Procurement of new aircraft in PAF

[The Accountant]

I think PAF should get couple of J-11D squad with the combo of JF-17 Block III until 5th Generation plane get selected or finalized under project Azm

we can replace our Mirage with J-11D it has AESA IRST radar jammers etc etc much higher payloads which we didn't get from Russia Su-35 the reason it was rejected

J11 is based on sukhoi so i think China cant sale it to third party

 

[CriticalThought]

Absence of modern EW/ELINT platforms is a reality for PAF. In my previous posts on this thread, I have questioned the EW capability of EF Typhoon while dealing with S-400 like systems. I would rather suggest procuring IAI Harpy / Harop like suicide drones for SEAD missions.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/modern-aerial-warfare.520678/

 

[Gryphon]

The PAF will still aim to undertake those offensive engagements. Dense IADS coverage is a major problem to be sure and the most viable solution will not emerge until 5th-gen fighters. However, to strike targets the PAF will likely still aim to exploit gaps in low level coverage to deploy SOWs.

SHORADS and MR-SAMs are there to bridge low level coverage gaps (left by the S-400, which is for high-level), but one would need a truly significant number of those systems to close every conceivable gap, especially along the border, which itself opens those SAMs up to other threats (e.g. guided MLRS).

SOW development for range is key, but to have the means to launch a sizable number of them when the opportunity is made available necessitates medium-to-heavyweight platforms with the requisite range and payload capacity. The alternative could be to invest in a stealth UAV with both an internal bay and integrated warhead element.

As for SLOC. IMO I do believe the PN will deploy some of the Hangor SSPs in the SLOC to deter an MEZ attempt, and we see the IN steer towards building a massive ASW element. However, ASW is still quite difficult, more so if there are enemy aircraft that might threaten ASW assets such as MPA, helicopters and surface combatants. You'd want to aim for two ideal - but mutually exclusive - opportunities: (A) have India over-commit to trying to impose a MEZ and leave itself vulnerable to asymmetrical strikes at home or (B) not bother with a MEZ at all.

Regarding those 'gaps', I would say Indians have more than adequate short / medium range SAM deployments on all possible approaches towards military & civil/military airfields. As I mentioned earlier, S-400's will likely be deployed at airfields (all Indian ones are massive in area).

S-400 systems will not be placed at a hundred km's distance from the border. So, using MLRS like A-100E seems useless to me.

In case of SOWs, one can argue the 300km range ones are being marketed (like Raptor 3) and there is a requirement of a heavy payload fighter to carry those in significant numbers. Looking at the eastern options, only Su-35 seems feasible (assuming Chinese Flankers can't be exported). A much, much better RCS than Su-30. However, maintenance will be difficult.

 

[Basel]

24 Typhoon T3s would be around $7.5bn including spare parts, weapons, etc. Such orders have two sides: (1) acquisition and (2) support.

The T3's unit flyaway cost is probably around $150m, leaving the acquisition cost at $3.6bn. A loan split across a 10 year payment term would mean annual installments of $360 m. The suppliers would need to extend export credit.

The maintenance cost can be absorbed (at least mostly) through the PAF's annual budget, though that budget will need to climb a bit.

Munition purchases can be staged with each arriving batch. It'd be worthwhile to avoid MBDA and pursue possibly lower cost NATO-compliant AAMs, PGBs, SOWs, AShMs, etc from Turkey.

The advantage of the Typhoon over Eastern options is that you can fly them in concert with the F-16s, thus leveraging joint mission planning, common facilities and Link-16. A flight of two Typhoon T3As and 4 MLU/Block-52 would be one network enabled force in the air. A solid threat for offensive air operations.

The Typhoon/F-16 can be the offensive edge while the JF-17s (ideally 200+) could be the sole defensive workhorse to deny enemy access to local airspace and to fight in close proximity areas (e.g. border, Kashmir, littoral waters, etc).

If EFT is added in PAF fleet it will allow area defence capacity to PAF due to its capabilities, it will be able to support all air assets even from standoff ranges and will be good SEAD/DEAD & AShW platform.

 

[araz]

If EFT is added in PAF fleet it will allow area defence capacity to PAF due to its capabilities, it will be able to support all air assets even from standoff ranges and will be good SEAD/DEAD & AShW platform.

I undetstand what people are saying but we dont have that sort of money to buy the EFT. We have possibly invested 2-300 million dollarsin the Erieyes and JFTs are being procured on loans.
One of the most likely buys was the 16 , a combo of new 8-10 plus 14-18 old would have given us some parity. That avenue seems to be receding fast.
We will need to keep the next platform Chinese for fear of sanctions which will affect us whether from USA or EU.
You may remember that the last interview with AVM Zulfiqar had him talking of J20. If fhe J31 is nowhere near ready and PAF does not want to sink a billion dollars into its R&D then it may be likely that we buy 18 to 24 J20s. It would give us parity and allowus breathing space even with the induction of the Rafale by IAF. If people want to sink 2-300million on a plane I might as well get a plane which will be worth its weight in gold. However it maybe that evaluation starts now for12 to 18 months and negotiations last another 18months which means an order in 2018 as the Rafale starts arriving and we will have induction and incorporation into our system by 2023 when the RAFALE goes into its induction. This is the only induction that makes sense to me and as we get used to the plane and develop our dfamiliarity with it we may order in small batches.
The Chinese will want this much time to inductctheir own platforms and PAF might again piggyback of this programme to develop some of the technologies for its own venture. The real question is will the Chinese play ball with us on this one. But the CPEC would increase the co operation between the two friends even more.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

I undetstand what people are saying but we dont have that sort of money to buy the EFT. We have possibly invested 2-300 million dollarsin the Erieyes and JFTs are being procured on loans.
One of the most likely buys was the 16 , a combo of new 8-10 plus 14-18 old would have given us some parity. That avenue seems to be receding fast.
We will need to keep the next platform Chinese for fear of sanctions which will affect us whether from USA or EU.
You may remember that the last interview with AVM Zulfiqar had him talking of J20. If fhe J31 is nowhere near ready and PAF does not want to sink a billion dollars into its R&D then it may be likely that we buy 18 to 24 J20s. It would give us parity and allowus breathing space even with the induction of the Rafale by IAF. If people want to sink 2-300million on a plane I might as well get a plane which will be worth its weight in gold. However it maybe that evaluation starts now for12 to 18 months and negotiations last another 18months which means an order in 2018 as the Rafale starts arriving and we will have induction and incorporation into our system by 2023 when the RAFALE goes into its induction. This is the only induction that makes sense to me and as we get used to the plane and develop our dfamiliarity with it we may order in small batches.
The Chinese will want this much time to inductctheir own platforms and PAF might again piggyback of this programme to develop some of the technologies for its own venture. The real question is will the Chinese play ball with us on this one. But the CPEC would increase the co operation between the two friends even more.
A

Sir, the Rafale threat is not about countering a plane with a plane. This threat needs to be countered through EW.

 

[araz]

Sir, the Rafale threat is not about countering a plane with a plane. This threat needs to be countered through EW.

I think you need to give me a little bit more credit then that. If you think the Chonese will build a fifth generation plane without all the bells and whistles then it is time I left this board.
Regards
A

 

[CriticalThought]

I think you need to give me a little bit more credit then that. If you think the Chonese will build a fifth generation plane without all the bells and whistles then it is time I left this board.
Regards
A

Apologies sir, my intention was not to call your expertise to question.

What I was trying to say, is that countering a modern 4.5++ gen jet isn't simply a matter of bringing another jet, bells and whistles notwithstanding.

There are two distinct approaches. The first is the American, air superiority F-22. One plane, with all bells and whistles. The problem is, if you load a single plane with so many requirements, there will definitely be conflict.

As opposed to this, the Russian strategy in Syria has been to keep their air superiority fighters at a basic 4+ gen level. Most of the planes were strike fighters, or multi-role. They fielded only a handful of air superiority fighters. Their major assets were the A-50U, and S-400. The A-50U takes away the advantage of look first, shoot first from the F-22. It can no longer claim to see you while you don't see it. It can no longer claim to unlockable. All you need, is any platform - not a 5th gen fighter, but any platform - that is capable of firing a VLRAAM. This Russian strategy is tried and tested in Syria, and I feel is a very potent one.

 

[Basel]

I undetstand what people are saying but we dont have that sort of money to buy the EFT. We have possibly invested 2-300 million dollarsin the Erieyes and JFTs are being procured on loans.
One of the most likely buys was the 16 , a combo of new 8-10 plus 14-18 old would have given us some parity. That avenue seems to be receding fast.
We will need to keep the next platform Chinese for fear of sanctions which will affect us whether from USA or EU.
You may remember that the last interview with AVM Zulfiqar had him talking of J20. If fhe J31 is nowhere near ready and PAF does not want to sink a billion dollars into its R&D then it may be likely that we buy 18 to 24 J20s. It would give us parity and allowus breathing space even with the induction of the Rafale by IAF. If people want to sink 2-300million on a plane I might as well get a plane which will be worth its weight in gold. However it maybe that evaluation starts now for12 to 18 months and negotiations last another 18months which means an order in 2018 as the Rafale starts arriving and we will have induction and incorporation into our system by 2023 when the RAFALE goes into its induction. This is the only induction that makes sense to me and as we get used to the plane and develop our dfamiliarity with it we may order in small batches.
The Chinese will want this much time to inductctheir own platforms and PAF might again piggyback of this programme to develop some of the technologies for its own venture. The real question is will the Chinese play ball with us on this one. But the CPEC would increase the co operation between the two friends even more.
A

A PAF specific customize J-20 will be game changer due to stealth, sensors, range, weapons load, will give PAF preemptive strike capability again even against S-400 and all goodies India have.

Sir, the Rafale threat is not about countering a plane with a plane. This threat needs to be countered through EW.

Not just EW, we need advance low to medium level GBRs and SAMs too.

Apologies sir, my intention was not to call your expertise to question.

What I was trying to say, is that countering a modern 4.5++ gen jet isn't simply a matter of bringing another jet, bells and whistles notwithstanding.

There are two distinct approaches. The first is the American, air superiority F-22. One plane, with all bells and whistles. The problem is, if you load a single plane with so many requirements, there will definitely be conflict.

As opposed to this, the Russian strategy in Syria has been to keep their air superiority fighters at a basic 4+ gen level. Most of the planes were strike fighters, or multi-role. They fielded only a handful of air superiority fighters. Their major assets were the A-50U, and S-400. The A-50U takes away the advantage of look first, shoot first from the F-22. It can no longer claim to see you while you don't see it. It can no longer claim to unlockable. All you need, is any platform - not a 5th gen fighter, but any platform - that is capable of firing a VLRAAM. This Russian strategy is tried and tested in Syria, and I feel is a very potent one.

How you can claim A-50U can detect F-22? And what range it can do it??

 

[CriticalThought]

A PAF specific customize J-20 will be game changer due to stealth, sensors, range, weapons load, will give PAF preemptive strike capability again even against S-400 and all goodies India have.

Wrong. You may have a stealth aircraft, but going up against S-400 isn't a walk in the park. Funnily enough, if the Americans wage a campaign against it, their front line aircraft will be F-35 and/or FA/18E Growler, and only after they start the action will F-22 enter the fray. That is if they can't destroy the radar installation through stand-off weapons and cruise missiles. Getting their expensive planes to perform SEAD/DEAD would be an unpalatable option that they would use as a last resort.

Not just EW, we need advance low to medium level GBRs and SAMs too.

Agreed.

How you can claim A-50U can detect F-22? And what range it can do it??

You need to understand that there is not going to be any 'news' announcing to the world that Russia can detect F-22. I have reached this conclusion by considering some consistent noises coming from Russian forces.

First, Russian field commanders have been quoted as saying that no plane is completely stealthy. They sound extremely confident in being able to detect the Raptor. Then, there was an article in CNN or BBC that detailed how American jets would be really hard pressed against it. Then, there was an article on Sputniknews about F-22 having to switch off their radars in order to avoid detection. Then there is the general trend of how Russians give emphasis to IRST. It is a fact that RAM coatings get extremely hot as EM radiation keeps striking them. Finally, there is the tacit disengagement by America shortly after Russian introduced A-50U.

All of these, as well as developments in Chinese tech point to the future of dealing with Stealth planes in general.

 

[Code_Geass]

if we are going to get a new jet off the shelf, and we need them by 2022-3 what would be time we need to place the order??
@araz @CriticalThought

 

[ziaulislam]

The logic is simple

The Captor radar on the Typhoon is five times the processing power of KLJ7 radar
The meteore BVR is 20 years ahead of the PL10 and is a ramjet missle
The TWR and engine power of the Typhoon is twice that of the Thunder

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING THE Typhoon can be taken out by a Thunder ?

Can you give me the source or if you dont than were you the lead engnr in both typhoon and thunder, if not than you seem to be a buffoon

Typhoon has AESA (newer versions only) but so will the thunders

Last i check sd10b was comparable to 120c versions which is the latest in USA inventory

 

[ziaulislam]

The logic is simple

The Captor radar on the Typhoon is five times the processing power of KLJ7 radar
The meteore BVR is 20 years ahead of the PL10 and is a ramjet missle
The TWR and engine power of the Typhoon is twice that of the Thunder

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING THE Typhoon can be taken out by a Thunder ?

Yes. 4sd10x2pl5 configuration with AESA and a jamming pod why not?

Thunder is the equivalent of gripen that you guys are dying for

china is world second biggest defence spender and has R&D second to only USA
And the sd 10b is their ace weapon

 

[araz]

Apologies sir, my intention was not to call your expertise to question.

What I was trying to say, is that countering a modern 4.5++ gen jet isn't simply a matter of bringing another jet, bells and whistles notwithstanding.

There are two distinct approaches. The first is the American, air superiority F-22. One plane, with all bells and whistles. The problem is, if you load a single plane with so many requirements, there will definitely be conflict.

As opposed to this, the Russian strategy in Syria has been to keep their air superiority fighters at a basic 4+ gen level. Most of the planes were strike fighters, or multi-role. They fielded only a handful of air superiority fighters. Their major assets were the A-50U, and S-400. The A-50U takes away the advantage of look first, shoot first from the F-22. It can no longer claim to see you while you don't see it. It can no longer claim to unlockable. All you need, is any platform - not a 5th gen fighter, but any platform - that is capable of firing a VLRAAM. This Russian strategy is tried and tested in Syria, and I feel is a very potent one.

My first premise was resource constraint. The assumption was a choice of either 4.5 gen now and delay your acquisition of 5th generation till 2030 as I dont think we will have the resources to do so again or counter all the capabilities of the Rafale with a potentially superior platform which will then not only negate the advantages of the Rafale but give any aggressor some food for thought. EFT ,J11/16/SU35 at best give us comparative parity yet we still lose out on the numbers game for the very simple reason that the enemy can get more platforms.
The other variable in the equation is the development cycle of the JFT which should not be discounted. We may have counted on 3 batches/blocks but the development will continue and as our capacity to incorporate newer tech increases the JFT will become a very able work horse which can be fielded in numbers to counter the enemy. The feeling of superiority of the enemy will dissipate once they lose a few of their behemoths to it. However the sheer numberical superiority of adversary will pose problems and in order to have parity none of the 4.5 generation make sense. Now look at the board again and tell me if you could field a couple of squadrons of j20s how confident will your enemy be to confront it.
There are other variables as to whether we will achieve the number of sorties required or what will be the cost of these sorties and whether that in its own right will make the platform unmaintainable for us and indeed whether the Chinese will sell it to us. The answer to the above can only be given by tbe PAF high ups not anarmchair General like me.
A

A PAF specific customize J-20 will be game changer due to stealth, sensors, range, weapons load, will give PAF preemptive strike capability again even against S-400 and all goodies India have.



Not just EW, we need advance low to medium level GBRs and SAMs too.



How you can claim A-50U can detect F-22? And what range it can do it??

Fully agreed but for how long- that is the question. The problem with acquisitions of such nature is that it will push India firmly into the US camp and they will be asking for the F35.So the game will go on. The eventual outcome of all of this will be a lot of bhookay and nangayy awam on both side of the border. As I have said before War is a Zero sum game and eventually both sides will lose out in a war. There are other wars which are bei g fought on the economic front where we have already lost out. More than the 90s the 2000s have been the lost decade for us. And yet people have not really understood how wars are being fought in the modern times.
A

 

[Khadim e Darul Ehsaan]

as i know PAF is not looking new fighter but PDF

Actually its same as :"Pallay nhn dhela te kerdi mela mela"