Possible steps to counter the rising threat from IAF ?

[MastanKhan]

" In WW2 Germany had qualitative edge in its tanks etc. but was eventually outgunned by the sheer number of opponents...Initially Germans were too much for the Russians but eventually despite having the most prolific strategists and tacticians on the Russian front (Manstein, Guderian, Hoth etc...) they could not overcome the sheer numbers thrown at them"---quote from allgreen.


Hi,


It is not as simple as that-----it was the american indutial production power that won them the war----the german production lines were under fire but the u s production line was far far away......

In india pakistan scenario or otherwise as well---there will be other issues involved---the effect of seeing your partners---colleagues---course mates and others being shot up without firing a shot---without getting in the range to engage the elusive enemy---time and again---the enemy comes and goed at will---uses its extra reach and takes off and hides in the far horizon---will prove to be devastating on the morale of the fighting men.


Today----the designers of F 22 raptor are realizing that they made a mistake in installing a gun in the raptor---it has taken so much room and added weigght that other items could have been installed---now you guys would say---what are talking about----guess what ---the missiles of today are so deadly and advanced that it will take a tremendous amount of fortune and luck to escape them----secondly---the raptor was designed to hit and run----this was no close combat aircraft---so the technology has reached to such a stage that the USAF maynot want to be in close combat anymore.

Case in point again----M1A1 tank---if you can't touch it---you can't hurt it---it still has around 1500 meters at the max asdvantage over other tanks before they get to it and even then the 125 mm anti tank round maynot be enough to kill the M1A1.

No sirs----with the present day technology---once you cross over the minimum numbers threshold and you have room to manouver---quality will always overcome quantity. It will be just like shooting ducks in a gallery.

 

[qsaark]

Allow me to disagree with you on the invincibility theory of M1A1. There was a reason why US and allied forces relied so heavily on their A/G A-10s in the Gulf war. If M1-A1 was so invincible, they might have gone face to face with the much inferior Iraqi Army without the air support.

Abrams tank showed 'vulnerability' in Iraq
Janes Land Forces Abrams tank showed 'vulnerability' in Iraq - Jane's Land Forces News

Tim Ripley JDW Correspondent

The US Army's M1 Abrams main battle tank (MBT) top side, and rear armour "remains susceptible to penetration" and needs improving, according to the Tank and Automotive Command's (TACOM) Abrams programme manager office (PM Abrams).

In a report into the US Army's principal MBT's performance during Operation 'Iraqi Freedom', however, PM Abrams said the tank's frontal turret and hull armour continues to provide excellent crew protection.

"The tank performed extremely well providing excellent manoeuvre, firepower and overall crew protection", concluded the report, which has been seen by JDW. "Engines typically outlived expectancies and transmissions proved to be durable."

PM Abrams personnel deployed forward with US Army divisions during the war and collected first-hand feedback from tank crews to compile the report. There were "no catastrophic losses due to Iraqi direct or indirect fire weapons," but several tanks were destroyed due to secondary effects attributed to Iraqi weapon systems. US Army sources told JDW that the report was only "preliminary observations" rather than a definitive study and more work was continuing to further refine the exact causes of US tank losses in Iraq. Other US Army sources report that 14 Abrams tanks were damaged and two destroyed during the war.

Most M1 losses were attributed in the report to mechanical breakdown, or vehicles being stripped for parts or vandalised by Iraqis. There were "no reported cases" of an anti-tank guided missile being fired at any US Army vehicle.

Details of the M1 losses were given, including one where 25mm armour-piercing depleted uranium (AP-DU) rounds from an unidentified weapon disabled a US tank near Najaf after penetrating the engine compartment. Another Abrams was disabled near Karbala after a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) penetrated the rear engine compartment and one was lost in Baghdad after its external auxiliary power unit was set on fire by medium-calibre fire.

Left and right side non-ballistic skirts were repeatedly penetrated by anti-armour RPG fire, according to the report, but only cosmetic damage was caused when they were struck by anti-personnel RPG rounds. There were no reported hits on ballistic skirts and no reported instance of US tanks hitting an anti-tank mine. Turret ammunition blast doors worked as designed. In one documented instance where a turret-ready ammunition rack compartment was hit and main gun rounds ignited, the blast doors contained the explosion and crew survived unharmed except for fume inhalation.

 

[Zob]

see u can't make Micheal Shumacher beat me if i am driving a ferrari and he is driving a corrola... so it is wrong to assume that quality only depends on the machine...a man is only good as his machine....so yes PAF needs more generation 5 fighters....i know money is an issue i say for the next 2 years decrease the budget of the army and increase the budget of the PAF....

 

[Arsalan]

see u can't make Micheal Shumacher beat me if i am driving a ferrari and he is driving a corrola... so it is wrong to assume that quality only depends on the machine...a man is only good as his machine....so yes PAF needs more generation 5 fighters....i know money is an issue i say for the next 2 years decrease the budget of the army and increase the budget of the PAF....

this is the point!!

an extra ordinary pilot with a WVR capability F7 can never kill an average man flying a SU30 or an F18!!

 

[macintosh]

Quantity is the only option available for Pak considering Budget limitations.By the way PaF is mainly a defensive force so even Quantity can do the trick and then ofcourse they are buying J-10's and block 52.So a little attention towards quality and emphasizing on Quality can do the Job for PaF.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Quantity is the only option available for Pak considering Budget limitations.By the way PaF is mainly a defensive force so even Quantity can do the trick and then ofcourse they are buying J-10's and block 52.So a little attention towards quality and emphasizing on Quality can do the Job for PaF.

go home kid..

since when PAF became a defensive force? 65? 71? were they defensive at that time? in fact PAF conducted more raids then IAF. remember we used F-86 and few F-104 aganist mammoth 1000 fleet force.

 

[MastanKhan]

this is the point!!

an extra ordinary pilot with a WVR capability F7 can never kill an average man flying a SU30 or an F18!!

Hi,

When we are discussing quality / technology---I believe that we are talking about the killing zone of the more capable machine---the multiplier effect of the superior weaponery etc disappears when the higher quality object gets within the killing range of the lower quality machine.

Whereas the F18 or SU30 may have 80--100% kill ratio against.e the F7pg beyond visual range----but when it comes down to WVR the ratio may drop down to 60--40 or even go 50--50.

In close combat---the missile type first and then the skills of the pilot will take over.

 

[macintosh]

since when PAF became a defensive force? 65? 71? were they defensive at that time? in fact PAF conducted more raids then IAF. remember we used F-86 and few F-104 aganist mammoth 1000 fleet force.

65 71 were different.Paf's main agenda in current situation is defence of it's airspace rather than offence as is quite evident from the array of AC's they have.Do you believe that with Su-30 mki, mirage ,mig-29,as well as spyder missiles India will allow them to strike like they did in 65 71????
Actually the main thrust of Paf's strategy will be to protect it's own airforce and hence being on defensive.

 

[MastanKhan]

65 71 were different.Paf's main agenda in current situation is defence of it's airspace rather than offence as is quite evident from the array of AC's they have.Do you believe that with Su-30 mki, mirage ,mig-29,as well as spyder missiles India will allow them to strike like they did in 65 71????
Actually the main thrust of Paf's strategy will be to protect it's own airforce and hence being on defensive.

Sir,

Thankyou very much for being on this board. We are not seeking allowance from india if it would allow us to plan offensive missions----that is our right----we will strike in an offensive manner anywhere anytime at a place of our picking and at a time of our choice. That goes true for any air force which has any bit of gumption left in it---even though PAF states itself to be a defnsive air force---please don't trust us on that---please don't take our word for it---there will be deep strike missions into enemy territory at our discretion---. Spyders or SU 30's or MIG 29 etc etc are there no doubt---but it won't stop us from come avisiting.

PAF's main thrust will be to strike hard---strike deep at all the airbases that they they can get to---the enemy must feel the sting of the VIPER.

 

[macintosh]

Sir,

Thankyou very much for being on this board. We are not seeking allowance from india if it would allow us to plan offensive missions----that is our right----we will strike in an offensive manner anywhere anytime at a place of our picking and at a time of our choice. That goes true for any air force which has any bit of gumption left in it---even though PAF states itself to be a defnsive air force---please don't trust us on that---please don't take our word for it---there will be deep strike missions into enemy territory at our discretion---. Spyders or SU 30's or MIG 29 etc etc are there no doubt---but it won't stop us from come avisiting.

PAF's main thrust will be to strike hard---strike deep at all the airbases that they they can get to---the enemy must feel the sting of the VIPER.

I admit what you have said that it depends on Paf to decide whether it will be offensive or defensive and was wrong in my estimation.

 

[Khajur]

In this Quality or Quantity debate.Nobody is talking about Quality along with Quantity scenerio.I think thats more relevent now in todays situation even if any memeber like to discount it in the context of PAF vs IAF.

 

[Super Falcon]

see u can't make Micheal Shumacher beat me if i am driving a ferrari and he is driving a corrola... so it is wrong to assume that quality only depends on the machine...a man is only good as his machine....so yes PAF needs more generation 5 fighters....i know money is an issue i say for the next 2 years decrease the budget of the army and increase the budget of the PAF....

i fullly agree with u army is very very well equiped why not decrease their budget for only 2 years and give that budget to PAF or PN to buy good fighter jets and submarine after 2 years army willl get desired budget it is matter of using the minds and small things can bring much major change in PAF PAF needs atleast one best in the business fighter jet and we should stop relying on F 16 from here on we think F 16 as a secondary fighter jet in PAF

the time has came for paf to buy a double engine multi role fighter jet PAF since 20 years relayed havily on F 16 and old mirages and F7 even in era of last 90 our airforce havent buyed any new fighter jets all these years budget which paf got havent used to buy fighter jets any way

we nees atleast one of these this is my dream and it is reality too that PAf should choose some thing which is best in the bussiness i know money and relations with russia arent good but good governerce can do this if even we decease the number jf 17 from 250 to 150 im sure we can buy atleat 50 of these i mean one one of these

SU 37 Air superiority fighter jet not too expansive
Eurofighter very very expansive top of the line fighter jet
Rafale very good fighter jet but lacks experience in air to air fights


one of these if PAF can get im sure we dont need to buy fighter jets for next 20 years

Primary Fighter jets in PAF in my opinion

SU 37,Eurofighter,Rafale any one of them 50
J 10 Vegrous Dragon 40

Secondry fighter jets

F 16 50
JF 17 Thunder 150


Bomber

JH 7 40
Q5 20


will make PAF invenseible force

 

[Arsalan]

Hi,

When we are discussing quality / technology---I believe that we are talking about the killing zone of the more capable machine---the multiplier effect of the superior weaponery etc disappears when the higher quality object gets within the killing range of the lower quality machine.

Whereas the F18 or SU30 may have 80--100% kill ratio against.e the F7pg beyond visual range----but when it comes down to WVR the ratio may drop down to 60--40 or even go 50--50.

In close combat---the missile type first and then the skills of the pilot will take over.

but sir why will they allow us to come WVR, they are more in numbers, we will be confronting multiple threats and in this case how can a F7 or the JF17 beat the long rand of the SU30z??

 

[Zob]

see i will tell u an intresting story i heard i can't disclose from who or where.... i asked a person why india didnot carry out any surgical strike....?

Ans: well india doesn't know how we will retaliate before the world community intervines and stops the brawl between us two nuclear powers!!

Ques: Can we honestly bank on the PAF to strike back knowing its limitations such as no BVRs nothing except F-16s to fight back with...?

Ans: WELL IF THE JAPANESE CAN DO SUCIDE MISSIONS....I THINK WE ARE IN AN ERA WHERE WE CAN GET 2 OR 3 PLANES SHOT DOWN BUT WILL DEFINTELY GET THE STRIKE PACKAGE THROUGH....!

and Sir mr.Mastan Khan ...the reason why F-22 RAPTOR has guns is because u cannot put unlimited missiles on it....let me attach a link and i think in part 6 or 7 they say that gun to gun dogfights will never end.....the traditional dogfights will remain when two fighters with equal capability go head to head...for example when a raptor fights a raptor having used up all there missiles the traditional gun fight will take place....

 

[All-Green]

" In WW2 Germany had qualitative edge in its tanks etc. but was eventually outgunned by the sheer number of opponents...Initially Germans were too much for the Russians but eventually despite having the most prolific strategists and tacticians on the Russian front (Manstein, Guderian, Hoth etc...) they could not overcome the sheer numbers thrown at them"---quote from allgreen.


Hi,


It is not as simple as that-----it was the american indutial production power that won them the war----the german production lines were under fire but the u s production line was far far away......

In india pakistan scenario or otherwise as well---there will be other issues involved---the effect of seeing your partners---colleagues---course mates and others being shot up without firing a shot---without getting in the range to engage the elusive enemy---time and again---the enemy comes and goed at will---uses its extra reach and takes off and hides in the far horizon---will prove to be devastating on the morale of the fighting men.


Today----the designers of F 22 raptor are realizing that they made a mistake in installing a gun in the raptor---it has taken so much room and added weigght that other items could have been installed---now you guys would say---what are talking about----guess what ---the missiles of today are so deadly and advanced that it will take a tremendous amount of fortune and luck to escape them----secondly---the raptor was designed to hit and run----this was no close combat aircraft---so the technology has reached to such a stage that the USAF maynot want to be in close combat anymore.

Case in point again----M1A1 tank---if you can't touch it---you can't hurt it---it still has around 1500 meters at the max asdvantage over other tanks before they get to it and even then the 125 mm anti tank round maynot be enough to kill the M1A1.

No sirs----with the present day technology---once you cross over the minimum numbers threshold and you have room to manouver---quality will always overcome quantity. It will be just like shooting ducks in a gallery.

Salaams Sir

The key is to cross the minimum threshold with quality, something both of us will agree upon.
In my mind i am keeping our economy in consideration and anything based on the buying power of an economic powerhouse is not applicable in our case so considering multiple squadrons of Rafaels is out of the question.

I think we are saying the same thing but let me clarify what i meant.
Whereas a superior machine will wreak havoc with inferior ones, still opposition in numbers can contain a superior machine and with some quality injection shall prevail.
However, this all depends on the delicate balance of the numbers involved.
(A lion can take on 2-3 hyenas but more than that and it is in serious trouble if it does not give).

It took 4-5 Shermans to kill a German Tiger Tank, since 3-4 Shermans were sacrificed in the battle to ensure that one got a clean hit on the relatively vulnerable area of the Tiger.
Germans also pushed the Panther (lighter tank) and the combination of Tiger/Panther was brilliant even though eventually the Russian numbers overcame them.
Germany used their Armour very shrewdly by concentrating them at vulnerable areas rather than amassing them all across the front.
That is the tactic of the force weaker in numbers (no matter what the quality). The flexible defense was to ensure that the front line was not overstretched.
It is a tribute to the skill of the Germans and the quality of their machines that they inflicted so much damage on their opponents, but still the numbers did push them back (even if it was due to America's industry stepping in).

I think that we need to have numbers in a healthy ratio and certainly not poorer than 1:3 for that would be too much.

We need 150 to 200 4.5 generation aircraft and J-10 fills the role.
As opposed to this a 90million dollar Rafael would make it quite impossible for us to reach this number. F22, F35 and Su series really does not seem likely for us to procure.

A high tech mid tech combination is what we need with healthy numbers to make it easy for us to maintain, upgrade and be enough of a threat to keep our enemy on its toes and ensure that it spends its maximum to feel safe

Our tactics should always be aggressive, if i am to draw a parallel air force is the cavalry of modern war even more so than tanks...no one ever heard of a defensive cavalry...it does not work that way.
We shall have to send in enough numbers in concentration to overpower/dominate our enemy at their weak spots for the mission time; for this we shall need both quality supported by quantity. F-16,J-10, JF17 combination.
PAF shall always have to be a decisive strike force when provoked by our enemies, no way can we sit back and defend only. We shall have to attack their weak spots and lure our enemy to strike back and then counterattack.
We cannot do all of this without attacking.
In its very nature an air force has to be aggressive.