Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Armchair]

I have been following your posts on the forum. You are a big mouth with very little concrete knowledge of science and engineering. As such, do yourself a favour and don't comment on matters that don't concern you. China today has top notch quality in all areas of technology. Get this, and move on.

Hi, if you don't like what someone has to say, you can simply ignore them. Responding in this way only shows how immature you are.

 

[enroger]

So Pakistan should quit AZM and wait like sitting duck until you buy F35.

It's ok, ppl can think what ever they want. Besides no one here is involved in the actual decision making, so it's not like we're losing billion dollar deal over some internet debate... getting overly emotional is just bad for your health.

Lets keep discussions focused on technical issues.

 

[帅的一匹]

No need to get antsy

Cost of developing F35 approx $400 billion by US and projected order book in excess of 2000+ examples!!

For argument sake, AZM development costs $50 billion to Pak. Now thats a lot of money.

How do you know AZM cost $50 billions to Pak? This is totally absurd.

It's ok, ppl can think what ever they want. Besides no one here is involved in the actual decision making, so it's not like we're losing billion dollar deal over some internet debate... getting overly emotional is just bad for your health.

Lets keep discussions focused on technical issues.

It's better be big mouth than ignorant.

At least I don't hide what I have in mind.

 

[Mace]

How do you know AZM cost $50 billions to Pak? This is totally absurd.


It's better be big mouth than ignorant.

How much u think it will cost Pak to develop a decent stealth fighter? A rough estimate?

 

[Armchair]

Since it's already conveyed by PAF leadership that assistance from China is being provided for project Azm. Pretty good chances Azm will end up to be a JV just like JF-17/FC-1 and Al-Khalid/MBT-2000, but with PAF doing it's own avionics integration work so that they can customize it better, while aerodynamic and air frame work/design will be from China. China has very advanced testing and RCS analysis infrastructure which would take way too long to replicate in Pakistan. Since Pakistan doesnt need the long range capabilities of the J-20 since it doesnt have the same large territory to cover, my opinion is it will be a variant of the J-31/FC-31. This is the best way to achieve a accelerated roll out and the same approach with JF-17 has worked so well so why not do it again.

That seems the simplest way forward, except that there may be a Chengdu alternative to the J-31 that is not unveiled. JF-17 was a joint venture, the J-31 would simply be a customization of a Chinese aircraft. The other drawback is that the J-31 seems not ideal for air superiority with its present design (small wings, low TWR).

 

[帅的一匹]

How much u think it will cost Pak to develop a decent stealth fighter? A rough estimate?

If the AZM is based on a very matured design, $ 5 billions is more than enough.

It's ok, ppl can think what ever they want. Besides no one here is involved in the actual decision making, so it's not like we're losing billion dollar deal over some internet debate... getting overly emotional is just bad for your health.

Lets keep discussions focused on technical issues.

Yeh, Chinese weapon is not effective and reliable in war. Let these sh$t keep rolling in PDF. I'm not gonna tolerate it anytime I see it.

I will fight any irresponsible claim against china which is wrong. This is my personality. Until they get a filter on those brain to mouth stuff. That's called respect due.

 

[Armchair]

How much u think it will cost Pak to develop a decent stealth fighter? A rough estimate?

A good question. Depends on the following:

1. What exact capability is being proposed. "stealth fighter" is a very vague term.
2. Will it be a truly clean sheet design or will it be something borrowed like the MiG-33 -cum- JF-17 ?
3. Will it use the best available subsystems, or will it use ambitious, in-program developed sub-systems?
4. How technologically advanced will it be?

For instance, a bigger JF-17-level fighter with internal bays, twin engines, would cost very little to develop. Merely need testing of a new airframe and FBW, which would be simple if it uses the same basic layout (like the Hornet and the Super Hornet).

Technically, you don't even need an internal weapons bay if you use semi-recessed / conformal weapons bays....

Minimum cost? I'd say as little as $0.5-3 Billion.

 

[Mace]

A good question. Depends on the following:

1. What exact capability is being proposed. "stealth fighter" is a very vague term.
2. Will it be a truly clean sheet design or will it be something borrowed like the MiG-33 -cum- JF-17 ?
3. Will it use the best available subsystems, or will it use ambitious, in-program developed sub-systems?
4. How technologically advanced will it be?

For instance, a bigger JF-17-level fighter with internal bays, twin engines, would cost very little to develop. Merely need testing of a new airframe and FBW, which would be simple if it uses the same basic layout (like the Hornet and the Super Hornet).

Technically, you don't even need an internal weapons bay if you use semi-recessed / conformal weapons bays....

Minimum cost? I'd say as little as $0.5-3 Billion.

plausible depending on degree of technology sophistication proposed.

 

[enroger]

That seems the simplest way forward, except that there may be a Chengdu alternative to the J-31 that is not unveiled. JF-17 was a joint venture, the J-31 would simply be a customization of a Chinese aircraft. The other drawback is that the J-31 seems not ideal for air superiority with its present design (small wings, low TWR).

When you say small wings, you mean small wing span or small wing chord? Those means very different things. For example changing to delta wings with same span but higher sweep angle will reduce wing-loading, however it will not produce more lift, merely reduce trans-sonic drag at the cost of shallower lift vs AoA curve.
However if you simply increase J-31 wingspan that will definitely increase lift, however at the cost super-cruise abilities. Therefore I've asked before whether super-cruise is needed for Paf.
As for TWR, I've said it before WS-19 has ample thrust. If you want even more TWR, you would be into twin ws-10/ws-15 territories.

 

[帅的一匹]

Pakistan has worked with SAC before and had collaborated for establishing overhaul facilities in PAC Kamra for F-6 and A-5, both of which were extensively customized for PAF use.

Most Chinese sources claim J-31 is export oriented. As per history any Chinese system which is export oriented is primarily aimed at and has high chance of Pakistan being it's launch customer.

Will have to wait and see.

If FC31 is the thing PAF exactly wants, why take great pain to launch AZM? If I were PAF, I will choose to work with the partnership that I know really well. Unless PLAN has clear commitment to FC31.

 

[UserUnknown2025]

plausible depending on degree of technology sophistication proposed.

The degree of sophistication depends on that of future Indian fifth gen aircraft. What level of technology will future Indian fifth gen fighter incorporate?

 

[帅的一匹]

plausible depending on degree of technology sophistication proposed.

PAF is ambitious, but they are more pragmatic than IAF. Rome is not built in one day.

When you say small wings, you mean small wing span or small wing chord? Those means very different things. For example changing to delta wings with same span but higher sweep angle will reduce wing-loading, however it will not produce more lift, merely reduce trans-sonic drag at the cost of shallower lift vs AoA curve.
However if you simply increase J-31 wingspan that will definitely increase lift, however at the cost super-cruise abilities. Therefore I've asked before whether super-cruise is needed for Paf.
As for TWR, I've said it before WS-19 has ample thrust. If you want even more TWR, you would be into twin ws-10/ws-15 territories.

Until now, PAF didn't reveal whether AZM is single engine or dual engine....

 

[Trango Towers]

How much u think it will cost Pak to develop a decent stealth fighter? A rough estimate?

Pakistan will pay whatever price is necessary as we have to control the high ground. If you compare the development costs of jf17 it was around 500 million. A snippet

 

[enroger]

PAF is ambitious, but they are more pragmatic than IAF. Rome is not built in one day.


Until now, PAF didn't reveal whether AZM is single engine or dual engine....

Single WS-15 design would makes sense for China, since it uses same engine as J-20, I kinda hope CAC design something like that.

 

[Trango Towers]

If FC31 is the thing PAF exactly wants, why take great pain to launch AZM? If I were PAF, I will choose to work with the partnership that I know really well. Unless PLAN has clear commitment to FC31.

One must have the ability to design and develop else you will always remain dependent. Better to pay the price now