Russia Claims to Build an Aircraft Carrier for Indian Navy

[surya kiran]

Well,@MarkusS has a point at saying that extreme poverty is a big problem in India,these problems needs to be discussed and not avoided,and I agree with others that this isn't the right topic to do it. @MarkusS has the right to comment on every threads and give his opinions,and his opinions needs to be debated with him,and insulting him will lead to nowhere. You might not agree with him,but that's not a reason to insult him of whatever....

Yes, poverty is an issue. And we recognise it. The total population in India brought out of poverty in the past 15 years is double the population of the beloved Italy. This too has been explained to him in multiple threads. Unfortunately, he decides to enter every thread and start the same topic, derailing it. And like you pointed out, if he has a right to insult Indians, which he does in every thread, we have the right to do the same. Maybe, you need to follow his comments across the forum, before telling us as to what a white knight he is?

Our unemployment rate is 12.4% and shrinking since our economy slowly recovers. And honestly i dont see how you are doing great in eradicating anything. Living standards in india are so incredible low in evry aspect that its worse than many african nations. I see it as duty to help 3rd world. We are privilidged and i believe its good to give something to those who aren´t that fortunate. And i mean this honest. I´m christian so doing such things is important for me.

This again proves you have no idea on the numbers you are talking about. Being a typical Italian, you did not know your own economic numbers and when caught with your pants down, you avoided the answer over the past few pages. Typical Italian. I expect you to know less about Indian economic numbers. And your economy is not recovering. Far from it.

Your unemployment rates are the dumps 12% of your population is what we call unproductive. . A priviliged country does not have a 123% public debt to gdp ratio. It is a country, which is on its way to be a beggar state, that does. You may be of any denomination Christian, Islam or Atheist and it matters not to me.

If on every thread you bring up toilets and poverty, on threads which have no connection with it, I will show aggression in showing you economic indicators of Italy. If you give some, expect some back. Stick to topic, there will be no aggression.

I will read it. Although I know when we have our desi battles we flings things at each other but I think South Asia needs to sort poverty issue out.

Yes. Agreed. There are major issues. And they need to be sorted. In fact, they are being sorted. To give you an example, what were the polio numbers in Pakistan 15 years back and what are they now? The situation has improved tremendously. It is sad, of course, some nut jobs stop the complete eradication for whatever reason. Poverty cannot be removed by government dole outs. Its removed by making the population employable and educated. This takes time. Its takes 2 to 3 generations to achieve. Unless, you are a single party country, which I am not against by the way.

It is utterly disgusting to find westerners come and talk about only poverty in respect to South Asia, but not be ready to talk about their own economic numbers which are the pits.

 

[Immortan.Joe]

I think the angst that people like @MarkusS feels is the same which an old pawn shop owner feels when a Walmart opens ,across the road, to his shop. That pawn shop owner may have been sole business owner in his neighbourhood before, but now a dynamic new business is threatening to end his monopoly, thus breeding resentment.

This angst and whining should be understood from WN's/racist's perspective. Some people in Europe+USA+Australia have been fed with propaganda of "superiority of white race". Technological advancements made by countries like India and China hit their self esteem and sense of self worth. The cry of "Why are you not spending every penny you have on pooooorrrs ?" is not out of some consideration for poors, but a badly concealed expression of "Holy $h!t !! If these mudskins do not stop now, they would get ahead of us in near future". WNs/Racist's already have trouble explaining Japan; imagine the massive cognitive dissonance they would have, when they would have to justify India and China, while at the same time proclaiming that Mudskins are inferior to them whiteys.


This constant whining of some people from few developed countries ,who though being rich on paper ,due to their location or history (colonial loot), are facing very bad times and future (Italy), when it comes to developing countries pursuing technological advancement ,whether in space or in defence, should be seen in this context.


Apart from that:The argument of diverting money earmarked for technological advancement towards poor is faulty on two counts.

First, distribution of any attribute is not linear ,but approximate normal distribution. This mean that there would be some people in a population who are super genius and some who are incorrigible imbeciles. This also means that there would always be some poor,because they deserve to remain poor, irrespective of how much a country spends on poverty alleviation. After a certain point, spending money on social sector is like casting pearls before a swine. In case of India ,extra $10 billion would not be able to do what current expenditure of around $180 billion (Public + Private) on social sector could not achieve. On the other hand there are people in India who are gifted and need to be employed in hi-tech industry. These people are biggest resource of the country. If India stops providing them employment, they would either have to look for job as manager on some car-maker's shop floor, or migrate abroad.

Second, Technologies take time to mature. Had there been no SLV, there would be no PSLV, If there is no PSLV, there would be no GSLV, If there is no LCA, there would be no AMCA. The problem that we faced with LCA are solely because we have to develop whole ecosystem for it from scratch. If developing countries do not invest in technological advancement , they would be left behind and would have no wherewithal to compete with developed countries when they cease being poor. If India had not built a STOBAR carrier, it would have found building a CATOBAR carrier
impossible, and that STOBAR carrier would have been impossible, had India not been building its own frigate and destroyers for two decades now. Even today, if IAC-II is conventional, we would need only perfunctory help from outside.The reason why NDB is looking for outside help is because it wants IAC-II to be nuclear powered, which is a generational leap.

These reasons are independent of need.


Apart from them: Someone from Italy ,whose country survives on German dole, dissing India is humorous. Italy's economy is stagnant (~0% growth) since mid 1980's. It may have higher GDP due to its history (being a colonial country rather than being a colony), and its location (ease of doing business with competent European countries like Germany and France), but its edge over developing countries is degrading since 1980's. Italy's public debt is 133% of its GDP,compared to 66% of India (94% of which is held domestically). Apart from that Italy's politicians are much worse than Indian politicians. Even incompetent Indian politicians like MaunMohan are better than crop of Politicians that Italy seems to produce.

 

[Scavenger]

exactly. What we see here is the same ridicolous idea like bokassa crowning himself as emperor in congo or mobutos decission to build a landing strip for concorde in zaire jungle so his wife can fly two times a week to paris. umfortunatelly developing nations often fall into the trap of buying worthless pompous crap that nobody really needs.

I agree but for us europeans critical discussion is normal. For them its always an attack. In the end they decide what they do.

Well,@MarkusS has a point at saying that extreme poverty is a big problem in India,these problems needs to be discussed and not avoided,and I agree with others that this isn't the right topic to do it. @MarkusS has the right to comment on every threads and give his opinions,and his opinions needs to be debated with him,and insulting him will lead to nowhere. You might not agree with him,but that's not a reason to insult him of whatever....

it true though isn't it? i say somthing and next thing you know im acused of being a false flagger


lets just say their excuse for a carrier is quiet pathetic. who are they going to use it against?

Mostly the "fish" comes before the "chips"

Gentlemen, your concern for the poor and downtrodden is appreciated but unneeded.

Why? You may ask.

1. India is a democracy, not a Kingdom.
What this means that we don't have a King who lords over us and dictates his will over the people. It is the people who choose the Government rather regularly and the Government who chooses national priorities.
Ergo, it is the people who are deciding where to spend our own money.

2. Your statements would definitely have been acceptable, moral and even warranted if India were asking for aid from international donors.
Here is infact what we have said to all of your respective countries:

India rejects foreign aid for tsunami relief work

NYT: Pride and Politics: India Rejects Quake Aid

India tells Britain: We don't want your aid - Telegraph

I don't know how much more bluntly can we put this. I am sure you understand the difficulty here.

3. Indians have to make a conscious call on what their legitimate defense needs are. Not Europeans or anyone else.

The idea that the People of India (Govt of India) needs to learn about how to manage its threat environment from anyone other than Indians is laughable. We have our own threat assessments and understand the unique cultural traits of our neighbours that you do not or do to a lesser extent. Ergo, the idea that we need to learn our needs from others is well...cute to say the least.

We have not signed a mutual defense agreement with any other country. That implies that we do not depend on any of you for our needs,

Most importantly, The critical debate between butter and guns is one for Indians to make. You make a fallacy when you suggest we need to make that critical discussion or debate with you.

4. That India's economy is growing and we are not in front of IMF or need international bailouts suggest that we are certainly managing our economy currently better than yours. This is reflected in how our economic and military strength vis-a-vis European countries is rising.

And a consequence of this fact is that those from other countries do not get a say on how we choose to spend our pie.

5. That the European countries are already richer than us is a legacy issue. We cannot begrudge you for being colonizers for we were weak militarily then. That said, we can prove our worth by managing our country better in current times. Both economically and militarily.
Which, as shown in point 4, is evident.

Thanks for your genuine concern. Do direct it elsewhere if you feel the need next time.

Regards

@Abingdonboy , @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Atanz

she will , ultimately, challenge Western standards.

Without a shred of doubt.

We appreciate the West's penchant for International Rule-Of-Law. It is something to be admired.

However, we have over the years also noticed another thing(which was not evident initially) - the Laws that are made tend to benefit them much more than they benefit us. In effect, they are not equal.

So International Rule of Law as it stands favours the Western countries much more than us.Which is why West remains eager to implement it.

This will change. Evidence of this is already there for anyone with a modicum of sense - we are already blocking WTO treaties for years now and Climate change treaties because they are unfair. China supports us in most of these issues(not all though).

Ultimately, the new world order has to ensure we are equals or we will reject it increasingly as our international strength grows.

 

[MarkusS]

Yes, poverty is an issue. And we recognise it. The total population in India brought out of poverty in the past 15 years is double the population of the beloved Italy. This too has been explained to him in multiple threads. Unfortunately, he decides to enter every thread and start the same topic, derailing it. And like you pointed out, if he has a right to insult Indians, which he does in every thread, we have the right to do the same. Maybe, you need to follow his comments across the forum, before telling us as to what a white knight he is?



This again proves you have no idea on the numbers you are talking about. Being a typical Italian, you did not know your own economic numbers and when caught with your pants down, you avoided the answer over the past few pages. Typical Italian. I expect you to know less about Indian economic numbers. And your economy is not recovering. Far from it.

Your unemployment rates are the dumps 12% of your population is what we call unproductive. . A priviliged country does not have a 123% public debt to gdp ratio. It is a country, which is on its way to be a beggar state, that does. You may be of any denomination Christian, Islam or Atheist and it matters not to me.

If on every thread you bring up toilets and poverty, on threads which have no connection with it, I will show aggression in showing you economic indicators of Italy. If you give some, expect some back. Stick to topic, there will be no aggression.



Yes. Agreed. There are major issues. And they need to be sorted. In fact, they are being sorted. To give you an example, what were the polio numbers in Pakistan 15 years back and what are they now? The situation has improved tremendously. It is sad, of course, some nut jobs stop the complete eradication for whatever reason. Poverty cannot be removed by government dole outs. Its removed by making the population employable and educated. This takes time. Its takes 2 to 3 generations to achieve. Unless, you are a single party country, which I am not against by the way.

It is utterly disgusting to find westerners come and talk about only poverty in respect to South Asia, but not be ready to talk about their own economic numbers which are the pits.

I dont understand this massive aggression. Over here its totally normal to discuss issues in a critical way. Its not considered an attack in any way. I question the decission to buy an aircraft carrier when you have 200 million people starving. if you would at least develop it yourself...but you give the russians the job. So i dont see the profitat all.

to bring up our economy doesn't fetch here. our nations economy is magnitudes mire powerful than indias. im aware of our problems. but they are plain and simple meaningless compared to this.

i also dont understand your hate against my people and country. italy always had friendly relations with india. your rants prove that blind nationalism is like cancer.

 

[surya kiran]

To @Nihonjin1051 and @mike2000 is back

A few points

We are not a threat to any of the countries you chaps believe. We do not threaten China or Pakistan. We do not threaten the US or any country of the EU. We do not have enemies in the ME.

Our objective is very clear. Indian strategic thinking is based on ensuring, nobody interferes in our affairs. The IN has only just begun modernisation. We do not see us getting into conflicts with any of the above, unless they decide to undermine our interests. The only country with who we will have a heated discussion, not war, is China. I fail to understand and I have said this in multiple threads, why China refuses to settle the border dispute. This is what deters India with trustfully dealing with China. We have no beef in the SCS. The easiest border dispute for China to settle is with India. There is no US or any other country involved, neither will we get anybody else involved.

Having said this, do we trust the any other country? No. Like the saying in the US, In God we Trust, everybody else needs to be verified.

Coming to the point of IN and USN working together in the IOR. Honestly, USN today is the biggest power in the IOR. Their operational experience is second to none. So it is a great learning experience for our crews. The second question that arises, are these a threat to China? Well, that requires a nuanced answer. Why would it be a threat? And why is it considered a threat? That is a question, China will need to answer.

The aircraft carriers have been used to devastating effect by the IN earlier. They have been also used for soothing effects during disasters. Both natural and man made.

to bring up our economy doesn't fetch here. our nations economy is magnitudes mire powerful than indias. im aware of our problems. but they are plain and simple meaningless compared to this.

i also dont understand your hate against my people and country. italy always had friendly relations with india. your rants prove that blind nationalism is like cancer.

If you bring up economics and poverty in an aircraft carrier discussion, expect me to bring up Italian economy and economics. I am not going to give you another lesson on how 'powerful' your economy is. Which I can. So desist.

And I do not hate your country. It is beautiful and has fantastic food. But, the people there are a different matter. The only 'developed' country in Europe, where we have had pockets picked and bags snitched. And no, its not just me. 2 of my friends have had the same experience in Rome. The cops simply did not care. And you tell me about how brilliant your living conditions are. And then you have thieves. Thieves who steal while having 'everything' are not doing it out of necessity, but, habit and nature. And let us not even get into the discussion of the Marines. So forgive me, if I do not exactly have favourable views of Italians.

Stick to defence matters on defence threads. You bring in economics, you will be shown the mirror.

 

[Vergennes]

And I do not hate your country. It is beautiful and has fantastic food. But, the people there are a different matter. The only country in Europe, where we have had pockets picked and bags snitched. And no, its not just me. 2 of my friends have had the same experience in Rome. The cops simply did not care. And let us not even get into the discussion of the Marines. So forgive me, if I do not exactly have favourable views of Italians.

I went to Roma,and what I saw wasn't Italians stealing people but ROMA GYPSIES,these people are a problem everywhere they are be it in France,Spain,and other European countries. I wasn't victim of them,so I can't tell if the Polizia or Carabinieri don't care. @MarkusS
There's little Italy can do against these parasites as they are """""European"""""" citizens.... or they can "violate the law" as France does and send them back to where they came from.

 

[surya kiran]

I went to Roma,and what I saw wasn't Italians stealing people but ROMA GYPSIES,these people are a problem everywhere they are be it in France,Spain,and other European countries.

Are you suggesting, that they are not Italians because they are gypsies? I also fail to understand why, if they exist in all these countries its only Italy that they seem to be active. And why in a 'privileged' and 'developed' country the cops seem to look the other way? Maybe they are corrupt and have cuts too? The Italian police are not exactly the best in Eurpoe.

Coming back to the problem of this chap to who I have been responding is less to do with Italians and more to do with his habit of entering Indian threads and then starting on about poverty and then ends up insulting Indians, when we show him numbers. This is despite providing him with numbers and statistics.

Like I pointed out earlier, if he starts displaying his 'knowledge' of India, which is his right, he should be ready to listen to criticism from us. And if he insults us, he will get it back. Now as you can see, suddenly he has love for the Taj and the rest on this thread. You know why? Because, he refuses to answer the economic points he has trouble debating on. The only way to deal with these chaps is to give it back to them. He goes off topic, he can expect things in return.

 

[Vergennes]

They were not a problem in UK, France, Greece, Spain, Germany and Holland. And what is their citizenship? And are you suggesting, that they are not Italians because they are gypsies?

They mostly have the Romanian and Bulgarian citizenships. Even in these countries,they have problems with Roma gypsies.

Coming back to the problem of this chap to who I have been responding is less to do with Italians and more to do with his habit of entering Indian threads and then starting on about poverty and then ends up insulting Indians, when we show him numbers. This is despite providing him with numbers and statistics.

Like I pointed out earlier, if he starts displaying his 'knowledge' of India, which is his right, he should be ready to listen to criticism from us. And if he insults us, he will get it back. Now as you can see, suddenly he has love for the Taj and the rest on this thread. You know why? Because, he refuses to answer the economic points he has trouble debating on. The only way to deal with these chaps is to give it back to them. He goes off topic, he can expect things in return.

@MarkusS criticizes a lot,and i'm pretty sure that he would accept the critics toward Italy,I can't understand why there are insults. If he criticizes my country,I'll answer to him to prove if he's right and what can we do to fix our problems or wrong and prove him why.
Some probably didn't understand,but he didn't mean to insult anyone.

 

[Armstrong]

If he criticizes my country,I'll answer to him to prove if he's right and what can we do to fix our problems or wrong and prove him why.
Some probably didn't understand,but he didn't mean to insult anyone.

Can I criticize your country ?

Why don't you guys export macarones to Pakistan ?

 

[surya kiran]

criticizes a lot,and i'm pretty sure that he would accept the critics toward Italy,I can't understand why there are insults. If he criticizes my country,I'll answer to him to prove if he's right and what can we do to fix our problems or wrong and prove him why.
Some probably didn't understand,but he didn't mean to insult anyone.

Well from experience with him, we have given him enough info on his 'criticisms' and provided him with information on what is happening. He refuses to do the reading and starts the same rant on every thread. Just that, on this particular thread he got it back.

Can I suggest, we now stop discussing him and let the thread topic continue?

Can I criticize your country ?

Why don't you guys export macarones to Pakistan ?

Ab tu chalu math ho yahan par. Koi accounting book tally nahin karna hai kya? Year ending aa gaya hai.

@WAJsal
@waz

I know this is asking a lot. But, could you please clean this thread? Yours truly has also added quite a bit of nonsense to this thread. Apologies for the same.

 

[Armstrong]

Ab tu chalu math ho yahan par. Koi accounting book tally nahin karna hai kya? Year ending aa gaya hai.

@WAJsal
@waz

I know this is asking a lot. But, could you please clean this thread? Yours truly has also added quite a bit of nonsense to this thread. Apologies for the same.

 

[surya kiran]

Tere baare mein nahin bol raha hoon, mere dukhi aatma. Bahut gandagi ho chuki hai is thread par.

 

[Vergennes]

Can I criticize your country ?

Why don't you guys export macarones to Pakistan ?

Macarons in exchange of Lahori cuisine.
Deal ?

Sorry,I stop the off topic posts.

 

[topgun047]

People with bleeding hearts for India's poor should first ask their ambassadors to stop hawking thier wares like a street whore to India before trying to lecture India on buying aircraft carriers.

 

[Abingdonboy]

if you would at least develop it yourself...but you give the russians the job. So i dont see the profitat all.

It IS being devloped and built in India, no matter what BS the Russians want to propogate. The first carrier (IAC-1) is almost complate in Kochi (INDIA):

Why would India now ask a nation who has questionable capabilties at best to make their second carrier class?


Get your facts right before you go spouting pure nonsense.