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Ram Jethmalani's comments anger Saudi ambassador

It is interesting how his stamentents are being mis-represented by right wingers on both sides of the religious divide

Although Jethmalani has done some research, it is half of the effort but before I discuss his statement, let me clarify that houirs that will be given in paradise will MARRIED and not traded so Brothel is hardly a right description and completely wrong understanding. Beside you don't have to be a martyr, you will be given houris for doing good deeds anyways. And if YOU don't want them, then Allah will not force them on you. Paradise is a fulfillment of your desires which you kept in check on Earth to follow a righteous life. You didn't cheat with your neighbors or friends wife. Nor did you have sex outside marriage.

And if you don't desire new wives and want only your earthly wife (who will be much more beautiful than any of the heavenly wives), then you will have full right to choose that.

Moreover, the current situation were we have so called jihadis wrecking havoc in the name of Islam use the Syed Qutb, Al-Banna, Maududi and to a greater extent Abdulla Azzam's fringe interpretations. What he has mentioned belongs to their school of thought not the wahabbis. Although wahabbi school of thought itself needs some corrective measures, its not the root ideology of terrorism in the name of Islam

Addressing the seminar, Jethmalani wondered if the jehadi doctrine, propagating the belief allegedly held by Islam's Wahab sect that Muslims attaining martyrdom while fighting non-Muslims "get a place in heaven and the company of the opposite sex there", does not amount to saying that "god is a brothel keeper".
The wrong pseudo-jehadi doctrine is not propagated by wahabbis, but by Qutubists. This is a deviant fringe ideology which was fueled in the 70s-80s as a counter to Communism across the Arab world. Even Europeans and the Americans provided financial and military and subeversion training to these groups. This is why they have become so visible today.


"I am a student of all religions, including Islam, and I have read the Koran several times. I find that the Prophet is a man of peace," said Jethmalani, adding that it nowhere preaches hate and violence.

"But the decline of Islam started in the 17th century when a person named Wahab propagated hate and violence against all non-Muslims by mis-interpreting one shora (verse) of the Koran," said Jethmalani.

"I have read that shora thousands of times, but I have not found anything wrong in it. But, according to Wahab, all other people, including Christians, Jews and Hindus, and even Shias, have forfeited their rights to live," said Jethmalani.
This is more or less accurate, the Quran is the primary source and no where does it preach violence to civilians muslim or non-muslim. The Wahabbi school of thought does have some wrong teachings and intolerant to some practices among muslims, but no where do they preach violence against civilians or terrorism. The anti-modernist attitude may be a fertile ground for recruitment for misguided youth just like poverty, lack of education e.t.c. are, but they are not the root ideology or cause.


It was unfortunate that the entire Islam as a religion was being blamed for terrorism, Jethmalani said, adding that "there are also Hindu terrorists and Buddhist terrorists".
Ofcourse, religion or ethnic based nationlism and extremism is the problem. And the same main contours will be found across religious extremists.

Let me give an example. The AQ worldview is that everything that is happening is a conspiracy against muslims. Every issue is given a communal color. Even muslim leaders are treated as traitors for not being "true" muslims. A pan-muslim sense of injustice being committed is developed through exaggerated reports which may have some truth in them. And the only way to salvage this is wrongly attributed to establishing their country's government and establish a true "Islamic" state that will "protect" the muslims.

Compare this with Abhinav Bharat (a banned hindu extremist group that was involved in terrorist attacks). India as a country has failed the Hindus, Hindus leaders who don't conform to their world view are called traitors and are not considerd to be "true" Hindus although they may be devout. A pan-hindu sense of injustice committed against Hindus around the world is developed sometimes with true reports. Abhinav Bharat members would then be told to get ready for a Dharm Yudh to protect the Hindus and were involved in destablising the govt.t so that a "Hindu Rashtra" could be established which would theoretically solve all their problems.

Another example is the ethnic-religious nationalism of the Nazis. This was a combination of the white race as well as Christian religion dominance. Mein Kamf details how Hitler felt of the Jewish betrayal and how world powers are conspiring against the Germans and Christians. He used verses from the Bible to legitimise violence against jews saying that they were responsible for crucifying Jesus Christ. And only a return to a fascist and ethno religious nationalist govt. could save Germany. This new governmetn called the "Third Reich" was to be a sucessor of the fabled Holy Roman Empire and was to usher in a new era of 1000 years of peace and prosperity.
In a way this is the extreme case of what can happen. Jews were exterminated in the millions while Germany itself did become an economic power house but swiftly engaged in militaristic adventures and destroyed itself.

These are some examples but the broad social aspects of the revolutionary ideas come from the same time period the 1920s-1950s when fascist and communist revolutions were quite prevalent. Each religious / ethnic groups uses the same contours and co-opts it into their own world view based on their religious scriptures which are usually a perversion of the original religious traditions.
 
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u people are crazy go and read ur own scriptures..

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while Holy Quran is its true form....anyone can tell cuz of its scientific miracles including big bang theory and stages of child development in the womb of a mother when there was no ultra sound 1400 years ago...i hope this helps..may God bless you

Hi MadDog,

Thanks for your quotes. IMHO, religion is (or, at any rate, should be) a science, and as any scientist knows, not all scientific contributions are equally credible or inspired.

Then there are the issues of authenticity, and of accuracy of translations.

Anyway, your quotes do not disturb me, nor should what I have posted disturb you, if you are imbued with a dispassionate and rational outlook.

As regards the supposed miracles of the Quran, you may find this article to be of interest:

Western Scholars Play Key Role In Touting 'Science' of the Quran THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: January 23, 2002
 
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It is interesting how his stamentents are being mis-represented by right wingers on both sides of the religious divide

So you are supporting his statement of "Allah a brothel keeper." by using 1000 word long circular logic. Why should you be treated any different than the minister who made those statement in presence of indian President.

And nice try - those statement you quoted are not mine but of indian minister, you better clearify that.
 
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So you are supporting his statement of "Allah a brothel keeper." by using 1000 word long circular logic. Why should you be treated any different than the minister who made those statement in presence of indian President.

And nice try - those statement you quoted are not mine but of indian minister, you better clearify that.

Why are you twisting the news?? :hitwall: He is asking whether Allah is a brothel keeper??..He asked like this because the hard core militant groups encouraging young people to convert into suicide bomber saying that Allah will give them 72 virgins in heaven if they become Shaheed....


Now you tell me who is portraying the god a brothel keeper here??

You know Idune you have to do some better job in twisting news so that others can bash India..
 
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Why are you twisting the news?? :hitwall: He is asking whether Allah is a brothel keeper??..He asked like this because the hard core militant groups encouraging young people to convert into suicide bomber saying that Allah will give them 72 virgins in heaven if they become Shaheed....

Twisting is indian practice. That's why indian minister stated his deep rooted feeling and hatred against Islam in the form of a question. He knows very well Islam as a religion has nothing to do with extremists but he choose bigoted vitriol with Indian twist anyway. I have seen in other Indian forum Indians are celebrating his courage and same way you are defending and celebrating his statement. Besides, if news I posted was for twisting then why are you so desperate to defend indian minister bigoted statements????? Apple does not fall far from the tree.
 
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Sir with all due respect ...plz check these videos first...
views of scientists who have read those verses...they are telling
in the second clip that its impossible to tell each and every development of child in a womb of mother 1400 years ago..without any ultrasound.

1)

AND

2)

AND PLEASE DO READ THE BOOK "The Bible, Qur'an and Science" by Dr. Maurice Bucaile , a catholic guy..he tells about the accuracy of scientific facts in Holy Quran To know more about him
Maurice Bucaille - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and the book The Bible, Qur'an and Science - Dar-us-Salam.com

Hope this helps you...Regards
 
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Twisting is indian practice. That's why indian minister stated his deep rooted feeling and hatred against Islam in the form of a question. He knows very well Islam as a religion has nothing to do with extremists but he choose bigoted vitriol with Indian twist anyway. I have seen in other Indian forum Indians are celebrating his courage and same way you are defending and celebrating his statement. Apple does not fall far from the tree.

Whats the hatred in Islam has anything to do with it??... He was asking why the terrorist people misguiding young people to become suicide bombers so that they can get 72 virgins in the heaven..you don't see anything wrong in these???misguiding people in the name of religion?? and some one asked about it and it was a big problem for you?

I admire his courage that no one has ever criticize Middle east oil rich nations publically for their support for terrorist organizations..At least some one started it ..Its a world known fact that terrorist organizations got funds from these oil rich states..And its about time to curb that money flow..

Some one started to criticize them ,many will follow
 
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@idune

He also said


'I am a student of all religions, including Islam and I have read the Koran several times. I find that the Prophet is a man of peace,' said Jethmalani, adding that it nowhere preaches hate and violence.


Don't you agree with this statement?

Instead of being intellectually weak like other people you mentioned who take this statement to demean Islam, why don't you critique his view. There is no point in hinding espicially when there is nothing to hide.

He is right in some statements like the one I quote above. The others related to wahabi sect he has some misunderstanding but he is not alone in that, there are many among muslims hwo think the same way.
 
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Maddog bro, intention of Halaku Khan was to divert focus from indian minister comments and create an aruments where we have to defend against his out of context and some cooked up materials. He got indians supporting his effort and defending indian minister statements.

This is not the first time Halaku Khan has done that there are other threads he expressed such bigoted view. I am completly sutrprised to see lack of Mod action.
 
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@idune

He also said


'I am a student of all religions, including Islam and I have read the Koran several times. I find that the Prophet is a man of peace,' said Jethmalani, adding that it nowhere preaches hate and violence.

Thats another example of deception, after his bigoted vitriol against Islam as a faith indian minister try to do damage control. And you promoting that deception make your intention even more darker.
 
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Thats another example of deception, after his bigoted vitriol against Islam as a faith indian minister try to do damage control. And you promoting that deception make your intention even more darker.

For god sake put aside your Anti India ranting and read the links you gave us and ask your self is there anything wrong about what he said??He questions the people who twisting the Holy Quran and misguiding the people about god keeping 72 virgins for them?Does Holy Quran justifies killing innocent killings??Who gave those guy authority to misinterpret Holy Quran according to the version which suits them??
 
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So you are supporting his statement of "Allah a brothel keeper." by using 1000 word long circular logic. Why should you be treated any different than the minister who made those statement in presence of indian President.

And nice try - those statement you quoted are not mine but of indian minister, you better clearify that.

Dear Dude or whatever,

You are not happy with the decent and informative discussion going on. The very fact you posted this was you wanted all to jump up and criticize India and everything Indian. People like you are biggest problems for religion and mankind who want to spread hatred and to get an ego boost.
Ram is a very famous advocate with fiercely independent views and I don’t think he follows any religion. You have bunked the context and the assertion that Allah is peace and love…but picked up the flame bit look deep into yourself .Feel pathetic and sorry for you and hats off to the members for a matured discussion.
I personally feel one should not comment on any other religion until one has a good knowledge of it.
 
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Real questions people should ask,

How in fromt of Indian President ex indian minister spew hatred against Islam as fa aith??

And why these statements from ex indian minister should not be construed to have tacit indian govt support??

If indians are not holding same view against Islam why indians across the board defending ex indian minister and his position???
 
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Thats another example of deception, after his bigoted vitriol against Islam as a faith indian minister try to do damage control. And you promoting that deception make your intention even more darker.

First of all he's not a current minister, he is not even part of the government.

This is my last port to you, cause you can't seem to get past my Indian flag. I don't "promote" his statements. If you read my post, the very first thing was demolish the question about equating rewards in after life to a brothel.

I even disagreed his wrong view that Wahabbi sect of Islam is the "root" cause and explained that it is a completely different ideology around extreme religious nationalism that is the cause with relevant examples.

If know English is not our first language but at least make an attempt to read what I posted earlier.
 
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