Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[RIP Pak LAW]

2022 for a 5th Generation fighter is very ambitious target line keeping current capability of PAF in mind or perhaps we have been working/collaborating with Chinese behind the doors for quite some time now. Also this perhaps might be the reason that we are not opting for 4.5 Generation fighter plane now despite of so much fuss. Btw there is a possibility that he might be misquoted here. With 2022 he actually meant prototype not serial production.

 

[The Eagle]

So how the arrangements will be?

Keep reading this space. You will be enlightened accordingly.

 

[Basel]

Concept is one thing, but developing engine, radar, material, codes from scratch for a 5th gen aircraft, in 5 years is just too much. And serial production, really, one cant even make a prototype in that period. Even if you are planning for Chinese aircraft or collaboration, I dont see anything concrete coming out before 2028, realistically speaking. Either Pakistan has got something big under its sleeve or the ACM is just bluffing for reasons known to him.

Its not difficult to built 5th gen F-35 for LM as they already knew how to built those due to F-22 experience, as most tech was already available, compare to Boeing or other aircraft manufacturer that is why they got F-35 deal, same here for CAC.

It's tough to say.

There's value on both points:

1. FC-31 is closest to fruition, the PAF can get a FGF in the mid-2020s and early-2030s

2. But there's the Aviation Design Institute which is explicitly tasked to "design" a FGF. The CAS said 60% of its staff are civilian. The CAS also said that the PAF is thinking about "beyond" 5th-gen. Does any of that sound like the statements of someone who is just going to import the FC-31? They could literally have said that the Chinese have advanced considerably and that they'll procure a state-of-the-art 5th-gen fighter off-the-shelf, like they had for the Hangor (II) submarines or even Chinese frigates.

When I posted here that PAF ACM talked about 5.5gen bird people trolled here, PAF is looking beyond 5th gen as they believed that tech have evolved since 1997and in 2025 it will be very different landscape in terms of tech so they want to have bird which can be used for next 40-50 years in future.

 

[beijingwalker]

Chinese media: Pakistan and China will co produce fifth gen fighters, build joint space programs and send Pakistani astronauts to the space stations, confirmed by Pakistani general.
http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2017-12-09/doc-ifypnyqi2587872.shtml

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Why...the surprise?

If people had been paying attention... there were many hints and statements made in the past by different PAF Officials.... the MoU for developing a stealth fighter was signed way back.

CAC had been homebase for PAC/PAF engineers and technicians... there is even a halal restaurant in Chengdu....

Besides what would be difficulty when two stealth fighters from the strategic ally are already flying... one operational... a lot of technologies are available and mature.

So PAC/PAF would not be inventing any new wheels.... the design agencey of Pak had/has a lot of exposure in CAC and building a JF has so many benefits on different levels... that building a NGF is not that much of a quantum leap.

Block3 is going to have a lot of tech which will also find its way in the PAF NGF... so in essence PAC is building upon a 4.5 Gen fighter mantufacturing experience.

PAC engineers were involved in the design phase of JF as well... so experience is there.

Besides, PAC shall not be producing a F22 but a NGF in the context of South/South West Asia... things need to be seen in the proper perspective.

Great going... without a doubt the stated timeframe will be met... a few moths of delay notwithstanding.

For all intents and purposes the design would have been already finalised sometime back already... and if the rumours of CAC working on a single engine stealth fighter have any flesh on bones....well, well... here comes the PAF Chief's statement.

So let the process of awaiting start again... remember when the JF news came out?

Funny how Circle always Completes Itself!

 

[Dash]

Keep reading this space. You will be enlightened accordingly.

I was looking for some information beforehand. Anyways looks like I have read.

 

[soundwave1987]

Prototype in 2022？I'm thinking about a J-20 variant. FC-31 is already a prototype, and the scedule is too tight for a brand new 5 gen plane. The biggest possibility could be a customized J-20 with WS-15 on-board. Tha's the only reasonale time scheme.

 

[araz]

Prototype in 2022？I'm thinking about a J-20 variant. FC-31 is already a prototype, and the scedule is too tight for a brand new 5 gen plane. The biggest possibility could be a customized J-20 with WS-15 on-board. Tha's the only reasonale time scheme.

Possible and makes sense. Please look at the picture on the project which points towards a canard platform and may well be a j20 off shoot. However the rumours are there for a single engined stealth platform and I suspect we may have an acquisition of 2 squadrons in 2023(maybe in small batches if price unmanageable) giving us some breathing space followed by a single engined platform which will have input from us and may well be built locally.
Time frame wise it would only make sense if we acquire something in 2023-25 bracket followed by our own endeavour in 2028/30. This would not give our adversaries the qualitative edge they are looking for or at least keep the deterrence level manageable.
A

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

“Turkish Avionics”, I am not sure I would bet on that if I were pakistanis, turkey has never even made a low end fighter must less to be considered to have “turkish avionics”.

You better not for it's awfully against your wishes!!!

 

[beijingwalker]

PAKISTAN COLLABORATING WITH CHINA ON NEXT-GEN FIGHTER

Daily News
Dec 7, 2017

In the inaugural session of AirTech ’17, a conference being held at Air University in Islamabad, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman stated that China is supporting Pakistan’s efforts to develop a next-generation fighter, a satellite program and a manned space mission.

“Pakistan is engaged with Chinese experts in manufacturing the next generation aircraft”, Aman told the audience, adding, “China is also providing technical assistance for launching the satellite programme.”

Under “Project Azm” the PAF is seeking to develop its own 5th-generation fighter. Besides having a system to support its future requirements, Project Azm is envisaged to steer Pakistan towards greater autonomy in domestically sourcing big-ticket defence systems and expanding Pakistan’s aviation industry.

Having formally launched Project Azm in July, ACM Aman provided additional details of the project, such as 60% of its workforce comprising of civilians and that “it will take five years to initiate the production” of the aircraft (Dawn News).

Under Project Azm, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex’s (PAC) Aviation Design Institute (AvDI) was tasked to develop a medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV). ACM Aman outlined that the AvDI MALE UAV will also be produced in 18 months.

Reiterating upon his prior statements of building Pakistan’s domestic industry base and reducing its need for foreign suppliers, ACM Aman reportedly told the audience at AirTech ’17 that the PAF will source the bulk of its weapon systems from Pakistan by 2020.

In addition to Project Azm, the CAS revealed that China was also assisting Pakistan in space development.

Besides assisting Pakistan in satellite development – e.g. the Pakistan Remote Sensing Satellite (PRSS-1) earth-observation satellite due to launch in March 2018 – ACM Aman announced that China will assist in sending Pakistani astronauts into space in the next two years.

Notes & Comments:

Regarding the CAS’ statement of the Project Azm 5th-generation fighter (FGF) entering production in five years, it is unclear if the CAS was referring to serial production or the production of a prototype. However, the notion of PAC collaborating with China on the program was to be expected following the relationship built as a result of the JF-17 Thunder program, which is the mainstay fighter of the PAF fighter fleet.

In its July piece discussing the launch of Project Azm and the Kamra Aviation City initiative, Quwa stated:

In some respects, the PAF’s messaging regarding the FGF, AvDI and the Kamra Aviation City seems to point towards an original design effort. However, unless the PAF wants to repeat the arrangement in place for the JF-17 (such as China being responsible for engine integration and testing or manufacturing JF-17 prototypes), it would need to make capital investment in aviation development infrastructure in Pakistan. Besides cost, time will also be required to build requisite human resources … to undertake the continual development work.

Although the Kamra Aviation City has ambitious goals, Pakistan will likely seek overseas support, and this would be a factor in any originally designed fighter. Given the political and economic realities, Pakistan’s principal partner in this endeavour would be China.

Pakistan could accelerate its process by essentially procuring the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) FC-31 off-the-shelf with a deep level of transfer-of-technology for local production and customization. In 2016, SAC began testing the second FC-31 prototype, which exhibits numerous changes to the original FC-31’s design, such as revised vertical stabilizers and forward fuselage. The FC-31 is being designed with the export market in mind. In 2015, the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) committed to bringing the FC-31 to full operational capability (FOC) by 2024. This would be a risk-averse avenue, one that could see the PAF acquire a potent strike and maritime-capable solution through the 2020s.

The alternate scenario would be for PAC to continue its ties with Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) and to co-develop another FGF design. While this would come later than the FC-31, the PAF could steer it as a long-term solution for replacing the JF-17 from the 2030s (the oldest JF-17s will be 20 years of age by then) and organically build design, research and development (R&D) capacities with China’s support. The PAF’s decision to establish AvDI – an entity specializing in aerospace design and development work – indicates a willingness to embrace an original design program instead of acquiring the FC-31 off-the-shelf.

The other aspect that could suggest an original design is Pakistan’s aspiration to export big-ticket defence items, including combat aircraft. While a capital-heavy investment, commissioning a new program would see Pakistan own (like it does with the JF-17) workshare and a portion of the profit of third-party sales. It would be premature to dismiss the possibility of AVIC allowing Pakistan to join the FC-31 as a partner if it compensates AVIC for some of the development cost. However, the original development route will see the state’s expenditure feed Pakistan’s own design and R&D efforts, which would help with maturation in the effort and generate valuable intellectual property for use in Project Azm and future programs.

Regarding the AvDI UAV, it is worth noting that Pakistan has not availed existing off-the-shelf options such as the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC) CH-5 and/or CH-4, Turkish Aerospace Industries’ (TAI) Anka or CAC Wing Loong. The PAF has not released its required parameters for MALE UAVs, but existing off-the-shelf options occupy a diverse range of capabilities. The TAI Anka, CASC CH-4 and CASC CH-5 have payload capacities of 200 kg, 345 kg and 1,200 kg, respectively.

From cost management, risk mitigation, design evolution (based on Pakistan’s prior UAV development efforts) and technology (e.g. propulsion) access standpoints, one could plausibly expect the AvDI UAV to mirror the specifications of the TAI Anka and CASC CH-4. In fact, the Pakistani armed forces have refrained from importing the Anka and CH-4, despite both being offered and noticeable upgrades over existing UAV-based surveillance and targeted-strike assets in the Falco and CH-3A-based Burraq, respectively. Pakistan could be intending to acquire analogous capabilities domestically through the AvDI MALE UAV.

https://quwa.org/2017/12/07/pakistan-collaborating-with-china-on-next-gen-fighter/

This is the Chinese media's report
http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2017-12-09/doc-ifypnyqi2587872.shtml

 

[Viking 63]

First prototype in 2022-2025 IOC will be 2030-2035 timeframe i would say

I hope you are right. But still very ambitious time frame.

 

[Dash]

Prototype in 2022？I'm thinking about a J-20 variant. FC-31 is already a prototype, and the scedule is too tight for a brand new 5 gen plane. The biggest possibility could be a customized J-20 with WS-15 on-board. Tha's the only reasonale time scheme.

Good

 

[Ultima Thule]

I hope you are right. But still very ambitious time frame.

Not alone but with a help of friendly countries like China, turkey , Ukraine, south Africa , Italy etc etc

The biggest possibility could be a customized J-20 with WS-15 on-board.

least chance for PAF in near future

 

[messiach]

Cat is out @Quwa

 

[Blue Marlin]

Cat is out @Quwa

is it jf-17 based or j31 based?