Qaher F313 l News & Discussion

[eagle2007]

ALCON,

Sorry I've missed out on all the fun fellas. Been having some wonky internet all day.

I have been tracking this story since this morning however, in between sketchy connections..

Here are my observations for what it's worth:

• Control Surfaces- I'm not aeronautical engineer so I won't try claim I know about whether those wings/canards work. The one thing I will say is this: the thickness of the wing isn't what bothers me, it's more that the wing's leading edge seems to barely have any edge to it at all. Perhaps because the canards are mounted directly in front of them? No clue there but it is unusual. (and yes Mohsen, I did look closely and the X-32's wing and it has MUCH more edge to it than the F-313's).
• Engines- Given the F-313's apparent size, I think J85s are a logical guess. Whether they've got afterburners installed or not, can'be certain. Their positioning will help somewhat with their IR signature but given they're turboJET engines, it's going to be difficult to hide regardless. As a rule, turbojets operate at much higher temperatures than turbofans (hence why even small engines like the J85 use titanium).
• Sensor Ball- Definitely takes away from the aircraft's authenticity in IMHO. While it is fairly small, you don't generally installed round sensor balls on a high-speed aircraft without making it flush with the airframe somehow (see how the MiG-29's IRST is mounted or even Japan's upgraded F-15s).
• Intakes- As I've said before, from my various readings of aviation books that cover "stealth" aircraft, the idea of high-mounted intakes like this does help when trying to reduce your RCS from ground-based radars. Likewise however, given how they're mounted and my basic understanding of aerodynamics, if you're pulling high angles of attack, the airflow into those intakes will be reduced compared to more traditional later intakes. With reduced airflow, comes the increased possibility of an engine stall. There's likely a reason these type of intakes are fairly rare and only sported by dedicated attack/bomber type aircraft (F-117, B-2, to name a few), they aren't design to maneuver!
• Size- This just a pure eyeball-test but I'd say the F-313 is about the same size as an F-5, though with a greater wingspan I'd wager. It looks bigger in same angles because it's "thicker" than the F-5. It's control surfaces are much thicker, as is the main body itself. This isn't a bad thing, the F-5 was VERY "skinny" for it's size.

Performance- A lot goes into this & again, just my self-educated opinion here:

• 1) Do those engines have afterburners? If not, almost no chance it can achieve supersonic speed.
• 2) To Mohsen's point of about the F-5 being supersonic and being "made out of metal": The F-5 is also "thinner" than the F-313, aka it's wings and vertical stabilizer are VERY thin/sharp. This was done to, you guessed it, achieve as much speed as possible with an airframe with just 10,000lbs of afterburning thrust. The F-313 has much thicker control surfaces and high-mounted intakes (so less airflow than the F-5's lateral intakes, especially in higher AoAs).
• 3) So even it had the same amount of thrust available and used a high % of composites, I suspect it's top speed wouldn't be any better than the F-5E's, possibly less even.
• 4) Assuming the previous point was true, that's not really that important. Higher supersonic speeds are highly overrated in today's combat aviation. Mach 1.5 or so is considered plenty fast these days for a fighter of the F-313 apparent size (see KAI T-50 for example).

Finally, as to whether this is a REAL design or not. Besides the rather oddly mounted sensor ball, I don't see much preventing what we saw today from flying. How WELL it would fly is another matter. I've always felt there was a real design behind the F-313 from the beginning. My suspicions were centered more on whether the MoD was treating it like a serious project and just a headline grabber. Still not 100% sure on that front but what we saw today certainly look more real than the previous unveiling & looks pretty viable to boot. Time will tell.

 

[arashkamangir]

Back in 2013 when this was unveiled, on IMF I made comments people didn't want to realize back then. I said realistically this plane won't be ready for true prototype testing till 2018-2020 with mass production happening for 2022-2025 timeframe. At the time users said it would taxi in 6 months.

This plane has largerly followed a track that makes sense and thus not surprising (to me at least). For example, it made sense they would switch to dual engine layout using J-85 in early prototype testing. I believe I even said that when it was first revealed.

This plane is still in experimental stages, with defense ministry backing this is likely to get picked up by IRGC for production.

For those that said this plane is for anti-shipping role. I never agreed for many reasons. One....who makes a plane just for anti-shipping role? And why would Iran that has cruise missiles and is working on supersonic cruise missile spend time building an efficient method of anti-ship role. Never made sense and still doesn't.

My current thoughts and opinion are as follows.

*this plane is still in EARLY prototype testing stage. Many changes will occur till production.

2 versions of plane (both 50+% bigger than current prototype)

Version A: IRGC close air support fighter jet. Powered by 2 RD-33's or single undisclosed engine.

*The war in Syria truly woke up IRGC leadership to the importance of close air support. Prior to that close air support was a luxury that IRGC did not believe was fully needed. They believed that brute ground force can win wars even against asymmetrical forces such as insurgents and terrorists. The demonstration of Russian air power changed that considerably. This lead to the development of IRGC division to focus on close air support plane. I believe the IRGC could very well select F-313 for its close air support purposes as well as the Iran Airforce

Version B: Air superiority/multi role (larger than version A).

*Contrary to what other users are saying I believe this plane can also be an air superiority fighter. It would be larger than Version A and primary focus would be to defend Iranian skies in case of war.

I think both versions will be supersonic and I think the intakes will be made larger and will "drop down" further for both versions (but the very least for Version B). I felt that way since it was first unveiled and still think that way now.

Reason why it will be supersonic is because Iran needs close air support planes for potentially external conflicts in Middle East. Thus it needs planes that can enter a war zone fast. Thus even the ground variant would need supersonic capability for operational efficency and survivability in war zone.

Currently this plane is still a ways away from entering final design testing. Depending on funding and which military branch shows serious interest (IRGC, Airforce, Army) could affect timeline.

I wouldn't expect this plane to enter mass production for another 5 years at the earliest. If we say for example that q-313 project began in let's say 2010 then a 15 year development cycle would put mass production around 2025 which is plausible. People need to realize the sub-systems, radar, weapons, etc. need to be refined and developed as well it's not just the plane itself.

Anyway a lot of speculation. Early stages in this project. Long way still to go. But proceeding nicely.

I agree with your assessment here, and I think purely an anti-ship role fighter is not feasible but coupled with ground support, then we could definitely have a platform to work with. Dehghan even said their time frame is 5-10 years for an operational plane. I love Dehghan, he knows project management and knows how to define a project scope. I hope we get to see more of his foot print in the next 20 years.

Also nice to see you here

 

[WarFariX]

Back in 2013 when this was unveiled, on IMF I made comments people didn't want to realize back then. I said realistically this plane won't be ready for true prototype testing till 2018-2020 with mass production happening for 2022-2025 timeframe. At the time users said it would taxi in 6 months.

This plane has largerly followed a track that makes sense and thus not surprising (to me at least). For example, it made sense they would switch to dual engine layout using J-85 in early prototype testing. I believe I even said that when it was first revealed.

This plane is still in experimental stages, with defense ministry backing this is likely to get picked up by IRGC for production.

For those that said this plane is for anti-shipping role. I never agreed for many reasons. One....who makes a plane just for anti-shipping role? And why would Iran that has cruise missiles and is working on supersonic cruise missile spend time building an efficient method of anti-ship role. Never made sense and still doesn't.

My current thoughts and opinion are as follows.

*this plane is still in EARLY prototype testing stage. Many changes will occur till production.

2 versions of plane (both 50+% bigger than current prototype)

Version A: IRGC close air support fighter jet. Powered by 2 RD-33's or single undisclosed engine.

*The war in Syria truly woke up IRGC leadership to the importance of close air support. Prior to that close air support was a luxury that IRGC did not believe was fully needed. They believed that brute ground force can win wars even against asymmetrical forces such as insurgents and terrorists. The demonstration of Russian air power changed that considerably. This lead to the development of IRGC division to focus on close air support plane. I believe the IRGC could very well select F-313 for its close air support purposes as well as the Iran Airforce

Version B: Air superiority/multi role (larger than version A).

*Contrary to what other users are saying I believe this plane can also be an air superiority fighter. It would be larger than Version A and primary focus would be to defend Iranian skies in case of war.

I think both versions will be supersonic and I think the intakes will be made larger and will "drop down" further for both versions (but the very least for Version B). I felt that way since it was first unveiled and still think that way now.

Reason why it will be supersonic is because Iran needs close air support planes for potentially external conflicts in Middle East. Thus it needs planes that can enter a war zone fast. Thus even the ground variant would need supersonic capability for operational efficency and survivability in war zone.

Currently this plane is still a ways away from entering final design testing. Depending on funding and which military branch shows serious interest (IRGC, Airforce, Army) could affect timeline.

I wouldn't expect this plane to enter mass production for another 5 years at the earliest. If we say for example that q-313 project began in let's say 2010 then a 15 year development cycle would put mass production around 2025 which is plausible. People need to realize the sub-systems, radar, weapons, etc. need to be refined and developed as well it's not just the plane itself.

Anyway a lot of speculation. Early stages in this project. Long way still to go. But proceeding nicely.

similar thoughts

 

[Blue In Green]

They are oval-shaped, they look thick from the front, but they are not if you look from the back.. meaning they are shaped to disperse radar waves..

Fair, I see where you're coming from. But aren't those wing flaps a bit too small? I'm almost certain they should be a little bit bigger no?

But some other points of contention I have is the overall build quality. When I look at the surface of this jet, I don't see superior craft mans ship or smoothness or even uniform all around. If you look closely it has these weird bends and bumps aND it almost looks like piece's of the jet just aren't aligned all that well. Yet again these is just an assumption but in general when compared to other jets I guess my expectations are too high considering the sanctions and budget constraints Iran has.

Regardless it is an amaxing jet it's worked on some more and the design is improved on.

 

[Vapnope]

Congrats from Pakistan, Keep up the good work.

P.S Haters gonna hate, so let them burn.

 

[WarFariX]

Congrats from Pakistan, Keep up the good work.

P.S Haters gonna hate, so let them burn.

this is iranian jet

 

[Malik Alashter]

Back in 2013 when this was unveiled, on IMF I made comments people didn't want to realize back then. I said realistically this plane won't be ready for true prototype testing till 2018-2020 with mass production happening for 2022-2025 timeframe. At the time users said it would taxi in 6 months.

This plane has largerly followed a track that makes sense and thus not surprising (to me at least). For example, it made sense they would switch to dual engine layout using J-85 in early prototype testing. I believe I even said that when it was first revealed.

This plane is still in experimental stages, with defense ministry backing this is likely to get picked up by IRGC for production.

For those that said this plane is for anti-shipping role. I never agreed for many reasons. One....who makes a plane just for anti-shipping role? And why would Iran that has cruise missiles and is working on supersonic cruise missile spend time building an efficient method of anti-ship role. Never made sense and still doesn't.

My current thoughts and opinion are as follows.

*this plane is still in EARLY prototype testing stage. Many changes will occur till production.

2 versions of plane (both 50+% bigger than current prototype)

Version A: IRGC close air support fighter jet. Powered by 2 RD-33's or single undisclosed engine.

*The war in Syria truly woke up IRGC leadership to the importance of close air support. Prior to that close air support was a luxury that IRGC did not believe was fully needed. They believed that brute ground force can win wars even against asymmetrical forces such as insurgents and terrorists. The demonstration of Russian air power changed that considerably. This lead to the development of IRGC division to focus on close air support plane. I believe the IRGC could very well select F-313 for its close air support purposes as well as the Iran Airforce

Version B: Air superiority/multi role (larger than version A).

*Contrary to what other users are saying I believe this plane can also be an air superiority fighter. It would be larger than Version A and primary focus would be to defend Iranian skies in case of war.

I think both versions will be supersonic and I think the intakes will be made larger and will "drop down" further for both versions (but the very least for Version B). I felt that way since it was first unveiled and still think that way now.

Reason why it will be supersonic is because Iran needs close air support planes for potentially external conflicts in Middle East. Thus it needs planes that can enter a war zone fast. Thus even the ground variant would need supersonic capability for operational efficency and survivability in war zone.

Currently this plane is still a ways away from entering final design testing. Depending on funding and which military branch shows serious interest (IRGC, Airforce, Army) could affect timeline.

I wouldn't expect this plane to enter mass production for another 5 years at the earliest. If we say for example that q-313 project began in let's say 2010 then a 15 year development cycle would put mass production around 2025 which is plausible. People need to realize the sub-systems, radar, weapons, etc. need to be refined and developed as well it's not just the plane itself.

Anyway a lot of speculation. Early stages in this project. Long way still to go. But proceeding nicely.

What you said make sense other wise this thing with its small size make no sense.
So we have some 5-10 years for this project to fruit something credible.

 

[TheImmortal]

I agree with your assessment here, and I think purely an anti-ship role fighter is not feasible but coupled with ground support, then we could definitely have a platform to work with. Dehghan even said their time frame is 5-10 years for an operational plane. I love Dehghan, he knows project management and knows how to define a project scope. I hope we get to see more of his foot print in the next 20 years.

Also nice to see you here

Thanks for the warm welcome.

I did not realize that Dehghan said that, did he say that recently? That shows realism on their part which leads me to believe this is a credible project.

Again the words "Experimental 08" just reinforce my thoughts of early prototype testing. Now I wonder wether that means there is 8 F-313 prototype planes so far or this is "version 8" (ie with different subsystems added or configuration).

Either way the fact the FLIR is not hidden or built in at this points to early stages of subsystem testing potentially. Furthermore, the lack of radar absorbing coating (which Iran has said its working on) means this hasn't gone through extensive radar testing and coating application analysis.

Obviously politics and development success will play a big part in wether this project gets done on time.

If this project doesn't get or hasn't already have IRGC backing it will be tough for it to take off as substantial funding is needed for next phases.

The engines in development is a key factor in development cycle how soon they are ready and reliably tested.

Nonetheless Iran knows it has to act on its Airforce. By 2025 most of its planes will need to be grounded. With the Saeghe 1 &2 project being shelved....doesn't seem like Iran wants to extend its current F-5's much longer than that. Only the F-14 will be operationally capable till 2030-2035 along with some Russian aircraft.

While the arms embargo lifting will allow Iran to gain access to more modern fighter planes via Russia. Iran cannot build its entire airforce around Russia....that would be beyond strategically stupid and leave Iran vulnerable if ties to russia were to worsen or get strained. Iran obviously knows this.

China doesn't seem like a reliable strategic partner yet in iran's eyes and the Iranian military isn't very fond of Chinese Fighters.

Thus the logical path is self-sufficency along side Russian fighter jet purchases and potentially ToT and local production.

 

[#hydra#]

Cool look.

 

[The SC]

Fair, I see where you're coming from. But aren't those wing flaps a bit too small? I'm almost certain they should be a little bit bigger no?

But some other points of contention I have is the overall build quality. When I look at the surface of this jet, I don't see superior craft mans ship or smoothness or even uniform all around. If you look closely it has these weird bends and bumps aND it almost looks like piece's of the jet just aren't aligned all that well. Yet again these is just an assumption but in general when compared to other jets I guess my expectations are too high considering the sanctions and budget constraints Iran has.

Regardless it is an amaxing jet it's worked on some more and the design is improved on.

Overall build quality: Impression about the surface..
This is a brand new German Type-209 delivered in 2017:

Here is one sailing..

 

[Super Commando Dhruva]

I am sorry, Iran but we all have seen, the famous 5th Gen fighter plan on icy mountain with photoshop. 5th Gen is not that easy as it looks. Please do not make fool your own people.

 

[haman10]

Are u seriously comparing iran to a nuclear power with slbm and mirv capability, the drone drama was our own doing, we were playing a game in afghanistan with the americans which we were succesful in, we acted as their allies while tying them in afghanistan by cobvertly supporting snd leading the taliban, by the time the americans realised this it was too late for them, we beat then at their own game, our proxy taliban had won in afghanistan and even the Us is now forced to call them a valid political group, they control more than 60% of the territory, the americans planned to establish a base ground in afghanistan and from there break pak into 4 pieces, an agenda in which they dreadfully failed just as the soviet union failed when isi succesfully made them eat dust in afghanistan leading to the demise of a superpower, we play with the big boys my friend and teach them lessons on several ocassions, iran is just a loud mouth who didnt have the balls to make nuclear weapons, u buckled under threat of Us invasion, that is the fact, the world works on facts, take ur senseless chest thumping somewhere else, i had pro iran sentitments before i joined this forum but seeing most iranian members shamelessly propogate hate against pakistan has led to to believe other wise....

What the actual FVCK are you even talking about? did i even talk about pakistan? are you delusional?
this is my post:

What i can say is that I'm goddamn proud to be born in this nation who just doesn't give up.

let the haters hate. the facts are clear : these "fake" projects have kept us safe alhamdullilah.

we're not attacked on a daily basis via drone strikes and no one has the balls to violate our territory.

so let it be fake.

you need medical attention bro

 

[Blue In Green]

Overall build quality: Impression about the surface..
This is a brand new German Type-209 delivered in 2017:

Here is one sailing..

I didn't say it was bad all I said is that it's kind of shoddy.

 

[PeeD]

I would wait till it fly.

Its too strange to be commented at this time.

 

[The SC]

I didn't say it was bad all I said is that it's kind of shoddy.

I did understand that, and said it was an impression like when you look at the Type-209 image I have posted..

I would wait till it fly.

Its too strange to be commented at this time.

Dahqan said it will fly in 2018..