Russia rules out arms sale to Pakistan

[Bobby]

News does not support your picture.....stop day dreaming

 

[illusion8]

I didn't know you considered your AF to be dry cleaners. Well, the way they have been left hanging on the MMRCA deal for the past 12 years, they must be 'dried' cleaners!

no, I equated your 12 hour express service to my dry cleaner. Can you do a better job than my dry cleaner?

 

[foxbat]

You have nothing that can compete on par with F-16 Block 52 let alone Block 60 or Block 70 .

Both you and I know its not true, so I wont waste time explaining this.

And he meant Rafale vis a vis F 16 block 70

China is manufacturing all kinds of engines, just look up the W series of Jet engines. They have surprised us all time and again.

None of them is really ope-rationalized at the moment I think

 

[Mav3rick]

no, I equated your 12 hour express service to my dry cleaner. Can you do a better job than my dry cleaner?

How can the service be judged or compared when the nature of the service provided is different? Perhaps your dry cleaner should have been in the defense department. Maybe that's your dilemma, you have people in the wrong trades/professions.

 

[foxbat]

How can the service be judged or compared when the nature of the service provided is different?

Normally concepts like NPS (Net Promoter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) are used to compare and contrast effectiveness of 2 unrelated services of different nature

 

[Mav3rick]

Both you and I know its not true, so I wont waste time explaining this.

To each his own. However, factual position is that your MKI's never engaged pursuing F-16's and always chose to run away.

And he meant Rafale vis a vis F 16 block 70

Who meant what vis a vis F-16 B-70? Regardless, there is no comparison b/w the 2.

None of them is really ope-rationalized at the moment I think

Chinese claim otherwise, they claim that the stealth jet is powered by engines manufactured internally and so are J-10's/J15's & J'16's. I think only J-11's and SU-30MKK are powered by Russian jets even today. The delay in news about JF-17's too may be due to an engine change from RD-93 to RD-93A or WS-12??

 

[foxbat]

Chinese claim otherwise, they claim that the stealth jet is powered by engines manufactured internally and so are J-10's/J15's & J'16's. I think only J-11's and SU-30MKK are powered by Russian jets even today. The delay in news about JF-17's too may be due to an engine change from RD-93 to RD-93A or WS-12??

Any credible links around it.. May be my information is dated, but I have not yet heard about a single front line fighter in serial production from China being powered by a chinese built engine.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The fact is at the same time Russia is co-devloping a 5th gen fighter a/c, co-devloping a transport a/c, delivering AESAs,intergrating world-class ALCMs with one of the most potent fighters on the planet for India, selling 4.5++ gen naval fighters with advanced weapon suites etc Russia is selling UNARMED Mil-17s (which it has sold India ARMED),giving a few outdated engines and a few unarmed Tankers. Where does any of this tally with this ridiculous pic. The situation illusrtaed in the pic won't happen by will alone-ground realities just don't hold any of this true.

 

[illusion8]

How can the service be judged or compared when the nature of the service provided is different? Perhaps your dry cleaner should have been in the defense department. Maybe that's your dilemma, you have people in the wrong trades/professions.

You claim to complete a complicated fighter evaluation concerning billions of dollars worth between 6 fighters entered in the competition and with multiple tests required to ascertain the adaptability of each platform and 600 parameters to pass out and also involving TOT's, future developments, new armaments, future upgrades, best technologies, life cycle costs, joint developments etc etc etc within 12 hours and expect the countries to appreciate this too.

You can start by beating my dry cleaner with delivering dry cleaned clothes with in 12 hours first then embark on evaluating a fighter competition.

P.S. A whole war was orchestrated (or so they say) to demonstrate the 2 selected fighters ability and you think it's a joke. Gaddhafi wouldn't be too pleased

 

[Mav3rick]

You claim to complete a complicated fighter evaluation concerning billions of dollars worth between 6 fighters entered in the competition and with multiple tests required to ascertain the adaptability of each platform and 600 parameters to pass out and also involving TOT's, future developments, new armaments, future upgrades, best technologies, life cycle costs, joint developments etc etc etc within 12 hours and expect the countries to appreciate this too.

You can start by beating my dry cleaner with delivering dry cleaned clothes with in 12 hours first then embark on evaluating a fighter competition.

P.S. A whole war was orchestrated (or so they say) to demonstrate the 2 selected fighters ability and you think it's a joke. Gaddhafi wouldn't be too pleased

Honestly? I would have done a lot of home work before even starting any procurement process and once initiated I, or any other normal entity, would not have taken 12 years+ to still not come to a conclusion. To begin with, we all knew the ups and downs of inviting bids from US (bids rejection was based more on reliability of the US then the abilities of their fighters), Russia (when the plan was always to ditch Russia on this deal) and anybody else other then the honest contenders in Eurofighter and Rafael was a delaying tactic to begin with.

Besides, with so much experience on French equipment, the only real option was Rafael (once it was established that the procurement would not be from Russia, an open tender was meant to close the doors to Russia anyway which has no fighter to compete with the US F-16/F-18's or perhaps even the Rafael/Eurofighter).

Anyway, you may not like it but it is a fact that this process should not have taken this long especially if you really had the money all along. I know it takes Pakistan 5-10 years on her procurement and perhaps even longer but then again I know it's not the processing but the financing that is an issue here. Unless finance is a issue for India too, which it does not wish to disclose. I mean, really, US$20-25 Billion is no joke for any country, including Saudi Arabia and China.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Honestly? I would have done a lot of home work before even starting any procurement process and once initiated I, or any other normal entity, would not have taken 12 years+ to still not come to a conclusion. To begin with, we all knew the ups and downs of inviting bids from US (bids rejection was based more on reliability of the US then the abilities of their fighters), Russia (when the plan was always to ditch Russia on this deal) and anybody else other then the honest contenders in Eurofighter and Rafael was a delaying tactic to begin with.

Besides, with so much experience on French equipment, the only real option was Rafael (once it was established that the procurement would not be from Russia, an open tender was meant to close the doors to Russia anyway which has no fighter to compete with the US F-16/F-18's or perhaps even the Rafael/Eurofighter).

Anyway, you may not like it but it is a fact that this process should not have taken this long especially if you really had the money all along. I know it takes Pakistan 5-10 years on her procurement and perhaps even longer but then again I know it's not the processing but the financing that is an issue here. Unless finance is a issue for India too, which it does not wish to disclose. I mean, really, US$20-25 Billion is no joke for any country, including Saudi Arabia and China.

I could go through all of your points detailing just how wrong and ill-informed you are but i can't be bothered. Know this though, you are categorically wrong on almost all points.


And who are you to be telling the IAF how to spend their budget or conduct a procurement process? I highly doubt you have anything other than the most basic info on the MMRCA, if you knew the true drtails it would boggle your mind. I'd like to see any other AF do a better job.

 

[illusion8]

Honestly? I would have done a lot of home work before even starting any procurement process and once initiated I, or any other normal entity, would not have taken 12 years+ to still not come to a conclusion. To begin with, we all knew the ups and downs of inviting bids from US (bids rejection was based more on reliability of the US then the abilities of their fighters), Russia (when the plan was always to ditch Russia on this deal) and anybody else other then the honest contenders in Eurofighter and Rafael was a delaying tactic to begin with.

Besides, with so much experience on French equipment, the only real option was Rafael (once it was established that the procurement would not be from Russia, an open tender was meant to close the doors to Russia anyway which has no fighter to compete with the US F-16/F-18's or perhaps even the Rafael/Eurofighter).

Anyway, you may not like it but it is a fact that this process should not have taken this long especially if you really had the money all along. I know it takes Pakistan 5-10 years on her procurement and perhaps even longer but then again I know it's not the processing but the financing that is an issue here. Unless finance is a issue for India too, which it does not wish to disclose. I mean, really, US$20-25 Billion is no joke for any country, including Saudi Arabia and China.

I could go through all of your points detailing just how wrong and ill-informed you are but i can't be bothered. Know this though, you are categorically wrong on almost all points.


And who are you to be telling the IAF how to spend their budget or conduct a procurement process? I highly doubt you have anything other than the most basic info on the MMRCA, if you knew the true drtails it would boggle your mind. I'd like to see any other AF do a better job.

He would be more than boggled if we consider the amount of Geopolitics involved in the process.

Obama, Cameron, the Russians, the German premier, The French Premeir and The swedes bringing their share of pressure on India to get their fighter selected, and having made the decision the afteraffects of keeping everyone happy after their disappointmnts, its way more than mind boggling.

All his points are wrong and to assume that it could all be pre planned is ridiculous.

Countries and their premiers and their defense manufacturers are not fools, Germans and Russians are still harbouring hope that the decision still might come in their favor.

We are talking of billions worth equipment which will only multiply over the years. The deal revived French aviation industry and could have done the same for the Eurofighter consortium.