PRESIDENT ERDOĞAN CELEBRATES HANUKKAH DAY

[Special Delivery]

I agree too. We should put more effort on the Turkic world. Especially Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Azerbaijan seem to be really keen on reviving the Turkic sense, but it's a shame that our govt seems to be more interested in trying to win back influence in the ME, which is not bad from an economical point of view, but he pokes his nose too much in certain political affairs, with Syria being the biggest fail. We wouldn't like it if the Arabs or Iranians did the same, do we? In my opinion, if Erdogan's Islamic orientation could be swapped with a bigger Turkic vision, it probably would have been much better than now.

It's a missed opportunity for sure. We as Turkic brothers should be trying to decrease the influence that Russia has on our brother states. This is the reason why Uzbekistan for example, is so isolated. They have been ruled by the same corrupt dog since the Cold War. We need to work on Turan. The Arabs have their Arab League and GCC. Where are the Turks? A mighty blunder is unfolding before our eyes. The first blowback was Syria. Yes Turkey is a part of NATO, but instead of kissing their arse, we should use the influence that their membership provides us to influence Central Asia.

 

[al-Hasani]

It's a missed opportunity for sure. We as Turkic brothers should be trying to decrease the influence that Russia has on our brother states. This is the reason why Uzbekistan for example, is so isolated. They have been ruled by the same corrupt dog since the Cold War. We need to work on Turan. The Arabs have their Arab League and GCC. Where are the Turks? A mighty blunder is unfolding before our eyes. The first blowback was Syria. Yes Turkey is a part of NATO, but instead of kissing their arse, we should use the influence that their membership provides us to influence Central Asia.

Well, the 400 million or so Arabs (I don't include the 40 million or so big diaspora) share the same mother-tongue (albeit there being various dialects some very close and some less so), scripture, are connected geographical from Morocco in the West near the Atlantic Ocean to Oman in the East near the Arabian Sea. Moreover our countries and societies are rather similar (the diversity is still significant) but overall considering the huge land mass it's astoundingly homogenous. Moreover our world in pre-Islamic types was shaped by a largely Semitic heritage and after Islam appeared an Islamic civilization under the Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimids. Let alone recent history which has been shaped by colonialism. Sure there are regional blocs in the Arab world based on ancient historical regions but you have distinctive regions in every single country of a certain size.

I for once am not against Turkey's policy (let alone Turks as a people) in the Arab world outside of what I perceive as some level of Neo-Ottomanism in some sectors in Turkey. Those that believe that the large parts of the Arab world belongs to them because they controlled it for 400 years directly or by local pro-Ottoman rulers (out of millennium long histories - comparable to Arabs claiming half of modern-day Turkey due to controlling that once for quite a significant time), that Makkah and Madinah should be Turkish controlled etc. I as a non-Islamist Arab don't' like this and besides we have bad experiences with foreigners in the past 150 years. Most used us and neglected us or broke their promises. So try to understand it from our perspective. No different to the mistrust many Central Asians, Caucasians, Eastern Europeans etc. have for Russians and most outsiders understand why that is..
Look at the Farsis and what they are doing in the Arab world. The Americans are not any better. They don't care about anyone but their interests and have caused enough misery in Iraq for instance. So this is not me being against a particular people x or y. This has nothing to do with any people actually but leaders.

If I was a Turk I would work towards greater Turkic cooperation as well.

You were a Crimean Tatar right? How are Tatars connected to Turks? Is it like Arabs and Jews? Or Arabs and Assyrians? Also how many Tatars are there in Turkey?

 

[usernameless]

It's a missed opportunity for sure. We as Turkic brothers should be trying to decrease the influence that Russia has on our brother states. This is the reason why Uzbekistan for example, is so isolated. They have been ruled by the same corrupt dog since the Cold War. We need to work on Turan. The Arabs have their Arab League and GCC. Where are the Turks? A mighty blunder is unfolding before our eyes. The first blowback was Syria. Yes Turkey is a part of NATO, but instead of kissing their arse, we should use the influence that their membership provides us to influence Central Asia.

agree wholeheartedly. I absolutely don't want to put Turkey as the 'big brother' that needs to be followed by the rest of the Turkic countries, because we are all equal, but Turkey at the moment is the one that could give the Turkic world a big boost economically (which already happens through many investments AFAIK), culturally (which also happens in some degree, but could be way faster, like adopting a common alphabet and language a la Esperanto?), politically (this needs much more improvement) and militarily (not sure, but i think Turkish defense companies and their products are gradually making reasonable inroads in Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan while there is unfortunately a lack of mutual defense, if i am not mistaken). I believe that Turkic countries first should focus on individual development, with especially the help of fellow Turkic countries, because without wealth almost no one is going to care about its neighbor while at the same time our mutual cultures should be exposed to each other as much as possible, but the obstacles (Russia's influence) are big at the moment.

 

[Special Delivery]

If I was a Turk I would work towards greater Turkic cooperation as well.

You were a Crimean Tatar right? How are Tatars connected to Turks? Is it like Arabs and Jews? Or Arabs and Assyrians? Also how many Tatars are there in Turkey?

Tatars are a very old tribe of Turkic people who started East and swept westward. The common factor between all Turkic groups is our nomadic roots and constant expansion and drive Westward. The Arab and Jew correlation used in modern times is much too vague in many respects even though there is a definite link, it is not fully understood in terms of racial and ethnic context. In terms of haplogroups and mitochondrial DNA relationships between Tatars and Turks, I am not an expert in this field but it is one of my pursuits in the near future. Tatars are heavily Caucasian in appearance with many of them exhibiting Turko-Mongol traits. Crimean Tatars had their own Khanate in Crimea and we aided the Ottomans in all of their wars against the Russian Tzars. We also are present in other parts of Europe but were absorbed by the Ottomans.

 

[al-Hasani]

agree wholeheartedly. I absolutely don't want to put Turkey as the 'big brother' that needs to be followed by the rest of the Turkic countries, because we are all equal, but Turkey at the moment is the one that could give the Turkic world a big boost economically (which already happens through many investments AFAIK), culturally (which also happens in some degree, but could be way faster, like adopting a common alphabet and language a la Esperanto?), politically (this needs much more improvement) and militarily (not sure, but i think Turkish defense companies and their products are gradually making reasonable inroads in Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan while there is unfortunately a lack of mutual defense, if i am not mistaken). I believe that Turkic countries first should focus on individual development, with especially the help of fellow Turkic countries, because without wealth almost no one is going to care about its neighbor while at the same time our mutual cultures should be exposed to each other as much as possible, but the obstacles (Russia's influence) are big at the moment.

To be brutally honest with you (I discussed this with Arabs too and Turks before) then I do not believe that a "United Arab" or a "United Turkic" (as in federal states) State will ever become a reality because such countries would be a threat to the establishment and would face huge opposition from Israel (in the case of us Arabs), the US, Russia, China etc. Nobody wants another competitor on the "market". The best that you can hope for IMO is that Russia somehow loses their grip on Central Asia (their backyard) so you can have closer ties with the Turkic states in Central Asia or hope that Turkic minorities in Russia such as mainly Tatars will increase rapidly in numbers and gain more political influence. From what I know about Russia then many Russians have a hatred for non-Russians (even fellow Slavic people - look how much they hate Polish people for instance and now Ukrainians) and especially Muslims. For instance they have a long history of comotting genocide on indigenous Muslims in what is now Caucasus.

In the Arab world, KSA included (Hijaz - my region), we have, aside from a significant Turkish minority (as in modern-day Turkish people) a sizable Circassian community. In fact Circassians serve as Royal Guards in Jordan. Anyway those people were mass-murdered by Tsarist Russia and forced to escape to the Ottoman Empire.

Ethnic cleansing of Circassians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another thing this genocide is unknown for most people in Europe. I think that not even 1 in every 100 Europeans know about this yet everyone knows about Holocaust. Unfair.

So although we live in a world were most powers prefer peace and trade then such projects are unrealistic unless we can compete with those powers on a military, economica and scientific level. Which is unfortunately not the case as of now and I have my serious reservations on this ever happening.

Just my two cents.

Anyway just wanted to say that you are one of my favorite Turkish users on PDF.

 

[atatwolf]

To go after our Turan vision, it would be very illogical to turn our backs to non-Turks. On the east we have our Turkic brother states. In Russia there is a big population of Turkic peoples but to turn our back to non-Turks would be an economical and foreign political disaster. A nation can't develop when all of its neighbors is in termoil. Security risks. Economic loss of invested money in the neighboring country. Refugees coming over. Stability, etc.

 

[Special Delivery]

To go after our Turan vision, it would be very illogical to turn our backs to non-Turks. On the east we have our Turkic brother states. In Russia there is a big population of Turkic peoples but to turn our back to non-Turks would be an economic and foreign policy disaster.

Turkey has a unique position regarding this. Fully pursue it my brothers, but don't get caught up in something that will entrench you in someone else's policy visions.

In the very recent past, Turkey has become an enemy of Israel. Our goal is not to free Palestine, because we all know what happened after World War 1. Turkey didn't need to start becoming boisterous against Bashar al Assad either. This is all in your backyard my friend, so be cautious.

Turkey should be a sober second opinion within NATO, not a forward operating base for misadventures like it has slowly been turned into. Economic and diplomatic alliances will help Turan become a reality, it is the only language people understand in geo-politics. Strong relations with the EU is also key for Turkey. Right now Turkey is getting closer to the Russian camp due to tension with the United States. There are many economic incentives that should be pursued with Russia as well. But now is the time that their influence is being challenged. Turkey should be smart.

 

[usernameless]

To be brutally honest with you (I discussed this with Arabs too and Turks before) then I do not believe that a "United Arab" or a "United Turkic" (as in federal states) State will ever become a reality because such countries would be a threat to the establishment and would face huge opposition from Israel (in the case of us Arabs), the US, Russia, China etc. Nobody wants another competitor on the "market". The best that you can hope for IMO is that Russia somehow loses their grip on Central Asia (their backyard) so you can have closer ties with the Turkic states in Central Asia or hope that Turkic minorities in Russia such as mainly Tatars will increase rapidly in numbers and gain more political influence. From what I know about Russia then many Russians have a hatred for non-Russians (even fellow Slavic people - look how much they hate Polish people for instance and now Ukrainians) and especially Muslims. For instance they have a long history of comotting genocide on indigenous Muslims in what is now Caucasus.

In the Arab world, KSA included (Hijaz - my region), we have, aside from a significant Turkish minority (as in modern-day Turkish people) a sizable Circassian community. In fact Circassians serve as Royal Guards in Jordan. Anyway those people were mass-murdered by Tsarist Russia and forced to escape to the Ottoman Empire.

Ethnic cleansing of Circassians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another thing this genocide is unknown for most people in Europe. I think that not even 1 in every 100 Europeans know about this yet everyone knows about Holocaust. Unfair.

So although we live in a world were most powers prefer peace and trade then such projects are unrealistic unless we can compete with those powers on a military, economica and scientific level. Which is unfortunately not the case as of now and I have my serious reservations on this ever happening.

Just my two cents.

Anyway just wanted to say that you are one of my favorite Turkish users on PDF.

Exactly right, worst of it all is that Turkic countries are sandwiched between Russia, China and Iran, not exactly the neighborhood where you can set up a Turkic union Actually I wanted to write this in my previous post, but didnt to keep it short, I think Turkey (and other Turkic states) should wait till Russia becomes destabilized before we pursue aggressive pro-Turkic moves. Actually, I would go as far as to say that the reason why Turkey currently doesn't focus on the Turkic world in the first place is probably because it cannot and doesn't want to face an aggressive Russia at this stage, now that things, be it economically or militarily, are finally starting to roll more seriously for Turkey. Turkey is still dependent on Russian resources too. I worry that an aggressive pro-Turkic policy by Turkic countries would make Russia feel unease (their backyard as you wrote) and so they could use their leverages to put an end to it or seriously hinder it. Turkey and Azerbaijan are finally starting to get linked up, which is the first step, yet Russia actually could mess this link too if they want to. It's a process that needs patience and time, plus bad luck for Russia.

As for those atrocities, that, along with their assimilation policies and being our arch rival, is one of the reasons why I never believe Russia will give us a free ride to Central Asia. There is mutual distrust and it will probably stay like this.

Thank you, likewise.

 

[atatwolf]

Turkey has a unique position regarding this. Fully pursue it my brothers, but don't get caught up in something that will entrench you in someone else's policy visions.

In the very recent past, Turkey has become an enemy of Israel. Our goal is not to free Palestine, because we all know what happened after World War 1. Turkey didn't need to start becoming boisterous against Bashar al Assad either. This is all in your backyard my friend, so be cautious.

Turkey should be a sober second opinion within NATO, not a forward operating base for misadventures like it has slowly been turned into. Economic and diplomatic alliances will help Turan become a reality, it is the only language people understand in geo-politics. Strong relations with the EU is also key for Turkey. Right now Turkey is getting closer to the Russian camp due to tension with the United States. There are many economic incentives that should be pursued with Russia as well. But now is the time that their influence is being challenged. Turkey should be smart.

I agree with you. I read some people saying Turkey should go after Turan vision but this won't be happening if its neighborhood is in constant turmoil. For an economic power to rise, one condition is very important which is stability. When you look at the violence that have been happening since the fall of the Ottoman Empire it is logical that the region is not growing. There needs to be a power that understands the region and has the hard power to maintain the peace. For example ISIS can't be silenced with soft power. It is a threat to Turkey. What can you do? Ignore it? Eventually it will get you. Same with the Kurdish rebels and Arab dictators. There needs to be a force that can put the region into tranquility otherwise the turmoil will continue. These things are also influencing Turkic peoples so we should have a say in things. If there is constant war there. We can't grow economically.

 

[Falcon29]

Nobody asks Turkey to do anything because quite frankly no Muslim country can do anything to Israel. Firstly they have nukes and they will use them if necessary (if their existence is threatened) and secondly they have the back of the US. Need I say more? What do you think would happen if Turkey had attacked Israel after those 8 Turkish activists were killed by Israeli soldiers? Be honest for once and avoid the TURKEY STRONK logic for once.

.

Then our strategists should think of something. Or just arm us.

 

[al-Hasani]

Then our strategists should think of something. Or just arm us.

Beat them at their own field. Military, economy and science. Once you do that you can be in their position and label people as "terrorists" and use drones on them without any consequences, invade their lands because you disagree with their rulers or because they are a "security threat" to the "civilized world" etc. Can you fell me?

The current strategy is doing more harm than good.

 

[Falcon29]

Beat them at their own field. Military, economy and science. Once you do that you can be in their position and label people as "terrorists" and use drones on them without any consequences.

We can't excel when denied our basic rights.

Success requires infrastructure/resources/funds as well. Even if we have technical expertise, we lack factors needed to make something out of it.

 

[al-Hasani]

We can't excel when denied our basic rights.

Success requires infrastructure/resources/funds as well. Even if we have technical expertise, we lack factors needed to make something out of it.

That's the problem of the Muslim world and is largely due to the Muslim world not being the world power that it once was. Go back 1000 years in time to for instance Baghdad (how ironic how history changes) which was the biggest city in the world back then and the capital of the biggest and strongest empire (Abbasids) and you would be in a position to point fingers and laugh. The only reason why Europe was not overrun back then (well parts of it were) was because enough people were already converted to Islam and because Europe was largely insignificant due to living in the "Dark Ages".

 

[atatwolf]

That's the problem of the Muslim world and is largely due to the Muslim world not being the world power that it once was. Go back 1000 years in time to for instance Baghdad (how ironic how history changes) which was the biggest city in the world back then and the capital of the biggest and strongest empire (Abbasids) and you would be in a position to point fingers and laugh. The only reason why Europe was not overrun back then (well parts of it were) was because enough people were already converted to Islam and because Europe was largely insignificant due to living in the "Dark Ages".

You didn't answer any of Hazzy's concern unless you invented a time machine and can travel back 1001 years.

 

[al-Hasani]

You didn't answer any of Hazzy's concern unless you invented a time machine and can travel back 1001 years.

I have after visiting Iran.

Iranian scientist claims to have invented 'time machine' - Telegraph

I think I already covered that in this very thread. Scroll up a bit and it will appear on your screen.

Besides me and Hazzy have discussed those issues 100's of times. We know very well what must change in the Muslim world.