Possible steps to counter the rising threat from IAF ?

[Basel]

You really think the PAF could get through the IAF's air defences on the Western front AND past the MKI (and MiG-29UPG) SQDs based West and Central India? I was imagining something a little more cunning i.e. flying due south then East in an attempt to fly past some of the most militarised airspace in the world.

PAF will only enter deep if it is extremely necessary or they have destroyed assets with Standoff weapons which are major threat to their fleet.

 

[temp1994]

Operational planning[edit]
The distance between Israeli military bases and the reactor site was significant—over 1,600 km (990 mi).[51] The Israeli planes would have to violate Jordanian and/or Saudiairspace in a covert flight over foreign territory, making mid-air refueling unfeasible.[37][52][53] The Israelis eventually concluded that a squadron of heavily fueled and heavily armed F-16As, with a group of F-15As to provide air cover and fighter support, could perform a surgical strike to eliminate the reactor site without having to refuel.

The person who made this entry into Wikipedia has either made a mistake in Unit conversions, or calculated distance of return trip also.

Osirak is 900Km away from Tel Aviv, not 900Miles.

Distance Calculator - How far is it from Tel Aviv – Israel...

Still makes it a one-way trip for the top end of your fighter fleet, leaving your skies wide open to the IAF who would decimate your military installations in retaliation.

Even by Osirak's standard ( which was extreme case ), F-16 could strike only 1800Km in one way strike. This while ignoring that F-16 of Israel did not had Weapon + Fuel load on return trip and thus consumed much less fuel than loaded aircraft.

 

[ziaulislam]

PAF will only enter deep if it is extremely necessary or they have destroyed assets with Standoff weapons which are major threat to their fleet.

exactly, there is absolutely no reason for PAF to strike deep in india. but this was merely a hypothetical discussion about F-16 range and capabilities

 

[ziaulislam]

The person who made this entry into Wikipedia has either made a mistake in Unit conversions, or calculated distance of return trip also.

Osirak is 900Km away from Tel Aviv, not 900Miles.

Distance Calculator - How far is it from Tel Aviv – Israel...



Even by Osirak's standard ( which was extreme case ), F-16 could strike only 1800Km in one way strike. This while ignoring that F-16 of Israel did not had Weapon + Fuel load on return trip and thus consumed much less fuel than loaded aircraft.

oh God, it shows the route not the distance. IAF had to take a tougher route to avoid a series of radars

 

[Basel]

I didn't realise the discussion had become about the range of the F-16, I thought it was about the ability of the PAF to hit IT hubs in the South of India which they simply cannot. The F-16's range is thus entirely irrelevant.

Why PAF need to hit that way long?? what benefit it will give? If there is any benefit from hitting that long distance then it will be done by PN's subs with SLCMs not by PAF although it is not needed in case of war as history shows.

 

[ziaulislam]

so stupid, to deny straight forward facts. i am leaving

 

[Abingdonboy]

no, the discussion was that banglore is not 2300kms but 1600kms and that PAF hypothetically can hit it provided there been no Strong IAF.

Well okay then, I don't know what the point is in such a discussion though. It's like saying we could walk through a lion's den unscathed provided there were no lions in there.

There is a strong IAF so the point is how (if at all) you overcome this, not about the theoretical ranges of your a/c. That's like Indians saying that they could target Beijing with the IAF's MKIs because the Chabua AFS is only around 2,500 KM from Beijing and the MKI's have an unruffled range of around 3,000 KM. Do you think any Indians are deluded enough to entertain such absurd notions?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why PAF need to hit that way long?? what benefit it will give?

This is what was suggested by @MastanKhan and @A.Rafay a few pages back, see for yourself. This is what we were trying to demonstrate the stupidity in.

 

[Basel]

@Storm Force this proves that PAF's F-16s have CFTs and see the weapons load too and calculate how long and hard they can hit.

 

[temp1994]

oh God, it shows the route not the distance. IAF had to take a tougher route to avoid a series of radars

IAF did not deviated much from least distance path.

​

I calculated this distance using google earth and it is coming out to be 1100 Km, not 1600.

 

[ziaulislam]

IAF did not deviated much from least distance path.

View attachment 149114
​

I calculated this distance using google earth and it is coming out to be 1100 Km, not 1600.

most sources say its 1600km and we donot even know the excat path but some how a geniou like you got 1100km... i played multiple line games on google earth and it came from 1300-1800km. obviously i dont have the flight maps to be sure, can you share the maps with me too from the classified mission

 

[Donatello]

Your f16s never return to Pakistan after a deep strike in south Indian IT hubs... Next point is..How a strike in one IT hub ends our IT industry???
Almost all IT companies are indian with Indians as employers.. They get projects from foriegn countries... The only thing customers want is desired product in desired time line.. If an IT company can deliver the project in time, they will get more business( 30% of resources ofalmost every IT companies are idle at a given time-consult anyone in Indian IT industry).. Also our IT export is only ~30 billion dollar (2012)..
Our economy is domestic market driven unlike China.. Companies investing India seeing huge domestic market.. It will continue as long as here is market..
Anyway a war will be a hard blow to our economy.. But your country even not have resources to sustain a war.. War will fought in your land.. Max you can do is some missile strikes and numerically limited air strikes..

Your economy is no where 'domestic market' driven. You are too poor for that, so is China. When recession hit USA, they were concerned that their local consumption can no longer sustain the whole country. Welcome to 21st century.

majority of your IT/Pharma work is exported to countries which can afford it. Once that dries out, you pretty much have nothing for export. Hence your PM Modi going all crazy about Make in India

Pakistan doesn't have to target an IT hub directly. A single attack near it, would cast fear, and all those $$ contracts coming will evaporate. If you had the courage or capability to go to war, you would have gone to war. Western companies don't do business with countries that are willing to play with Nukes. India does not export anything of value that the world could not get elsewhere. Please tell me one thing, high value and in high demand, that India produces which the rest of the world cannot make up for if the supplies got disrupted? Is it oil? No, Is it gas? No, Is it high tech defense equipment? No, is it reliable, fast, efficient and safe automobiles that can out beat Germans/US/French/Japan/Korea? No. Is it a ship building nation? Nope. Nope. Is it a country producing wide body or narrow body airliners?, nope.

Look at USA, WMDs were a bullshyt excuse to start a war, yet they did. Because they could.


Kid, don't be fooled by this 'fast growing india', the job is not even 1/4 done. You are fast growing, because you had nothing to begin with. There is a reason why the West is happy with 2-3% growth rates, but for developing economies with poverty as huge as India, need 7-8% to 'feel better'

 

[Donatello]

I can see where you are coming from but I think you are being a bit optimistic. No way will $1 BN buy 100 F-16s, even if they are second hand, what about spares? Weapons? Training? The cost of raising related infrastructure? Buying a second hand fighter is not like buying a second hand banger- there are a lot of hidden costs. I mean India is spending $1BN and "only" getting 16 Naval helicopters (S-70Bs) for example.

And I have to wonder if getting second hand machines is really the best strategy for the PAF, yes it makes sense from a unit price point of view but what about life cycle costs? What about the penalty that all these birds will be towards the end of their service lives? In under a decade the PAF will be in just a big a mess but this time with hundreds of F-16s that need replacing urgently.

I actually think this is why the JF-17 was a good idea for the PAF- a very cheap fighter that the PAF could buy new and in relatively large numbers.



You really think the PAF can touch the east/south coast of India (where the IT hubs are)? This is sheer lunacy of the highest order. Not only would this almost certainly be one way ticket for all PAF birds,your birds don't have the range to fly from Pakistan and all the way across mainland India and how exactly do you think your birds will make it through Western and Central air commands without being detected/intercepted?

The biggest load of nonsense I have heard for a long, long time.




And you guys really think India and the world would just sit by and let you guys do this?

The world wouldn't sit by if Pakistan was the aggressor, but if India is the aggressor, then all bets are off.

Secondly, Mumbai/Pune is more important than Bangalore/Chennai/Kolkata/Hyderabad anyway.

Third, when you are small and your survival is at stake, you don't give a shyt whether you will live or die. Isn't that the whole motto of a military fighting arm, especially those who spearhead in to the battle? British troops knew they were going to be killed in German occupied zones in WWII, but still went, right?

Our boys would love to have Nishan-e-Haider after their name.

A pilot in F-16 BLK52 or JF-17 today has equally the same chance of survival in modern AD/BVR environment as a pilot in SU30MKI/MIG29/Mirage 2000

 

[Basel]

@temp1994 @ziaulislam If this helps about combat radius of F-16 block-50 & above with CFTs.

Quote:

The Block 52/60 F-16 aircraft procured by Israel, Greece and the UAE have structural, plumbing, and wiring provisions for the Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT). Attached to the upper surface of the F-16's fuselage, the tank's lower surface conform to the aircraft's shape. This arrangement allows the CFTs to be relatively light weight, since nothing is suspended from them. With an empty weight of 900 pounds, tank set holds 450 gallons (about 3,000 pounds) of additional JP-5/8 fuel. A CFT set carries 50 percent more fuel than the centerline external fuel tank, with only 12 percent of the drag. The CFT can dramatically increase the operational radius of the aircraft for long range missions. The aircraft can fly a long range strike mission with full weapon's load, and engage in air combat when external (370 Gal) fuel tanks have been dropped. The CFT, along with external 370 gallon jetissonable tanks or 600 gallon non-jetissonable external tanks are added with the CFT, provides the F-16 with a 60-70 percent increase in operational radius. At subsonic speeds the CFT have neglible effect on the aircraft agility, thought the drag increases in proportion to speed at supersonic speeds. The aircraft fitted with CFT retain nearly the full handling qualities, flight limits, and signature. The CFT set can be fitted or removed in less than two hours. The tanks are are built under the Peace Marble V program by IAI as a sole source to Lockheed Martin's specification.

Lockheed Martin began F-16 flight demonstration of an initial CFT shape in 1994 to investigate performance and handling quality characteristics. Subsequent wind tunnel testing led to the current external lines, which were initially validated in flight testing of high angle-of-attack handling characteristics at Edwards AFB, CA. Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company completed the first phase of flight testing of its new conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) for its F-16 multirole fighter in September 2001. Flight testing with aerodynamic shapes was conducted on an F-16C at Eglin Air Force Base, FL, from March through August. A total of 24 test flights and 65 flight test hours were accomplished, and testing involved loads, flutter, and stability and control.

There are conflicting reports concerning the F-16I combat radius, but the most reliable source reports a combat radius of 2,100 km, on par with the F-15I. The Israeli military would not disclose the exact range of the jet, but one senior air force officer said, "it can reach the capitals of all the countries in the region." One report says that "it has an 820 km non-refueling radius of operation, sufficient to reach both Libya and Iran" -- but a glance at a map reveals that 820 kilometers from Israel is short of Baghdad, and far short of the 1,500 kilometers need to reach Tehran. One report suggest that the F-16I has an unrefueled combat strike radius of 1,640 kilometers without refueling. Another report relates that the external fuel capacity in conformal fuel tanks increases the aircraft range to 800 miles (1,500 km). One published reports states that the external fuel tanks above the central fuselage, extend the range of the jet and the reach of the Israeli air force by 25 percent.

Unquote:

F-16I Sufa (Storm)

 

[Donatello]

@temp1994 @ziaulislam If this helps about combat radius of F-16 block-50 & above with CFTs.

Quote:

The Block 52/60 F-16 aircraft procured by Israel, Greece and the UAE have structural, plumbing, and wiring provisions for the Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT). Attached to the upper surface of the F-16's fuselage, the tank's lower surface conform to the aircraft's shape. This arrangement allows the CFTs to be relatively light weight, since nothing is suspended from them. With an empty weight of 900 pounds, tank set holds 450 gallons (about 3,000 pounds) of additional JP-5/8 fuel. A CFT set carries 50 percent more fuel than the centerline external fuel tank, with only 12 percent of the drag. The CFT can dramatically increase the operational radius of the aircraft for long range missions. The aircraft can fly a long range strike mission with full weapon's load, and engage in air combat when external (370 Gal) fuel tanks have been dropped. The CFT, along with external 370 gallon jetissonable tanks or 600 gallon non-jetissonable external tanks are added with the CFT, provides the F-16 with a 60-70 percent increase in operational radius. At subsonic speeds the CFT have neglible effect on the aircraft agility, thought the drag increases in proportion to speed at supersonic speeds. The aircraft fitted with CFT retain nearly the full handling qualities, flight limits, and signature. The CFT set can be fitted or removed in less than two hours. The tanks are are built under the Peace Marble V program by IAI as a sole source to Lockheed Martin's specification.

Lockheed Martin began F-16 flight demonstration of an initial CFT shape in 1994 to investigate performance and handling quality characteristics. Subsequent wind tunnel testing led to the current external lines, which were initially validated in flight testing of high angle-of-attack handling characteristics at Edwards AFB, CA. Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company completed the first phase of flight testing of its new conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) for its F-16 multirole fighter in September 2001. Flight testing with aerodynamic shapes was conducted on an F-16C at Eglin Air Force Base, FL, from March through August. A total of 24 test flights and 65 flight test hours were accomplished, and testing involved loads, flutter, and stability and control.

There are conflicting reports concerning the F-16I combat radius, but the most reliable source reports a combat radius of 2,100 km, on par with the F-15I. The Israeli military would not disclose the exact range of the jet, but one senior air force officer said, "it can reach the capitals of all the countries in the region." One report says that "it has an 820 km non-refueling radius of operation, sufficient to reach both Libya and Iran" -- but a glance at a map reveals that 820 kilometers from Israel is short of Baghdad, and far short of the 1,500 kilometers need to reach Tehran. One report suggest that the F-16I has an unrefueled combat strike radius of 1,640 kilometers without refueling. Another report relates that the external fuel capacity in conformal fuel tanks increases the aircraft range to 800 miles (1,500 km). One published reports states that the external fuel tanks above the central fuselage, extend the range of the jet and the reach of the Israeli air force by 25 percent.

Unquote:

F-16I Sufa (Storm)

I think they mean 800 nautical miles which is 1490km, 800miles is 1200 km or so.