Put pressure on India to talk to us-Pakistan

[SMC]

RAW seems to be better in this regard, if the allegations of Pakistanis are true.

What ISI did and what RAW are doing are two distinct things. I talked about this in another thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...ars-india-any-interference-balochistan-3.html

 

[croptikal]

Distinction: TTP are mostly Pakistani, ISI trained Afghans mostly. TTP are mostly in it for the money, Afghan Taliban are in it for fight against occupation. This should really dispel the myth propagated by indians.

ISI trained not only the Afghans but many other nationals who came to Astan to fight jihad against the soviets. It included many Pakistanis from NWFP. Even today there is a large presence of foreign nationals(Eg: Tajiks and Uzbeks) in NWFP near durand line who have not left after the Soviet defeat. The truth is PA is fighting those with whom it has worked in the past. Some of the ex-PA are helping the Talibs in tactics against the PA. Some of the officers and Brig.s sympathise with TTP and do not consider it an enemy. They are miffed with PA's leadership for bending over backwards to please US.

 

[ssheppard]

Really, I am wondering if you're intentionally trying to troll. I did not post any question in the other topic, I simply replied to your terrorism sympathizing in the other topic. You're doing the same thing in this topic, and I am suggesting you do that where you were already doing it.

Fine then ...lets get back to the topic......

Why does Pakistan want to talk to India ...when all both sides have to do is throw allegations and counter allegations on each other....

What has changed that has made Pakistan ask world community to put pressure on India to speak to Pakistan.......

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

These so called Ideological Wars are fed from the social fabric....now tell me ....if India is busy =building schools, hospitals, and roads....who benefits....the community....and if the community sees that India has been there as a helping hand......will the society let these so called Ideological warriors...attack the feeding hand.....

Society only retaliates if they don't get their fair share of amenities......and if thats dome by India ...the social support will be there with India....the problem with Russia and US is that they came there and attacked...they never built anything...they just came and attacked..captured land...and took advantage of the land......and India is not doing that.....so India will have support.

But in the civil war (if US leaves) India will have no place to hide (without its own army) from two nations fight (Puston (Sunni)and non Puston (Shia)) which can never live together and want Kabul.

 

[SMC]

ISI trained not only the Afghans but many other nationals who came to Astan to fight jihad against the soviets. It included many Pakistanis from NWFP. Even today there is a large presence of foreign nationals(Eg: Tajiks and Uzbeks) in NWFP near durand line who have not left after the Soviet defeat.

The distinction still stands. TTP is overwhelmingly Pakistani, Afghan Taliban and Mujhaideen were overwhelmingly Afghan. There might be Pakistanis in Afghan Taliban, but that's still Afghan Taliban.

TTP really started forming after Lal Masjid siege - a very important point. Before that, it was nothing. If ISI would have supported them, they would have existed before that incident. ISI and PA was never a friends of TTP.

The truth is PA is fighting those with whom it has worked in the past. Some of the ex-PA are helping the Talibs in tactics against the PA. Some of the officers and Brig.s sympathise with TTP and do not consider it an enemy. They are miffed with PA's leadership for bending over backwards to please US.

Again, what the truth is is something none of us know. What you're essentially saying is "My truth is PA is...". It's not THE truth, it's the truth for YOU, your opinion. Yes PA has some corrupt people, but by no means its fighting what its created. TTP is a post 9/11 creation ran by individuals who are on RAW's payroll and brainwash people and equip them with arm bought with indian money.

 

[croptikal]

But in the civil war (if US leaves) India will have no place to hide (without its own army) from two nations fight (Puston and non Puston) which can never live together and want Kabul.

IF US LEAVES...

we can discuss such scenarios if and when US actually leaves. US has not left any place that it stationed its armies except perhaps Vietnam.

 

[vsdoc]

Now Pakistan just like India has got two borders to defend....India in the east and Afghanistan in the west....... Looks like India is doing a China with Pakistan.....but the advantage India has is that Indian army has been built from ground up ...against two adversaries....abut Pakistan army has been built to only address one...... so now Pakistan has to put more forces....on both borders....needs more resources...and thus more pressure on Pakistan economy.

I said essentially the same thing in a Afghanistan-India-pakistan war game scenario discussion with Agno some time ago.

Cheers, Doc

 

[ssheppard]

But in the civil war (if US leaves) India will have no place to hide (without its own army) from two nations fight (Puston (Sunni)and non Puston (Shia)) which can never live together and want Kabul.

Well....thats the advantage India will have in the long run...whoever comes in Power....will have to take care of the communities Interest....because if they don't.....the other one will take advantage and overthrow them.....

And having India there for doing some amount of groundwork...towards community building ...and Infrastructure building will keep the community satisfied and Pacified......and if the community wants India and Indian investment in their social fabric....the community in power will have to side with India..whatever the situation may be......


See ...thats the kind of power you have when you look after the society and not look after a religious group.... I like Indian thinkers for that....

 

[SMC]

IF US LEAVES...

we can discuss such scenarios if and when US actually leaves. US has not left any place that it stationed its armies except perhaps Vietnam.

I am willing to bet US will be kicked out Afghanistan like soviets. Surge will result in more activity from Taliban and more attacks on US. The US not leaving any place besides vietnam - this is an insurgency. What was Vietman? You might talk about Iraq - but the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan are not comparable.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

IF US LEAVES...

we can discuss such scenarios if and when US actually leaves. US has not left any place that it stationed its armies except perhaps Vietnam.

In Iraq they are staying in bases only
In Afghanistan if next summer is not good for them and Obama rating goes down because of it they might cut back.

 

[croptikal]

The distinction still stands. TTP is overwhelmingly Pakistani, Afghan Taliban and Mujhaideen were overwhelmingly Afghan. There might be Pakistanis in Afghan Taliban, but that's still Afghan Taliban.

The distinction between these groups is non-existent. The Gen.s who run these gangs are all same people who fought the Soviets. The footsoldiers are recruited and trained everyday, though.

TTP really started forming after Lal Masjid siege - a very important point. Before that, it was nothing. If ISI would have supported them, they would have existed before that incident. ISI and PA was never a friends of TTP.

After Lal Masjid, TTP and ISI became rivals. Till then ISI was comfortable with TTP. TTP did have presence before Lal Masjid, but it viewed PA as an ally at that time. Musharraf succumbed to pressure and acted on Lal Masjid in a harsh manner that angered and alienated TTP.

TTP is a post 9/11 creation ran by individuals who are on RAW's payroll and brainwash people and equip them with arm bought with indian money.

Thats an allegation. There has been no evidence so far to substantiate the claim. And as long as there is no evidence in public, one has to treat these claims as false. Innocent until proven guilty...

 

[croptikal]

In Afghanistan if next summer is not good for them and Obama rating goes down because of it they might cut back.

Obama's ratings would go down seriously if he loses the war after putting so many resources in it. Republicans will portray Obama as whimp who lost the war because he did not have the stomach to take hard decisions.

Obama has no choice but to stay and win the war. The terms and conditions of a win will be chosen by the Obama, but he needs a facesaver. All the deadlines mentioned by Obama are subject to this condition.

 

[vsdoc]

While India gains influence on both sides of Pakistan virtually locking it from all sides with Pak Ocuppied Kashmir being the only left over route.

Exactly. Have discussed this too in my war game discussion with Agno.

I believe otherwise ..... that *** will be not be the open route for long ..... and would in fact be the tactical land bridge for outflanking pakistan and cutting them off from their big brother China.

Cheers, Doc

 

[SMC]

The distinction between these groups is non-existent. The Gen.s who run these gangs are all same people who fought the Soviets. The footsoldiers are recruited and trained everyday, though.

Again mistaken. TTP and Afghan Taliban are in fact enemies of each other. If you know the demographics of where TTP come from and whom they are surrounded by, you'll realize that they are ran by different individuals. TTP have very little to do with the Afghan Mujhaideen unlike Afghan Taliban.

After Lal Masjid, TTP and ISI became rivals. Till then ISI was comfortable with TTP. TTP did have presence before Lal Masjid, but it viewed PA as an ally at that time. Musharraf succumbed to pressure and acted on Lal Masjid in a harsh manner that angered and alienated TTP.

Again, I doubt that. PA was holding regular operations against TTP even before Lal Masjid. TTP was really not strong enough pre-lal masjid. Lal-masjid gave them reason to rally support.

Thats an allegation. There has been no evidence so far to substantiate the claim. And as long as there is no evidence in public, one has to treat these claims as false. Innocent until proven guilty...

Ok, fair enough. I got reason to believe it as insiders within the ISI and PA have said that there is heavy evidence of indian involvement.

 

[croptikal]

Exactly. Have discussed this too in my war game discussion with Agno.

I believe otherwise ..... that *** will be not be the open route for long ..... and would in fact be the tactical land bridge for outflanking pakistan and cutting them off from their big brother China.

Cheers, Doc

Yep, *** will have to be closed as a route for Chinese. Also *** can link India to Astan directly.