Put pressure on India to talk to us-Pakistan

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I would say, only pakistan is making the claim and not the world nations, and LTTE was not a terrorist organisation when it started its journey and when allegedly india supported it, india have itself rectified its alledged mistake by supporting srilanka by sending in IPKF to srilanka. And india did send in its troops to 1971 and it was an open war, nothing to hide about it, you call our intervention in bangladesh a terrorist activity and still term the support you give to kashmiri terrorist as a support for freedom struggle that is an irony. And imo situation in kashmir is a direct result of your intervention, but situation in bangladesh was neccsiated due to the actions committed by pakistan.

So your claim india supports terrosim in other nations is totaly baseless.

Kashmir is disputed territory - and the insurgency and Pakistan's support for it arose after India essentially shut the doors on resolving the dispute by looking at the status quo as the solution.

East Pakistan was not disputed, and was an internal political dispute we would have resolved had it not been for Indian intervention and invasion (long before the millions of refugees excuse).

And whether you ended support for the LTTE or not, the fact is that you (created?) were supporting them for a while, and that group turned into the deadliest terrorist organization in the world.

 

[humblehobbes]

Kashmir is disputed territory - and the insurgency and Pakistan's support for it arose after India essentially shut the doors on resolving the dispute by looking at the status quo as the solution.

East Pakistan was not disputed, and was an internal political dispute we would have resolved had it not been for Indian intervention and invasion (long before the millions of refugees excuse).

And whether you ended support for the LTTE or not, the fact is that you (created?) were supporting them for a while, and that group turned into the deadliest terrorist organization in the world.

Point 1 : Afghan Mujahideen drains the blood out of the USSR. Same time, Pakistan decides its time to use the tools against India. Wonders how come it took close to 40 years to realize that India wanted to maintain Status Quo.. And that in no way justifies covert and overt terrorism by Pakistan.

Point 2 : Internal Political Dispute would have been resolved is it? Well, you took your time. It affected India and a step had to be taken. and what do u mean Invasion? The invasion itself was restricted to East Pakistan. Considering that United Pakistan lost half its territory and Population, India was in a very good position to make mince meat of the West Pakistan Sector too... You might want to enquire as to why West Pakistan was not invaded. (pls dont tell me that it was the burly Pathan and Punjabi soldiers on West Pakistan scared the balls out of the Indians) ! Perhaps you dint realize that the so called Invasion was restricted only to the "troublesome" area and not directed at West Pakistan. Had it been that way, It would have atleast made clear as to who is the boss between India and Pakistan. (It could have swung either way)

Point 3 : Did u know that LTTE was blacklisted by India as early as 1990's and All possible assistance was provided to Srilanka to thwart the menace? India made a wrong move and made up for it. You cannot use this argument every time, there is a blame about Kashmir Terrorism. Argument looks pretty silly if the intention of bringing the LTTE was to justify Kashmir terrorism. the 2 are not equal. India realized the mistake and made up for it. I dont see it happening in your side of the border.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Point 1 : Afghan Mujahideen drains the blood out of the USSR. Same time, Pakistan decides its time to use the tools against India. Wonders how come it took close to 40 years to realize that India wanted to maintain Status Quo.. And that in no way justifies covert and overt terrorism by Pakistan.

There was no covert or overt terrorism against India - Pakistan's focus was that the freedom fighters engage Indian security forces occupying the territory, a legitimate target.

Point 2 : Internal Political Dispute would have been resolved is it? Well, you took your time. It affected India and a step had to be taken. and what do u mean Invasion? The invasion itself was restricted to East Pakistan. Considering that United Pakistan lost half its territory and Population, India was in a very good position to make mince meat of the West Pakistan Sector too... You might want to enquire as to why West Pakistan was not invaded. (pls dont tell me that it was the burly Pathan and Punjabi soldiers on West Pakistan scared the balls out of the Indians) ! Perhaps you dint realize that the so called Invasion was restricted only to the "troublesome" area and not directed at West Pakistan. Had it been that way, It would have atleast made clear as to who is the boss between India and Pakistan. (It could have swung either way)

We took our time? Is there an internationally accepted arbitrary time under which Pakistan was supposed to resolve the political issues? How does this international time standard for resolving domestic political issues apply in terms of India's North East States then?

And India was interfering in East Pakistan and long before 'millions of refugees started to pour in'. And sorry, but the argument that India did not invade West Pakistan is supposed to be some sort of 'restraint' or favor (you would not have succeeded even if you had tried in any case) is ludicrous. India supported terrorists in East Pakistan, destabilized it and then used the destabilization it had a hand in to prepare for war and invade East Pakistan and break it apart -that is by far the largest and most obvious example of fomenting state sponsored terrorism in South Asia in history.

Point 3 : Did u know that LTTE was blacklisted by India as early as 1990's and All possible assistance was provided to Srilanka to thwart the menace? India made a wrong move and made up for it. You cannot use this argument every time, there is a blame about Kashmir Terrorism. Argument looks pretty silly if the intention of bringing the LTTE was to justify Kashmir terrorism. the 2 are not equal. India realized the mistake and made up for it. I dont see it happening in your side of the border.

Don't care that it was blacklisted after the fact - India was responsible for creating and supporting the worlds deadliest terrorist organization, that caused enormous casualties in Sri Lanka.

And yes, Pakistan is working to restrain both the Taliban and the Kashmir groups, the proof of which lies in the fact that the GoI is thinking about removing tens of thousands of troops from Kashmir, and has itself argued that infiltration is down to record lows and Kashmir is largely peaceful and stable.

In any case - back to topic please - talks between India and Pakistan.

 

[humblehobbes]

Reply 1:
After the Simla convention, this kind of Legitimate support to Terrorism is literally a slap on the Indian face and you still want talks between India and Pakistan? Your point is that, terrorism in Kashmir is justifiable, but at the same time, India must sit in for talks. try telling this aloud and let me know if you do that without laughter.

Reply 2:
Internationally recognized/accepted arbitrary time is one where the spillover effects of your internal brouhahas dont affect the immediate neighbourhood. If it happens, the affected person/country has to do something to lessen the damage.
Also this(1971) is the largest example of state sponsored genocide, which resulted in the the largest and most obvious efforts of a country having to liberate the oppressed Millions of another country, without resorting to the usual cloak and dagger stuff.

Reply 3: Mistake and Remedy is there in LTTE case. I don't see that in LET/JEM case. There is not enough proof to do that!! although the ISI must have tons of files and transactions which can make these guys to be put to death a thousand times over. If Pakistan's fight against LET / JEM is true, why is there so much foot dragging in Mumbai 26/11 case

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Reply 1:
After the Simla convention, this kind of Legitimate support to Terrorism is literally a slap on the Indian face and you still want talks between India and Pakistan? That is your point is that terrorism in Kashmir is justifiable, but at the same time, India must sit in for talks. try telling this aloud and let me know if you do that without laughter.

Pakistan did not support terrorism - that is the point. And India has no room to talk about 'slap in the face after Simla' given that it invaded Siachen in 1984 in blatant violation of Simla.

The problem with many Indians is that they refuse to see that their own country has wronged Pakistan and supported terrorism in Pakistan, and choose to just whine about their own problems as if they are as pure as the driven snow.

Until you let go of that mentality and acknowledge your faults there will not be peace and reconciliation in South Asian.

Reply 2:
Internationally recognized team is one, where the spillover effects of your internal brouhahas dont affect the immediate neighbourhood. If it happens, the affected person/country has to do something to lessen the damage.
This is the largest example of state sponsored genocide, which resulted in the the largest and most obvious efforts of a country having to liberate the oppressed Millions, without resorting to the usual cloak and dagger stuff.

The thing is that there is zilch, zero, nada evidence of 'genocide' or even hundreds of thousands killed and raped by the PA. On the other hand we have Indian analysts, former bureaucrats officials etc. admitting to Indian intervention and destabilization of East Pakistan.

Had India not been destabilizing and covertly intervening in East Pakistan before the refugees flooded in, you might have had an argument that 'the refugees made us do it', though even that is a weak excuse.

If India was really concerned about the impact of instability in East Pakistan, it should have helped Pakistan put down the rebellion (instead of supporting it) and assisted in political talks between the various factions.

Reply 3: Mistake and Remedy is there in LTTE case. I don't see that in LET/JEM case. There is not enough proof to do that!! although the ISI must have tons of files and transactions which can make these guys to be put to death a thousand times over

There might be general information on their attacks on Indian security forces, but we are not going to hang them for that. And I think it is rather silly to think that every attack or action in the field by insurgents has some sort of record in Pakistan.

The masterminds in Mumbai have been arrested and are on trial, and cross-LoC infiltration is negligible. Pakistan is playing its part and restraining the Kashmir focused groups.

 

[sensenreason]

Jihad has failed, everything now depends on project "Karachi"...

Agreed...Whats Karachi?

 

[humblehobbes]

I dont understand how you would want Indians to accept their faults, when you keep on insisting that Pakistanis have always been as pure as the driven snow. Has the state of Pakistan or atleast you in a personal capacity accepted to the wrong doings of your country? Nay, instead u started a thread demanding an apology or something for the actions of Indira Gandhi

December 16. Fall of Dhaka and formation of Bangladesh. Suggest you ask some Bangla members here about the Zilch Evidence which you are talking about.

I dont even want to talk about the Last point of yours. Denial of the highest order.

 

[humblehobbes]

One more thing.. You never bothered to check the key points in my reply. see if you can do that.. going for dinner nw..

 

[SMC]

The same can be said about Balochistan and the sovereign aspirations of the Balochi people ..... dating back to Partition and the formation of the Pakistani state.

It is a little surprising for me Ahsan that as a Pakistani you seem to be more bothered about the plight of Indians than your own unhappy and suppressed compatriots.

Cheers, Doc

You're not seeing the difference here. Balochistan is not claimed by india as its part. There are many non-Kashmiri communities in india as well who are in the same situation as the Balochis or worse. Pakistan wants nothing to do with those communities either. Really, the oppressing and lack of freedom is the beginning of the problem.

 

[Nihat]

Kashmir is disputed territory - and the insurgency and Pakistan's support for it arose after India essentially shut the doors on resolving the dispute by looking at the status quo as the solution.

Fair enough , but you've seen that over a period of 20 years the Armed insurgency has not worked , all it has bought to Kashmir is violence , bloodshed , Army (that is never pleasent) , suspicision , discrimination , human rights violations , economic backwardness , poverty , political instability and neglect.

Some of these insurgencies have now bevome too big to control and with or without state support are looking to target the Indian mainland and slaughter innocent people in the name of Islam.

This has to be stopped , musharaff took some steps but more is needed

 

[vsdoc]

No reply from Taimi means Pakistan does not want to talk to India .... which suits India fine, cause history has it that Pakistan is at its most dangerous devious best when its in a "peace talkative" mood.

Anyways, this particular post is for my other favorite Pakistani friend, AgnosticMuslim, with his encyclopedic knowledge of UN resolutions.

Dear AM,

Forget Nehru, and Shastri, and Indira, and Rajiv, forget Yahya, and Bhutto, and Zia, and Benazir .... they are ALL dead. We are still alive. India and Pakistan are still alive.

Like 1947 when our country was divided, forget 1971 when yours was. It is history. You cannot reverse the hands of the clock. Let us try and hold on to what we still hold, lest history repeat itself.

Forget the US and Russia and China and the UN ..... they are not going to resolve this conflict. We are. Cause we have the most to lose (the resident Indians and Pakistanis that is).

Are you under the impression that either country gives two hoots for UN resolutions when they are not conducive to their respective current stands?

Are you under the impression that there is ANY chance of India being isolated or buckling to international pressure (if at all) from the UN or the US, and giving in to anything that it does not want to?

Are you under the impression that Pakistan holds ANY ace - financial, or political, or military, or jihadi (I use the term loosely to denote ALL pakistani meddling in India) to force India's hand on ANYTHING? Or which cannot be rained down on you tenfold, a hundredfold by us, should we choose to?

If the answer to all of the above is a resounding NO ..... then where does that leave you? What do you plan to keep doing about Kashmir .... ad infinitum? Forget Kashmir, we will soon be a permanent reality on your Western border too.

You are fighting for something you will never get. You stand to lose a lot more which you hold by the skin of your teeth, but which was never really yours.

You want to talk? Lets say we meet you midway. Where do we start?

Talk to me, an Indian living in the today, as a Pakistani living in the today. Not as a UN historian from the last century.

Come to the table AM. Bring some of your best minds here with you. I am sure I have enough good Indian brains here to back me up.

That is if you are really serious about solving anything ..... in the here and now.

Online would be a start. We would represent a microsm of the reality that is the macro reality ..... but it would be a good start.

No umpire. No referee. No deleting of posts unless they are personally offensive or racial or religious.

Game?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Spitfighter]

If the current trend in Pakistan is anything to go by, they will have no choice but to learn to live with the status quo. Our leaders, experts, you name em's couldn't come up with anything in 60 years, so there is no 'final solution'. India wants to maintain the status quo and I believe that it is more likely now than it ever has been.

America is not ready to lose in Afghanistan, they will use every trick in the book to ensure that Pakistan clamps down hard on the Afghan Taliban. I'm certain that they will have their way, by hook or by crook. Obviously, this has far reaching implications for Pakistan. They cannot sit on the fence forever and whatever side they choose (i.e NATO or otherwise) India stands to gain.

IMO Pakistan has a long, long fight ahead of it and Desi babus are champions at stone walling. What India needs to do is implement a working arrangement with every major political faction in Kashmir, stonewall Pakistan, and wait it out. The war in Afghanistan & Pakistan will almost certainly intensify, when it does India can make a few concessions economic, diplomatic etc (face saving measures essentially) and come up with some sort of 'peace treaty'. At least for now we should seek to reduce Kashmir to a purely diplomatic squabble and shift our focus to more pressing issues like the economy, which I'm sure the Pakistanis will agree to given their present economic situation.

There can be no groundbreaking agreement, we have been at war (hot/cold) for over 60 years. A real, acceptable solution can only come about after years, perhaps decades of cooperation and trust.

I'm completely open to new ideas, but this is the only way I think it'll work. I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable members can come up with something more comprehensive. This should be rather interesting, for once we can focus on the issue instead of pointing fingers.

 

[croptikal]

If the current trend in Pakistan is anything to go by, they will have no choice but to learn to live with the status quo. Our leaders, experts, you name em's couldn't come up with anything in 60 years, so there is no 'final solution'. India wants to maintain the status quo and I believe that it is more likely now than it ever has been.

The truth is that Indian leaders have been prone to make 'sacrifices' in their quest to be 'stateman'. That is one reason why Pakistani leadership pushes for talks with India. So, the 'final solution' was on cards several times, infact, as recently as MMS-Musharraf era. But 26/11 changed the equation completely. Before that our(Indian) public was vulnerable to emotional appeal of united sub-continent. But after the recent metro attacks by Indian Mujahideen and 26/11, the majority seems to have removed all such dreams and hopes.

America is not ready to lose in Afghanistan, they will use every trick in the book to ensure that Pakistan clamps down hard on the Afghan Taliban. I'm certain that they will have their way, by hook or by crook. Obviously, this has far reaching implications for Pakistan. They cannot sit on the fence forever and whatever side they choose (i.e NATO or otherwise) India stands to gain.

Well put. Failure is just not an option for Nobel-winner Obama or democrats. Already the republicans are gaining ground.

IMO Pakistan has a long, long fight ahead of it and Desi babus are champions at stone walling. What India needs to do is implement a working arrangement with every major political faction in Kashmir, stonewall Pakistan, and wait it out. The war in Afghanistan & Pakistan will almost certainly intensify, when it does India can make a few concessions economic, diplomatic etc (face saving measures essentially) and come up with some sort of 'peace treaty'. At least for now we should seek to reduce Kashmir to a purely diplomatic squabble and shift our focus to more pressing issues like the economy, which I'm sure the Pakistanis will agree to given their present economic situation.

No, Pakistani leadership will not agree to such things. Their focus is on Kashmir firmly. They view everything through Kashmir only. India needs to make no concessions whatsoever. Our leadership can continue to say platitudes like 'Pakistan's stability is important for India'.

There can be no groundbreaking agreement, we have been at war (hot/cold) for over 60 years. A real, acceptable solution can only come about after years, perhaps decades of cooperation and trust.

Good observation.

 

[Spitfighter]

No, Pakistani leadership will not agree to such things. Their focus is on Kashmir firmly. They view everything through Kashmir only. India needs to make no concessions whatsoever. Our leadership can continue to say platitudes like 'Pakistan's stability is important for India'.

True, but that's today. Pakistan cannot afford to keep up the confrontation forever, its as simple as that, definitely not with the way things are going. The bottom line is that no one wants to have an enemy at their doorstep, a hostile and weak Pakistan is definitely not in our interest, but a hostile India isn't in theirs either.

They might never accept our stand on Kashmir, which is absolutely fine, but I think they realize how severely limited their options are at this point. They are diplomatically isolated (more or less), economically weak, the military is engaged in an all out war, and its no secret that Pakistan lacks the resources to sustain the war (i.e dependence on the coalition).

Pakistan will never be able to force India's hand on anything and all the mujhahideen under the sun can't change that. Furthermore even in her present state India can perpetuate the status quo indefinitely. Its clear at this point that Kashmir cannot be solved militarily.

India, America and the rest of the world will eventually be able to persuade Pakistan to not view its relationship with India as a zero sum game, not only does our future depend on it, Afghanistan's does too. IMO Pakistan is starting to realize that more and more everyday (IPI pipeline for example), economically speaking there is a tremendous amount of untapped potential.

If a few concessions (economic, diplomatic face savers) can get the ball rolling, if we can deal with each other without Kashmir looming large over our heads then we would have taken the first real step towards truly resolving the issue. In the short term, this is what we should shoot for, we can't solve a decades old conflict just by 'talking'.

 

[vsdoc]

Do you know what is happening today as we debate and discuss?

India is cementing its position in Afghanistan.

The future sops from India to Pakistan to get the ball rolling and show neighbourly goodwill, will come from and on their Western flank.

Like the US, and other superpowers, India too has learnt the tenets of power projection, and moving the frontline away from its own borders.

If I want to fight someone, I will call him out away from my front doorstep ..... and take the fight to his backdoor courtyard.

Of course I will do this after arming my home to the teeth and heavily fortifying my own front door.

Which is exactly what we are doing today.

Comments, opinions .....

Cheers, Doc