Potential Weaknesses of PAF and Possible Solutions

[Farooqi1]

And therefore.... the potential weakness of the PAF, are.....??? that it does not have MiG 29 MKI, Rafale????

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And what do you think sir?

SAMs, SAMs and more SAMs are what we require, oh and some good jets too, we need to build up an AF that can last at least a month before an enemy of IAF's size

---------------- oh and some good jets too--------- now this is the point of contention. What is the definition of a good jet? This is where people are coming after me with loaded guns.

 

[muse]

Why is everybody talking about potential weakness, as existing only in the case of war - is the level of technical proficiency in the PAF where it needs to be? if not, how can this be addressed?, Is the training less than world class, how can this be addressed? -- I'm not really to much into the whole hardware argument, it's too much of a camel air force argument, at least to me - the more important weaknesses, just my two cents, are technical, training and infrastructure, which is why I'm as focused on specialty schools in the armed forces.

 

[lkozhi]

all your planes are facing us. backdoor is open for all

 

[Farooqi1]

Why is everybody talking about potential weakness, as existing only in the case of war - is the level of technical proficiency in the PAF where it needs to be? if not, how can this be addressed?, Is the training less than world class, how can this be addressed? -- I'm not really to much into the whole hardware argument, it's too much of a camel air force argument, at least to me - the more important weaknesses, just my two cents, are technical, training and infrastructure, which is why I'm as focused on specialty schools in the armed forces.

Bhai Meray your point is one of the basic requirments of any Air Force and I 100% agree with you. But you can not survive without good hadrware. Technical Training and infrastructure are normally associated with the hardware.

 

[muse]

Technical Training and infrastructure are normally associated with the hardware.

Much like education and critical reasoning are supposed to be tied together - and yet we thirst to experience it, especially in some post

 

[PakShaheen79]

Alot of posters are talking about SAMS. And I am geting this notion that we don't have enough SAMS deployed. Is there a hindrence obtaining them? I mean are we having difficulties buying them because we are under some sort of sanctions, shortage of funds etc? Somebody have the answer or info?

Yes Sir, CASH is the Problem we have. I am glad that we are returning the loan back to IMF but that doesn't leave much fiscal space to procure High altitude long range SAMs and same goes for modern fighters. that's why my solution is to recover and stabilize the economy before we can go shopping like Indians are doing.

 

[MilSpec]

IAF still doen't have it act together with LCA development languishing and rafale' acquisition taking more than 5 years, hence PAF is in excellent shape to counter Indian hardware. fast forward seven years, thats when PAF will start feeling the heat, HAL's new Banglore division will roll out 12- to 14 rafales are year by ease by then along with 15-18 LCA mk2 from the HAL's old Banglore div. The biggest headache will be provided by HAL nasik division finishing production of MKI and starting the FGFA lines.

Unless j17 j10B or Jxx brings some incredible technological superiority compared to LCA mk2, MKI, Rafale and FGFA, the number of IAF will become increasingly difficult for PAF to crunch

 

[SQ8]

Why is everybody talking about potential weakness, as existing only in the case of war - is the level of technical proficiency in the PAF where it needs to be? if not, how can this be addressed?, Is the training less than world class, how can this be addressed? -- I'm not really to much into the whole hardware argument, it's too much of a camel air force argument, at least to me - the more important weaknesses, just my two cents, are technical, training and infrastructure, which is why I'm as focused on specialty schools in the armed forces.

technicaly , the PAF now has some of the most sophisticated hardware to operate(F-16 block 52's, Saab Erieye, JF-17, integrated C4I system etc). In that respect the PAF(if not all of it) is now operating fairly cutting edge equipment along with the war-fighting sophistication it brings.
starting from Command and Control, PAF pilots soon will no longer communicate via radio that much. Any new target picked up by any sensor(be it a ground based or an airbased one) will register on the central network and will be available to the command loop to decide what asset to commit to it. That asset will most likely not be told by radio about the target, but rather will see the target on his situation display and have automatic vectors displayed to him for it along with instructions.
This technical sophistication is now being applied widespread to the C4I network, and will soon translate to most PAF equipment and pilots.
Next up are the tactics for this new equipment, ALL PAF pilots are now proficient in BVR engagement and evasion tactics from the day they began basic fighter flying to more specialized training for their type of aircraft.
Most, have also being trained on the use of Air combat manoeuvring tactics with High off-boresight weapons and how to utilize them best in slash and dash techniques.
They are now given basic adversary experience on what to expect, how to fight an enemy better equipped than them and what tactics to use to reduce their opponents advantage(ranging from countermeasures, surrounding terrain and manoeuvres).And this begin when they start operational flying in a F-7(very basic compared to what is coming). Once they make to better aircraft in terms of equipment and operational effectiveness(Mirage ROSE, JF-17,F-16)..they are taught even more advanced skills in courses(which includes both written, simulator and actual flying) designed from every ounce of experience and knowledge the PAF has been able to glean from around the world(legally and illegally).
So in answer to your questions, yes.. the PAF is very current in its technical understanding and training standards and at par with the very latest and greatest.

HOWEVER.. Current pace and development of technology allows superior gadgetry and aircraft design to increase the gap that training is able to close against a superior enemy.
Take as an example.. a modern day BMW vs an older one.
You may put a better driver in the older model or perhaps one that is lesser equipped.. but the modern Beamer has so much gadgetry in it.. that it enables even the most stupid of drivers to be able to wheel around like a pro.
the older car's driver may make perfect shifts, take the corners as best as any human possibly could.
But the modern car might simply tell the idiot in the seat to turn the wheel left at the right time and keep his foot on the gas..
So that it drives more precise and goes faster.

Today's F-35 is so simple to fly when compared to say the Su-37 of the later 90's..
That while that aircraft may have the best pilot in it.. the F-35 can have a relative dum-dum and still make it easy as pie to kill the Su-37.
Point being, It would take excellent PAF pilots in their relatively better new jets.. to outclass the average adversary pilot in his superior jet. But for all the jingoism from fanboys.. adversaries are smart, they learn..they adapt..
And even if most PAF pilots are above average flyers.. it would only take a slightly below average or above adversary to defeat them...since their aircraft provide them that edge.

 

[Farooqi1]

Yes Sir, CASH is the Problem we have. I am glad that we are returning the loan back to IMF but that doesn't leave much fiscal space to procure High altitude long range SAMs and same goes for modern fighters. that's why my solution is to recover and stabilize the economy before we can go shopping like Indians are doing.

I would rather pay off our loans if we really are paying them off. good to hear that.

Much like education and critical reasoning are supposed to be tied together - and yet we thirst to experience it, especially in some post

Well if you want to be rude then please leave this thread because one of the requirements of this thread is "respectful". Mods please take a note.

 

[Omega007]

I just would like to bring up one fact and PLEASE don't think that I'm trolling.
Don't you guys think that very geographical shape of Pakistani land is its biggest disadvantage of PAF.I mean its narow and elongated shape ensures that all of its major air bases including those house its AWACS are in relatively closer proximity and can be repeatedly hit by Indian NLOS BSMs like Shaurya and and air launched Brahmos.
And it will be very helpful if some informed member here can throw some light on the ground based radar facilities available to PAF.
THANX..

 

[SQ8]

I just would like to bring up one fact and PLEASE don't think that I'm trolling.
Don't you guys think that very geographical shape of Pakistani land is its biggest disadvantage of PAF.I mean its narow and elongated shape ensures that all of its major air bases including those house its AWACS are in relatively closer proximity and can be repeatedly hit by Indian NLOS BSMs like Shaurya and and air launched Brahmos.
And it will be very helpful if some informed member here can throw some light on the ground based radar facilities available to PAF.
THANX..

The oft coined term of strategic depth is what Pakistani planners always squeak about and this relates exactly to this.
Unlike India(which also has major airbases some 5 minutes from the border), Pakistan does not have any rear airbases apart from Samungli) to fall back on. Indian stand-off weapon systems can play havoc with Pakistani installations(especially since both Brahmos and Shaurya are near hypersonic vehicles and exceedingly difficult to intercept with current Pakistani Air defence assets)
Pakistan's airforce has had to come up with different dispersal tactics for its force in anticipation of losing its major bases early on in the war, many of these are undisclosed and unknown to the general public but are as effective as the Swedish plans in case of an Invasion. Which is why Pakistan's latest aircraft are short field capable and will continue to operate for a while even after major facilities are destroyed.

 

[Omega007]

The oft coined term of strategic depth is what Pakistani planners always squeak about and this relates exactly to this.
Unlike India(which also has major airbases some 5 minutes from the border), Pakistan does not have any rear airbases apart from Samungli) to fall back on. Indian stand-off weapon systems can play havoc with Pakistani installations(especially since both Brahmos and Shaurya are near hypersonic vehicles and exceedingly difficult to intercept with current Pakistani Air defence assets)
Pakistan's airforce has had to come up with different dispersal tactics for its force in anticipation of losing its major bases early on in the war, many of these are undisclosed and unknown to the general public but are as effective as the Swedish plans in case of an Invasion. Which is why Pakistan's latest aircraft are short field capable and will continue to operate for a while even after major facilities are destroyed.

Vary Many THANX for your reply Sir.Now can you throw some info about which ground radar systems are operational with PAF??

 

[SQ8]

Vary Many THANX for your reply Sir.Now can you throw some info about which ground radar systems are operational with PAF??

I cant state them all.. but they include American radars like the TPS-77, a few Chinese systems.. Siemens giraffe radar.. and other European systems.

 

[Safriz]

what about those giraffe radars they had?
them telescopic...portable ones?
They had a few of them radars roaming up on the mountains around terbela dam..
every other day i used to ses them packing their tents and moving to another location..
they always parked their radar at the peak of a mountain from where they could see a very large area...
i wondered how many of these mobile radars are roaming on the hill tops round the country.

 

[Jango]

what about those giraffe radars they had?
them telescopic...portable ones?
They had a few of them radars roaming up on the mountains around terbela dam..
every other day i used to ses them packing their tents and moving to another location..
they always parked their radar at the peak of a mountain from where they could see a very large area...
i wondered how many of these mobile radars are roaming on the hill tops round the country.

I saw them in Kahuta sometime ago.

Right in the thick forest, very well camouflaged.