in a hurry. The US plans to be here for a long time, one way or another, and Russia/China are also strategizing for that long term presence. I think the superpower games in the region are actually going to intensify after 2014.

 

[arp2041]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the PAKFA project shelved for lack of money until India came along and resuscitated it? Of course India would demand a king's ransom for the deal. And, yes, it was because of the historical relationship that Russia agreed.

Exactly, i agree that Russians were finding hard to finance the PAK-FA project, but this is not exactly about money, no nation give such a high tech. weaponry to others on the simple condition that it pays for it, i mean US is not allowing the sale of F-22 even to it's staunchest allies like Israel & UK, even when it knows that it can get huge amount of money with this deal which will generate employment back in US, but Russia having agreed to give complete technology of the fifth gen fighter to India helps us to understand that the relationship cannot be simply equated to money.

 

[Paan Singh]

------
Every relation is based on money.U.S is ready to make strategic relation based on money which we have now and even soviets used to sell us second class hardware coz we were poor friend of dem.
so where was love? and even then they came to save us
--------

Second class hardware?Soviets provided us our first nuclear submarine an Charlie-I SSGN . Please enlighten me which other nations to their allies.USA has never extended such privilege to the best allies it has.

I wanted to say that wtever money we gave,we got hardware as per it....now we have money and we can get even t-50 or nerpa etc.