Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Armchair]

From India Rafales are more of a threat.

India had two stealth fighter programs, SU-57 was a joint venture with Russians from which they have opted out of but with the option to buy in future, but no longer a partner.
Second is their indigenous AMCA, and duplication with the AMCA is one of the reasons why there was internal pressure to leave the SU-57 program.
F-35 seems unlikely at the moment, India has a habit of engaging all manufacturers in a tender war and squeezing a bargain but they are getting weary of it now. Firstly if they even decide to proceed it will again be a competitor to the AMCA and secondly there is a back log from the partner nations of the F-35 program and thirdly since India is not a partner of the project rest of the partner nations will not want India to get TOT because they had injected huge R&D funds while India hasn't been part of the consortium, so "Make in India" condition can not be met. They should ideally end up buying more Rafales, or choose the Gripen. US will be more happy to push the F/A-18 Super Hornet and will sabotage Gripen efforts for it.

Now to AMRAAM, it's the most battle tested missile, with decent performance and BVR combat has alot of variables so can't really put a kill rate, varies per situation and pilot skill. My personal opinion is BVR weapons against advanced 4th gen opponents will be very uncertain and WVR combat, HOBS WVR missiles in particular will be crucial for future air warfare.

Since this thread is for Project Azm, potential AAMs for it could likely be same as that for J-20 & J-31. Which are PL-10, PL-12 (ramjet variant), PL-15 and possibly PL-21. PL-12 (ramjet variant) and PL-15 looks very promising. More important than the increase in range is the fact they will have more kinetic energy to pursue targets in existing range envelop. PL-10 is highly likely to enter service soon with PAF in JF-17 Blk-3.

https://www.popsci.com/chinas-new-ramjet-engine-triple-range-missiles

Hi Shabi1, thanks for this excellent reply. I'm not sure if India's AMCA will work out. Given the track record of DRDO / HAL, this looks very unlikely. Fundamental organizational culture has to change which doesn't seem in the works.

Indian Air Force (IAF), knows this. They are weary of it. They will not fall for the AMCA, for want of a better word, "drama".

Meanwhile, Trump is like a used car salesman, and wants to make money. They also want to contain China. That is fast becoming their #1 priority. The US is strategically distracted between Russia / Muslims / China. They are going round and round trying to deal with each of us and thus unable to make a sustained and decisive move against any one of them. They are losing serious ground most to China.

It is only a matter of time for the US to offer the F-35 at very favorable conditions. Not as a partner but as a buyer, with some assembly and minor local parts production. IAF will grab this opportunity with both arms and both legs.

Meanwhile, the Su-57 has now matured and what it is, is basically a stealthy and updated FLANKER concept-wise. Meanwhile, India's oldest FLANKERs are now two decades old. They aren't built to Western standards and moreover, are considerably heavier than the original design. This means serious structural failure issues with them are bound to either already exist or soon to crop up.

Indians are going to whine and do their street hawker bargaining drama. But eventually, they are very likely to go for:
1. F-35s
2. Su-57s
3. More Rafales

Equipment wise, there are very few options to counter such a force.

PAF will have almost no options from Europe. The US door even if opened, is a pandoras box. Chinese equipment has a long way to go in terms of real combat effectiveness and reliability. And the J-20, their best bird, is highly unsuitable for PAF.

Despite the JF-17, reality is that in 10 years, PAF will find itself between a rock and a hard place. Can the Azm really pull it off? Its still a wild card.

Regarding the pk of the AMRAAM, I did manage to get this from a senior US defense industry person - peer equivalent combat AMRAAM can see 0.3x pk. For those who are confused at that, that is about 30-39% chance of a hit. He had a lot more, I posted it somewhere but can't find it. The real range of any BVR missile is a lot shorter than the advertised theoretical ranges.

 

[帅的一匹]

Hi Shabi1, thanks for this excellent reply. I'm not sure if India's AMCA will work out. Given the track record of DRDO / HAL, this looks very unlikely. Fundamental organizational culture has to change which doesn't seem in the works.

Indian Air Force (IAF), knows this. They are weary of it. They will not fall for the AMCA, for want of a better word, "drama".

Meanwhile, Trump is like a used car salesman, and wants to make money. They also want to contain China. That is fast becoming their #1 priority. The US is strategically distracted between Russia / Muslims / China. They are going round and round trying to deal with each of us and thus unable to make a sustained and decisive move against any one of them. They are losing serious ground most to China.

It is only a matter of time for the US to offer the F-35 at very favorable conditions. Not as a partner but as a buyer, with some assembly and minor local parts production. IAF will grab this opportunity with both arms and both legs.

Meanwhile, the Su-57 has now matured and what it is, is basically a stealthy and updated FLANKER concept-wise. Meanwhile, India's oldest FLANKERs are now two decades old. They aren't built to Western standards and moreover, are considerably heavier than the original design. This means serious structural failure issues with them are bound to either already exist or soon to crop up.

Indians are going to whine and do their street hawker bargaining drama. But eventually, they are very likely to go for:
1. F-35s
2. Su-57s
3. More Rafales

Equipment wise, there are very few options to counter such a force.

PAF will have almost no options from Europe. The US door even if opened, is a pandoras box. Chinese equipment has a long way to go in terms of real combat effectiveness and reliability. And the J-20, their best bird, is highly unsuitable for PAF.

Despite the JF-17, reality is that in 10 years, PAF will find itself between a rock and a hard place. Can the Azm really pull it off? Its still a wild card.

Regarding the pk of the AMRAAM, I did manage to get this from a senior US defense industry person - peer equivalent combat AMRAAM can see 0.3x pk. For those who are confused at that, that is about 30-39% chance of a hit. He had a lot more, I posted it somewhere but can't find it. The real range of any BVR missile is a lot shorter than the advertised theoretical ranges.

I think your analysis is little doctrinal, who said J20 is unsuitable for PAF? as to effectiveness of our weapon, PLA killed 54246 USA soldier/officer(killed 628800 United Nations personnel from 16 other countries) in South Korea 57 years ago.
Never ever say China weapon is not Reliable in real combat, bear that in mind. I will personally take it as an insult.
You fear the west, and we don't give them a shit.

China tied down the whole west untied army in Korean War, who the **** can do it on this planet unless Great China?

Get funnier nowaday...

 

[python-000]

I think your analysis is little doctrinal, who said J20 is unsuitable for PAF? as to effectiveness of our weapon, PLA killed 54246 USA soldier/officer(killed 628800 United Nations personnel from 16 other countries) in South Korea 57 years ago.
Never ever say China weapon is not Reliable in real combat, bear that in mind. I will personally take it as an insult.
You fear the west, and we don't give them a shit.

China tied down the whole west untied army in Korean War, who the **** can do it on this planet unless Great China?

Get funnier nowaday...

1Q Bro, Is that AZM a new jet fighter or JF-17 block 3 !!!

 

[Muhammad Omar]

1Q Bro, Is that AZM a new jet fighter or JF-17 block 3 !!!

New fighter jet

 

[帅的一匹]

1Q Bro, Is that AZM a new jet fighter or JF-17 block 3 !!!

Brand new stealthy fighter

 

[Armchair]

I think your analysis is little doctrinal, who said J20 is unsuitable for PAF? as to effectiveness of our weapon, PLA killed 54246 USA soldier/officer(killed 628800 United Nations personnel from 16 other countries) in South Korea 57 years ago.
Never ever say China weapon is not Reliable in real combat, bear that in mind. I will personally take it as an insult.
You fear the west, and we don't give them a shit.

China tied down the whole west untied army in Korean War, who the **** can do it on this planet unless Great China?

Get funnier nowaday...

Hi Wanglaokan,

Don't take things personally my friend. This is a forum for discussion. A place to share diverse views. What China achieved in Korea - taking on the entire Western military might, and all their lackeys and winning, was amazing. But at a huge cost - the casualty figures are truly horrifying although a lot of it was because the Chinese forces did not have their winter gear.

That was when China was just born. Still in its infancy. Today, China would completely destroy and decimate such a force, with minimal casualties. It is only China's restraint that has stopped it from not taking over Taiwan or any number of its neighbors. Which it can easily do. No doubt it my mind about that.

My doubt is in the quality of the equipment. China has a giant army. It can use lower quality and lower reliability systems and still win - based on Stalin's "quantity has a quality all its own". This is what Western doctrine constricted militaries of former British colonies like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh do not understand.

They are so brainwashed that they cannot appreciate using their own minds to come up with a doctrine suitable to their own situation. No, they want to blindly follow the colonial masters that ruled them for 200 years. They imagine that a handful of shiny toys are better than the rugged and cheap, quantity weapons that could be available.

However, China is not there yet in terms of the quality and reliability required. Some of their products are great, others not too good. Others work but are unreliable. These are not my words but the words of professionals who have used your equipment for decades. China should not be arrogant like the West but rather, learn from this feedback and make better systems (and subsystems).

I am a friend of China. I know some of your diplomats, personally. One is a friend of mine. I have even helped China in classified ways. So know that this is not coming from someone who is out to denigrate your country.

 

[Mace]

Brand new stealthy fighter

Guess, China will buy some of the stealth Azm fighters from Pak to complement J20 in the future.

Azm for Pak only makes no sense.

 

[UserUnknown2025]

Hi Wanglaokan,

Don't take things personally my friend. This is a forum for discussion. A place to share diverse views. What China achieved in Korea - taking on the entire Western military might, and all their lackeys and winning, was amazing. But at a huge cost - the casualty figures are truly horrifying although a lot of it was because the Chinese forces did not have their winter gear.

That was when China was just born. Still in its infancy. Today, China would completely destroy and decimate such a force, with minimal casualties. It is only China's restraint that has stopped it from not taking over Taiwan or any number of its neighbors. Which it can easily do. No doubt it my mind about that.

My doubt is in the quality of the equipment. China has a giant army. It can use lower quality and lower reliability systems and still win - based on Stalin's "quantity has a quality all its own". This is what Western doctrine constricted militaries of former British colonies like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh do not understand.

They are so brainwashed that they cannot appreciate using their own minds to come up with a doctrine suitable to their own situation. No, they want to blindly follow the colonial masters that ruled them for 200 years. They imagine that a handful of shiny toys are better than the rugged and cheap, quantity weapons that could be available.

However, China is not there yet in terms of the quality and reliability required. Some of their products are great, others not too good. Others work but are unreliable. These are not my words but the words of professionals who have used your equipment for decades. China should not be arrogant like the West but rather, learn from this feedback and make better systems (and subsystems).

I am a friend of China. I know some of your diplomats, personally. One is a friend of mine. I have even helped China in classified ways. So know that this is not coming from someone who is out to denigrate your country.

Can you elaborate as to what China is lacking sir?

Guess, China will buy some of the stealth Azm fighters from Pak to complement J20 in the future.

Azm for Pak only makes no sense.

I believe China has it own program, which has progressed further than AZM at the moment. Therefore, I don’t think AZM will be used by the Chinese military. However, AZM will be an attractive export for countries who are either unable to buy F35 or don’t have enough money.

 

[LKJ86]

Guess, China will buy some of the stealth Azm fighters from Pak to complement J20 in the future.

Azm for Pak only makes no sense.

PLAAF and PLANAF have their own plans, and they need what they want.
China is not lack of funds now, unlike the developping of J-10 in the past.

 

[帅的一匹]

Guess, China will buy some of the stealth Azm fighters from Pak to complement J20 in the future.

Azm for Pak only makes no sense.

So Pakistan should quit AZM and wait like sitting duck until you buy F35.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi Wanglaokan,

Don't take things personally my friend. This is a forum for discussion. A place to share diverse views. What China achieved in Korea - taking on the entire Western military might, and all their lackeys and winning, was amazing. But at a huge cost - the casualty figures are truly horrifying although a lot of it was because the Chinese forces did not have their winter gear.

That was when China was just born. Still in its infancy. Today, China would completely destroy and decimate such a force, with minimal casualties. It is only China's restraint that has stopped it from not taking over Taiwan or any number of its neighbors. Which it can easily do. No doubt it my mind about that.

My doubt is in the quality of the equipment. China has a giant army. It can use lower quality and lower reliability systems and still win - based on Stalin's "quantity has a quality all its own". This is what Western doctrine constricted militaries of former British colonies like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh do not understand.

They are so brainwashed that they cannot appreciate using their own minds to come up with a doctrine suitable to their own situation. No, they want to blindly follow the colonial masters that ruled them for 200 years. They imagine that a handful of shiny toys are better than the rugged and cheap, quantity weapons that could be available.

However, China is not there yet in terms of the quality and reliability required. Some of their products are great, others not too good. Others work but are unreliable. These are not my words but the words of professionals who have used your equipment for decades. China should not be arrogant like the West but rather, learn from this feedback and make better systems (and subsystems).

I am a friend of China. I know some of your diplomats, personally. One is a friend of mine. I have even helped China in classified ways. So know that this is not coming from someone who is out to denigrate your country.

I have been following your posts on the forum. You are a big mouth with very little concrete knowledge of science and engineering. As such, do yourself a favour and don't comment on matters that don't concern you. China today has top notch quality in all areas of technology. Get this, and move on.

 

[Shabi1]

Since it's already conveyed by PAF leadership that assistance from China is being provided for project Azm. Pretty good chances Azm will end up to be a JV just like JF-17/FC-1 and Al-Khalid/MBT-2000, but with PAF doing it's own avionics integration work so that they can customize it better, while aerodynamic and air frame work/design will be from China. China has very advanced testing and RCS analysis infrastructure which would take way too long to replicate in Pakistan. Since Pakistan doesnt need the long range capabilities of the J-20 since it doesnt have the same large territory to cover, my opinion is it will be a variant of the J-31/FC-31. This is the best way to achieve a accelerated roll out and the same approach with JF-17 has worked so well so why not do it again.

 

[LKJ86]

My opinion is it will be a variant of the J-31/FC-31

It will depend on the partner you choose: CAC, or SAC?

 

[Shabi1]

It will depend on the partner you choose: CAC, or SAC?

Pakistan has worked with SAC before and had collaborated for establishing overhaul facilities in PAC Kamra for F-6 and A-5, both of which were extensively customized for PAF use.

Most Chinese sources claim J-31 is export oriented. As per history any Chinese system which is export oriented is primarily aimed at and has high chance of Pakistan being it's launch customer.

Will have to wait and see.

 

[Mace]

So Pakistan should quit AZM and wait like sitting duck until you buy F35.

No need to get antsy

Cost of developing F35 approx $400 billion by US and projected order book in excess of 2000+ examples!!

For argument sake, AZM development costs $50 billion to Pak. Now thats a lot of money.