Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Armchair]

Hi @MastanKhan IRST's are passive, so that's an interesting technology. Even LPI radars are not likely to remain undetectable for long - they already aren't actually with some of the latest equipment out there.

Imagine an anti-stealth fighter with 3 IRSTs embedded on the nose. Maybe no radar needed at all. Supported by ground based, mobile, anti-stealth radars and lasers. If the stealth aircraft tries to use the LPI radar, its found. It will have to itself rely on AWACS or other assets. Then they get to about 50 km before the IRST fighter detects the 5th gen, and is able to shoot it down with passive sensors.

Remember, there are BVR IR missiles now...

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi @MastanKhan IRST's are passive, so that's an interesting technology. Even LPI radars are not likely to remain undetectable for long - they already aren't actually with some of the latest equipment out there.

Imagine an anti-stealth fighter with 3 IRSTs embedded on the nose. Maybe no radar needed at all. Supported by ground based, mobile, anti-stealth radars and lasers. If the stealth aircraft tries to use the LPI radar, its found. It will have to itself rely on AWACS or other assets. Then they get to about 50 km before the IRST fighter detects the 5th gen, and is able to shoot it down with passive sensors.

Remember, there are BVR IR missiles now...

Hi,

The thing is that the 5th gen won't come within 50 km range---. With its BVR missiles---it would have already wiped out the opposition---.

The only way to hunt it would be thru its refueller tankers---destroy the tankers---the 5th gen will fall to the ground---.

Other than that---it is all a prayer---.

The 5th gen would also be carrying decoys---that it would launch---the opposition would launch its arsenal at those decoys---thus exposing themselves and running out of ammo---.

See---you are just simply not fighting the enemy's 5th gen aircraft---.

You are fighting the heavies behind them that are loaded with massive massive jamming capabilities---and standoff weapons---then there are others that are the BVR trucks flying behind as well---.

The opposition's HARM missile has almost 100 miles strike range---so the enemy can basically destroy all the ground assets before the 5th gen gets within detection range ---.

So---now you are dealing with HARM missiles with around 100 miles range and standoff weapons with a range of 300-400 miles ready to take out your ground support---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

The thing is that the 5th gen won't come within 50 km range---. With its BVR missiles---it would have already wiped out the opposition---.

The only way to hunt it would be thru its refueller tankers---destroy the tankers---the 5th gen will fall to the ground---.

Other than that---it is all a prayer---.

The 5th gen would also be carrying decoys---that it would launch---the opposition would launch its arsenal at those decoys---thus exposing themselves and running out of ammo---.

See---you are just simply not fighting the enemy's 5th gen aircraft---.

You are fighting the heavies behind them that are loaded with massive massive jamming capabilities---and standoff weapons---then there are others that are the BVR trucks flying behind as well---.

The opposition's HARM missile has almost 100 miles strike range---so the enemy can basically destroy all the ground assets before the 5th gen gets within detection range ---.

So---now you are dealing with HARM missiles with around 100 miles range and standoff weapons with a range of 300-400 miles ready to take out your ground support---.

But how will the Fifth generation detect a passive enemy? It can't use its radar...

Between the operational 5th generation are yet to have a HARM capability. Even if they did (in the future, and many things can happen in the future), the S-400 still outranges them!

You are talking about heavies behind them. Those are easily detected and shot out of the sky. AWACS even now will face LRAAMs that go active when its already too late.

And even if you manage to suicidally launch a few HARMs, the Pantsir would take them out. And assuming a near-peer opponent, you aren't going to get saturated like Syria, where a handful of SAMs were dealing with giant waves of attacks, and there was no meaningful IADS...

What makes you think jamming is a one way street?

 

[MastanKhan]

But how will the Fifth generation detect a passive enemy? It can't use its radar...

Between the operational 5th generation are yet to have a HARM capability. Even if they did (in the future, and many things can happen in the future), the S-400 still outranges them!

You are talking about heavies behind them. Those are easily detected and shot out of the sky. AWACS even now will face LRAAMs that go active when its already too late.

And even if you manage to suicidally launch a few HARMs, the Pantsir would take them out. And assuming a near-peer opponent, you aren't going to get saturated like Syria, where a handful of SAMs were dealing with giant waves of attacks, and there was no meaningful IADS...

What makes you think jamming is a one way street?

Hi,

Why can it not use its aesa radar---?

 

[Shabi1]

Hi,

Why can it not use its aesa radar---?

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/navy/nrtc/14226_ch3.pdf

Stealth is very complicated and if you are stealth you are operating at reduced capability of sensors.
https://defenseissues.net/2017/03/01/defining-stealth/#more-2844

In order to be stealthy you have to control your emissions. Air frame could be stealth but the electronic emissions can be picked up by opponents. Radars be it conventional or AESA all rely on doppler affect, which is transmit and receive signals to calculate distance and heading and these signals can be picked up by opponents. They might not get exact tracking but they will detect your presence.

So in order to be undetectable Submarines, aircrafts and stealth ships have to either turn off or reduce their radar/sonar and communication transmit powers and rely on passive sensors. In presence of friendly AWACs it is advised to be in receiving mode and keep emissions minimum to maximize surprise to opponents. For AG stealth is ideal as you don't want to be detected, drop your ordinance and leave but in AA you would like to keep a watch out and have sensors available.

IRST is a passive technology, and in stealth it will be relied upon most. Also in order to maintain stealth BVR missile usage will be avoided against similar ranged opponents since you have to keep radar off to maintain surprise. WVR IR missiles are your best bet as they use passive tracking. In modern air combat WVR is still the most reliable option because of heavy ECM capability on modern platforms, BVR effectiveness is reduced even for non stealth platforms.

From what I have read on the F-22, for air superiority it has three options either use fire and forget BVR missiles at long ranges and turn away or stay and provide mid course guidance, but this would not be reliable in a ECM environment and against a 4th gen aircraft equipped with countermeasures or decoys, it's also risky. Second is detect it's target from extremely long distances and once it has information it can go silent and use EMCON procedures and IRST for WVR kill. Third is detect at long range and fire BVR missiles then go silent and close in. If BVR missiles have not done the job it could close in using IRST and engage with WVR missiles. Third option sounds best but if you are gainst a capable threat second option is more viable to get surprise advantage.

There is also a possible fourth co op engagement option, which I read on the Gripen C with SAAB Erieye using Link 16 datalink. The Erieye handles targeting and mid course guidance while the Gripen keeps it's radar off and simply acts as delivery platform/truck for the AMRAAM. Get's in close enough to fire the missile and the AWACs handles everything else via a datalink. Possibly available to PAF F-16s. The F-22 can't have this option because it's widely acknowledged that the F-22 can't data link properly with other platforms. Reason being it is unable to get the software updates necessary for it as it's computers are too old and upgrade plans cancelled.
Read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM#Interception_course_stage

This is as per my understanding and what I have read, for explanation purposes could be different but you get the idea. EMCON can be set manually, or it can be set automatically. EMCON 1 is most stealthy, EMCON 5 least stealthy. Normally operating at EMCON 5 but switching down as it gets closer to opponent.

EMCON 1

• Radar is turned off
• AMRAAM is disabled
• IRST] (Infrared Search and track) is primary on board detection system with range of 50 miles. It can be used to target and launch sidewinder air-to-air missiles
• Radar Homing And Warning is on to a range of 50 miles (RHAW warns of enemy radar activity, tracks and then classifies the source type)
• Missile Approach and Warning is on (MAW warns of enemy missile launches)
• The communications radio is prevented from transmitting
• Secure data link is set to receive.

EMCON 2

• Radar is on and is able to id and track air to air targets only
• AMRAAM is disabled, but missile steering information is now displayed in Air-to-air HUD
• the IRST is on with a range of 50 miles
• RHAW is active to a range of 100 miles
• MAW is off
• Communications radio fully on
• IFDL secure data link is set to both send and receive

EMCON 3

• Radar is on and is able to ID, track and target air-to-air contacts
• AMRAAM is now enabled
• IRST active with range of 50 miles
• RHAW active with range of 150 miles
• communications radio is fully active
• MAW is off
• IFDL secure data link is set to both send and receive

EMCON 4

• Radar is on and is able to ID, track and target air-to-air contacts
• AMRAAM is enabled
• The radar is also able to ID, track, and target large ground mobile and ship targets
• IRST is on with range of 50 miles
• MAW is on
• RHAW active with range of 200 miles
• the ability to manually launch drones and chaff is enabled
• communications radio is fully active
• IFDL secure data link is set to both send and receive

EMCON 5

• Radar is on and is able to ID, track and target air-to-air contacts
• AMRAAM is enabled
• The radar is able to ID, track, and target all ground mobile and ship targets. Air To Ground missiles requiring radar for targetting (Harpoon) are enabled for launch
• IRST is active with range of 50 miles
• RHAW active with range of 250 miles
• MAW is fully active. The defensive suite of drones, ECM, chaff and flares is fully enabled
• communications radio is fully active
• IFDL secure data link is set to both send and receive

This is a official document on F-22 SOPs. EMCON procedures is mentioned as a attachment but withheld because of security.
http://govdocs.rutgers.edu/mil/af/AFI11-2F-22AV3.pdf

 

[MastanKhan]

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/navy/nrtc/14226_ch3.pdf

Stealth is very complicated and if you are stealth you are operating at reduced capability of sensors.
https://defenseissues.net/2017/03/01/defining-stealth/#more-2844

In order to be stealthy you have to control your emissions. Air frame could be stealth but the electronic emissions can be picked up by opponents. Radars be it conventional or AESA all rely on doppler affect, which is transmit and receive signals to calculate distance and heading and these signals can be picked up by opponents. They might not get exact tracking but they will detect your presence.

So in order to be undetectable Submarines, aircrafts and stealth ships have to either turn off or reduce their radar/sonar and communication transmit powers and rely on passive sensors. In presence of friendly AWACs it is advised to be in receiving mode and keep emissions minimum to maximize surprise to opponents. For AG stealth is ideal as you don't want to be detected, drop your ordinance and leave but in AA you would like to keep a watch out and have sensors available.

IRST is a passive technology, and in stealth it will be relied upon most. Also in order to maintain stealth BVR missile usage will be avoided against similar ranged opponents since you have to keep radar off to maintain surprise. WVR IR missiles are your best bet as they use passive tracking. In modern air combat WVR is still the most reliable option because of heavy ECM capability on modern platforms, BVR effectiveness is reduced even for non stealth platforms.

From what I have read on the F-22, for air superiority it has three options either use fire and forget BVR missiles at long ranges and turn away or stay and provide mid course guidance, but this would not be reliable in a ECM environment and against a 4th gen aircraft equipped with countermeasures or decoys, it's also risky. Second is detect it's target from extremely long distances and once it has information it can go silent and use EMCON procedures and IRST for WVR kill. Third is detect at long range and fire BVR missiles then go silent and close in. If BVR missiles have not done the job it could close in using IRST and engage with WVR missiles. Third option sounds best but if you are gainst a capable threat second option is more viable to get surprise advantage.

There is also a possible fourth co op engagement option, which I read on the Gripen C with SAAB Erieye using Link 16 datalink. The Erieye handles targeting and mid course guidance while the Gripen keeps it's radar off and simply acts as delivery platform/truck for the AMRAAM. Get's in close enough to fire the missile and the AWACs handles everything else via a datalink. Possibly available to PAF F-16s. The F-22 can't have this option because it's widely acknowledged that the F-22 can't data link properly with other platforms. Reason being it is unable to get the software updates necessary for it as it's computers are too old and upgrade plans cancelled.
Read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM#Interception_course_stage

This is as per my understanding and what I have read, for explanation purposes could be different but you get the idea. EMCON can be set manually, or it can be set automatically. EMCON 1 is most stealthy, EMCON 5 least stealthy. Normally operating at EMCON 5 but switching down as it gets closer to opponent.

EMCON 1

• Radar is turned off
• AMRAAM is disabled
• IRST] (Infrared Search and track) is primary on board detection system with range of 50 miles. It can be used to target and launch sidewinder air-to-air missiles
• Radar Homing And Warning is on to a range of 50 miles (RHAW warns of enemy radar activity, tracks and then classifies the source type)
• Missile Approach and Warning is on (MAW warns of enemy missile launches)
• The communications radio is prevented from transmitting
• Secure data link is set to receive.

EMCON 2

• Radar is on and is able to id and track air to air targets only
• AMRAAM is disabled, but missile steering information is now displayed in Air-to-air HUD
• the IRST is on with a range of 50 miles
• RHAW is active to a range of 100 miles
• MAW is off
• Communications radio fully on
• IFDL secure data link is set to both send and receive

EMCON 3

• Radar is on and is able to ID, track and target air-to-air contacts
• AMRAAM is now enabled
• IRST active with range of 50 miles
• RHAW active with range of 150 miles
• communications radio is fully active
• MAW is off
• IFDL secure data link is set to both send and receive

EMCON 4

• Radar is on and is able to ID, track and target air-to-air contacts
• AMRAAM is enabled
• The radar is also able to ID, track, and target large ground mobile and ship targets
• IRST is on with range of 50 miles
• MAW is on
• RHAW active with range of 200 miles
• the ability to manually launch drones and chaff is enabled
• communications radio is fully active
• IFDL secure data link is set to both send and receive

EMCON 5

• Radar is on and is able to ID, track and target air-to-air contacts
• AMRAAM is enabled
• The radar is able to ID, track, and target all ground mobile and ship targets. Air To Ground missiles requiring radar for targetting (Harpoon) are enabled for launch
• IRST is active with range of 50 miles
• RHAW active with range of 250 miles
• MAW is fully active. The defensive suite of drones, ECM, chaff and flares is fully enabled
• communications radio is fully active
• IFDL secure data link is set to both send and receive

This is a official document on F-22 SOPs. EMCON procedures is mentioned as a attachment but withheld because of security.
http://govdocs.rutgers.edu/mil/af/AFI11-2F-22AV3.pdf

Hi,

Thank you for your post---.

What then it really comes down to is---what will happen when sh-it hits the fan---that is when the truth comes out---.

Knowing what I know about the american weapons industry---how they act and what their mindset is---I can promise people with a guarantee that there is a lot more to what meets the eye.

Even during a combat---we would still not know the true capabilities of the american stealth war machine---because the opposition would not measure up to take the americans to task to its fullest---.

Readers can make whatever judgement they want to from my comments---I am just speaking from my information base---.

 

[Shabi1]

Would like to add a doctrine difference between NATO and Russian BVR engagement.

BVR missile hit probability is greatly reduced if you don't provide mid course guidance as the missile seekers them self have very limited range and power. Staying put and providing mid course guidance is also very risky and almost suicidal if going up against 4th gen opponents.

NATO overcomes it via co-op engagement and assume friendly AWACs will always be available. Russian platforms will often have to operate independently because of it's land mass so it's doctrine involves firing large salvos of BVR missiles to increase kill rate and exiting once launched. Which is the logic behind the flanker series and their large payload and detection capabilities.

In stealth these tactics are somewhat unpractical because you need to keep communications minimum and can't carry too large internal load to fire large missile salvos. But then again if the opponent can't see you they can't hit you so it's still a advantage.

I like the F-16 Block-60 capabilities with this regards. They don't need stealth, carry decoys and a powerful jammer internally and like the Grawler they will go in flat out with their jammers. Every one will know they are there but can't hit them because their targeting systems being jammed.

With US you never know whats up their sleeves, since LR AAMs not as effective they are investing in laser tech. Their successes till now were because they weren't against very capable aerial threats and the fact that they have them self been the storytellers of the conflicts they have been part of so the narratives are in their favor. Russians and Chinese tech has done alot of catching up so future conflict outcomes could be very debatable.

 

[MastanKhan]

Would like to add a doctrine difference between NATO and Russian BVR engagement.

BVR missile hit probability is greatly reduced if you don't provide mid course guidance as the missile seekers them self have very limited range and power. Staying put and providing mid course guidance is also very risky and almost suicidal if going up against 4th gen opponents.

NATO overcomes it via co-op engagement and assume friendly AWACs will always be available. Russian platforms will often have to operate independently because of it's land mass so it's doctrine involves firing large salvos of BVR missiles to increase kill rate and exiting once launched. Which is the logic behind the flanker series and their large payload and detection capabilities.

In stealth these tactics are somewhat unpractical because you need to keep communications minimum and can't carry too large internal load to fire large missile salvos. But then again if the opponent can't see you they can't hit you so it's still a advantage.

I like the F-16 Block-60 capabilities with this regards. They don't need stealth, carry decoys and a powerful jammer internally and like the Grawler they will go in flat out with their jammers. Every one will know they are there but can't hit them because their targeting systems being jammed.

Hi,

Thank you---. Now we are talking---.

The reality is that most militaries will have to cross that first hurdle of super duper F16's and F15's---which they may not---.

Enjoy this video

https://www.facebook.com/

 

[enroger]

Stealth is very complicated and if you are stealth you are operating at reduced capability of sensors.

In order to be stealthy you have to control your emissions. Air frame could be stealth but the electronic emissions can be picked up by opponents. Radars be it conventional or AESA all rely on doppler affect, which is transmit and receive signals to calculate distance and heading and these signals can be picked up by opponents. They might not get exact tracking but they will detect your presence.

So in order to be undetectable Submarines, aircrafts and stealth ships have to either turn off or reduce their radar/sonar and communication transmit powers and rely on passive sensors. In presence of friendly AWACs it is advised to be in receiving mode and keep emissions minimum to maximize surprise to opponents. For AG stealth is ideal as you don't want to be detected, drop your ordinance and leave but in AA you would like to keep a watch out and have sensors available.

IRST is a passive technology, and in stealth it will be relied upon most. Also in order to maintain stealth BVR missile usage will be avoided against similar ranged opponents since you have to keep radar off to maintain surprise. WVR IR missiles are your best bet as they use passive tracking. In modern air combat WVR is still the most reliable option because of heavy ECM capability on modern platforms, BVR effectiveness is reduced even for non stealth platforms.

From what I have read on the F-22, for air superiority it has three options either use fire and forget BVR missiles at long ranges and turn away or stay and provide mid course guidance, but this would not be reliable in a ECM environment and against a 4th gen aircraft equipped with countermeasures or decoys, it's also risky. Second is detect it's target from extremely long distances and once it has information it can go silent and use EMCON procedures and IRST for WVR kill. Third is detect at long range and fire BVR missiles then go silent and close in. If BVR missiles have not done the job it could close in using IRST and engage with WVR missiles. Third option sounds best but if you are gainst a capable threat second option is more viable to get surprise advantage.

There is also a possible fourth co op engagement option, which I read on the Gripen C with SAAB Erieye using Link 16 datalink. The Erieye handles targeting and mid course guidance while the Gripen keeps it's radar off and simply acts as delivery platform/truck for the AMRAAM. Get's in close enough to fire the missile and the AWACs handles everything else via a datalink. Possibly available to PAF F-16s. The F-22 can't have this option because it's widely acknowledged that the F-22 can't data link properly with other platforms. Reason being it is unable to get the software updates necessary for it as it's computers are too old and upgrade plans cancelled.
Read

Good stuffs. However with networking abilities, stealths can have a little more flexible tactics. One classic tactic would be for a pair of 5th gen to operate their radar in alternation: One fighter engage radar to locate and track opponents while the other one get into position silently to get ready for bvr shot. While the enemy knows where the first fighter is due to the emission, the 5th gen is still outside of their detection/track range, all he has to do to stay safe is to switch off the radar go silent while his buddy turn on radar to maintain tracking. The pair can do this all through mid-course guidance for the missile. This way 5th gen can easily engage targets at their maximum range.

 

[Shabi1]

Hi,

Thank you---. Now we are talking---.

The reality is that most militaries will have to cross that first hurdle of super duper F16's and F15's---which they may not---.

Enjoy this video

https://www.facebook.com/

True, those old workhorses are still and will remain to be very relevant. They are practical and effective at what they do.
But politicians have ruined it and not too hopeful about US innovation rate in future, maintaining the same lead that they once enjoyed will be too expensive. Judging how all their recent defense procurement's are progressing commercialism and financial interests have hit them hard. In order to entice funding manufacturing/R&D is too spread out to many states and entities. This trend of outsourcing has increased the cost and cycle time of development. Innovation is quicker and cheaper if you have you concentrated and focused efforts
This means US opponents can achieve the same R&D and manufacturing but at lower costs, which is why they are catching up.

Watch from 0:58. Same approach is for most US current projects.

And just an example of catching up, China deployed rail gun on a ship.
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...military-fires-world-first-revolutionary-rail

Good stuffs. However with networking abilities, stealths can have a little more flexible tactics. One classic tactic would be for a pair of 5th gen to operate their radar in alternation: One fighter engage radar to locate and track opponents while the other one get into position silently to get ready for bvr shot. While the enemy knows where the first fighter is due to the emission, the 5th gen is still outside of their detection/track range, all he has to do to stay safe is to switch off the radar go silent while his buddy turn on radar to maintain tracking. The pair can do this all through mid-course guidance for the missile. This way 5th gen can easily engage targets at their maximum range.

Yes that is co-op engagement . Already available in some 4-4.5 gen friendly aircrafts and AWACs. But the problem is you need datalink to work to provide mid course guidance and it will not happen if there is effective ECM.

 

[enroger]

Hi,

Thank you---. Now we are talking---.

The reality is that most militaries will have to cross that first hurdle of super duper F16's and F15's---which they may not---.

Enjoy this video

https://www.facebook.com/

Damn that's some insane shit, whats the name of the video in English?

 

[Armchair]

Absolutely love the responses and discussion by @Shabi1 and @MastanKhan and others.

I want to note that neither the F-22 nor the F-35 have an IRST.
F-35 has something similar with its EOTS but this does not have the range of a proper IRST.
F-22 has nothing.

Additionally:
There are only 90 odd F-22s that are combat capable left.
CPFH is 70,000 USD around (writing from memory)

F-35 can only fire 2 AAMs. Its main bay is not capable of firing A2A missiles.
The claimed CPFH of F-35 is around 45,000 USD (from memory, approx)

With an equivalent budget, such planes would be outnumbered and outgunned.

If a peer takes out satellites or disables them, and uses heavy EW jamming, the US dependence on the network will become an Achilles heel.

LPI is fast becoming obsolete and detectable. It was always a software change away anyways.

Lasers are here to stay. A major disruptive technology. I saw a post by @Oscar ruing that Pakistan didn't get on board.

Also: Jamming and stealth are complementary. Jamming effectiveness increases with the stealthiness of the airframe.

 

[Shabi1]

Absolutely love the responses and discussion by @Shabi1 and @MastanKhan and others.

I want to note that neither the F-22 nor the F-35 have an IRST.
F-35 has something similar with its EOTS but this does not have the range of a proper IRST.
F-22 has nothing.

Additionally:
There are only 90 odd F-22s that are combat capable left.
CPFH is 70,000 USD around (writing from memory)

F-35 can only fire 2 AAMs. Its main bay is not capable of firing A2A missiles.
The claimed CPFH of F-35 is around 45,000 USD (from memory, approx)

With an equivalent budget, such planes would be outnumbered and outgunned.

If a peer takes out satellites or disables them, and uses heavy EW jamming, the US dependence on the network will become an Achilles heel.

LPI is fast becoming obsolete and detectable. It was always a software change away anyways.

Lasers are here to stay. A major disruptive technology. I saw a post by @Oscar ruing that Pakistan didn't get on board.

Also: Jamming and stealth are complementary. Jamming effectiveness increases with the stealthiness of the airframe.

Thanks for the correction. IRST on F-22 was axed due to budget constraints but some sites claim it could get it as a upgrade. You are right, it doesnt have it right now and it's uncertain if it will get it.

 

[Armchair]

Additionally...
Pakistan is not planning to go to war with the US. But JSF could very likely make its way to India. JSF in Indian hands is a different ball game from JSF in US arsenal...

 

[Trango Towers]

Additionally...
Pakistan is not planning to go to war with the US. But JSF could very likely make its way to India. JSF in Indian hands is a different ball game from JSF in US arsenal...

With USA using weapons sales to control nations I don't think the Indians will buy American planes. If they do I will be shocked