PN U-Boats!

[Koga Ryu]

Who me ???
just follow the post and u wll get to knw who went off topic ,i just asked a simple questions fully regarding the topic

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It funny how you advise me to follow the topic and you probably did and went off it, for sake off argument. How typical Indian mentality.

 

[Penguin]

Read below how 054a was built mostly by stealing foreign technologies.

Mmm, quit an accusation. And a clever switch in topic from COPY OF to STEALING. I do note there isn't a single credible open source listed to back up your post/argument. All the worse because parts of your text are clearly copied from some article(s), possibly e.g. "Analysis: Sino-Russia military ties" by Andrei Chang a.k.a Andrei Pinkov, Yihang Chang or simply PKF in different circles (chief editor of Kanwa Defense)

The Russian state military import/ export agency Rosvoorouzhenie and 956E production Severnoye Design Bureau were shocked and angered when the 054A upgrade to the new People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) 054 frigate appeared in 2006. At first it appeared to have four Russian-supplied systems that had been on earlier Chinese Luyang guided missile destroyers (DDGs). In reality, the four complex systems were illegal Chinese copies never before seen, and all were on a new serial production series of frigates.

Stealing (illegally copying) foreign technology is of course bad while buying foreign technology or licence producing it is obviously not bad. But the fact of the matter is that either way the technology in question is NOT domestically developed.

The Sovremennyi high-technology combat systems copied by China on the surprising 2006 054A upgrade are the MGK-335 sonar, the Fregate M2EM three-dimensional (3-D) radar, Mineral ME (Bandstand) tracking radars and the Russian MR90 missile guidance tracker-illuminator for the SAN-7 Rif-M Shtil surface-to-air missile (SAM).

The Sovremenny design and armament are dated (1980s). While 956EM may be more modern than the original, they cetrainly aren't top of the line. SA-N-7 (nato designation) is called Shtil (not RIF-M, which is a different missile system althogether, found on the pair of Type 051C destroyes). This type of error doesn't bode well for the quality of your source. Further, where is the proof MGK-335, M2EM, Mineral ME and MR90 were in fact illegally copied, rather than e.g. licence produced, or developed indegenously but with Russian assistance?

At this point, I would like to interject the following:

Severnoye and the Type 054 Frigate

Russian sources noted that in contrast to other firms, the Severnoye ship design and construction company played a consulting role in the development of the PLAN Type 054A JIANKAI frigate. These sources noted Severnoye’s role was confined to assisting the integration of Russian systems on to the ship. These sources noted that the Type 054’s design was largely a product of indigenous Chinese design bureau. However, the Type 054A also uses a full suite of Russian weapon systems, including the Shtil-1 vertical launched SAM, the MINERAL-E passive radar and data link system, and the FREGAT long-range search radar. The helicopter hanger is large enough to support a Kamov Ka-28 size helicopter. Two Type 054A frigates were under construction as of late 2006.

Source: PLA Navy Carrier Update and Euro-Naval Notes by Richard Fisher, Jr. ARMS SHOW REPORTS. Published on November 7th, 2006.

Clearly, this suggests an entirely different story!

Designed by Morphizpribor Central Research Institute, the complete MGK-335 sonar suite has a towed variable depth sonar (VDS) in addition to its hull array. Because no stern VDS hoist is visible, the Chinese 956E ships must have the reduced MGK 335MS with only the hull sonar dome. This complex 1.5-10.9 kilohertz medium-frequency sonar has sufficient power and digital signal processing to enable near-convergence zone detection capability.

System info: no relevance to your claim.

The first PLAN vessel to use an imported sonar set was the 2002 052B DDG.

Really? IIRC, the 052 (Luhu class) destroyers (commissioned 1994, 1996) are fitted with two types of sonar systems: the FRENCH DUBV-23 (SJD-8/9) medium-frequency hull-mounted sonar for active search and attack, and the FRENCH DUBV-43 (ESS-1) towed medium-frequency variable depth sonar (VDS) for active attack.

The 054A frigate in 2006 was the first illegal reverse-engineered version manufactured in China.

No evidence.

From Sinodefence:

The Type 054A is reportedly fitted with a Russian MGK-335 fixed sonar suite, including Bull Horn active and Whale Tongue passive hull-mounted, medium frequency search and attack sonar. Due to limited information available, this claim cannot be confirmed.

In fact, most online sources would have 054 and 054A have the same sonar. So there too the above statement about the 054A would appear to be incorrect (054 is also quoted as having MGK-335 and how can one tell whether this is bought or reverse engineered?)

The Fregate M2EM 3-D radar offers two channels in E and H bands that can track more than 100 contacts with maximum range of 300 kilometers (200 miles). The equipment and antenna weigh 6.6 tons and 2.3 tons, respectively. It was designed by Salyut Moscow and first provided to China on four 956E ships in 2000.

System info: no relevance to your claim.

China imported 10 sets of the Fregate 3-D radar, with two placed on 052B DDGs in 2002 and two placed on 051C DDGs in 2006. The first reverse-engineered Chinese copy appeared on the 054A frigate in 2006.

10-4=6 sets left. Where have these 6 other sets gone?
According to wiki, there are currently 6 054A active.

The Russian MR90 missile guidance tracker-illuminator for the SAN-7 Rif-M Shtil SAM was designed by the Altair Marine Radio-Electronics Research Institute JSC.

System info: no relevance to your claim.

China imported eight S-band MR90s from Russia for four 956E DDGs in 2000.

No 956 DDGs were built in China! Each imported 956 (delivered 1999, 2000 and 2005, 2006 respectively) had 6 MR90s installed. If 8 MR90s were imported in 2000, they clearly were for the 052Bs, both of which were launched in 2002 and IOC in 2004.

Two MR90 radars were tested for several years on the Chinese experimental ship 891.

So? If this was prior to 2000, then more than 8 systems were available, obviously.

The first installation of a Chinese copy of the MR90 supported the HQ-16 vertical launch system (VLS) on the 054A in 2000.

Interesting, since the first 054 is from 2003 and the first 054A is from 2008!

This touches on what may be another piece of reverse engineering.

Or may not

The four rectangular VLS modules of the HQ-16 on the 054A appear identical to the U.S. Navy MK 41 VLS, but the United States has not commented on the obvious similarity.

May, appear .... weazel-words! Nothing solid.

The MK 41 has been exported for many years to numerous nations, and a copy could have been expected sooner—such as on the 052C Luyangs.

All US allies. Which of those would provide it to the Chinese for reverse engineering? Indeed, a copy has emerged: from France, called Sylver.

In fact, this rectangular-hatch VLS has been evaluated, along with an MR90 tracking radar, on the 6,000-ton weapon experimental Wuhu-B hull 891 for more than a year.

So? A circular VLS was also tested on this ship, and this appeared on the 052C. Does that make it a copy?

Some experts assumed that this MR90 was a Soviet import, but it probably is the Chinese copy undergoing testing prior to installation on the 054A.

Why is it "probably" the chinese copy? What indications thereof? Unsubstantiated claim.

Although the type of VLS SAM has not been identified, it would probably be the SAN-7, which is associated with the MR90 illuminator.

HQ-16, a joint development project between China and Russia that 'apparently' represents a further evolution of the Russian SA-17/SA-N-12 Grizzly / Buk-M1-2
SA-17 GRIZZLY

The 054A frigate has the Type 730 close-in weapon system (CIWS), based on the Netherlands Goalkeeper, which uses the U.S. GE GAU Phalanx gun.

More accurate would be 'looks like', as there is nothing to actually connect Type 730 to Goalkeeper. The 30mm GE GAU-8 is NOT the same gatling gun that is used in the US 20mm Phalanx CIWS.

The Type 730 was on the 052B and 052C in 2002 and 2003, and it was on the 051C prior to the 054A frigate in 2006.

Adds nothing

Type 730 radars are very similar to the Signaal I-band search radar and dual I- and K-band track radar.

Type 730 doesn't have an on-mount search radar! Instead it has a tracking radar plus an ELOP-director (which Goalkeeper doesn't have).
The tracking radar is a development of one already in use as independent gun fire directing radar (for Type 76A) on a variety of other chinese vessels (I-band Type 347G, believed to be based on the Italian Selenia RTN-20X/SPG 74, part of Dardo twin 40mm), and has nothing to do with Goalkeeper.
For each pair of Type 730 firing units there is a H-band Type 364 target acquisition radar.
http://www.china-defense.com/naval/plan_radar_ew/PLA-N%20Radar and EW.pdf
Type 730 Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) - SinoDefence.com

These recent stunning reverse-engineering successes do cause complications.

IF they are indeed reverse engineered

One result is that combat system sensors are not matched on the hull and machinery generators, notably for MTU and SEMT diesels.

I don't see how the hull and power generation have anything to do with sensors.

Shaanxi Diesel Plant, also called Factory 408, has been licensed to serially produce French SEMT Pielstick and German MTU series diesels since 1974. In 1989, a second factory, Shanghai Hudong Heavy Machinery Company, was authorized to produce PA6STC diesels. Four of these diesels are on each 054/054A frigate.
SEMT Pielstick PC2-5 series diesels have 6-, 12- and 16-valve models, and MTU 956 diesels have 12-, 16- and 20-valve models (TB82, -32 and -92). The 052A has MTU 12-valve 1163 TB83 diesels, and the 052B has MTU 20-valve 956 TB92 diesels.

Factoids

Chinese factories produced them, and difficulties have been reported with them.

They are complex items to produce. So what?

After all of these years, China still imports some SEMT and MTU diesel components from France and Germany.

So what? (IIRC, China also still imports a lot of weapons and sensors from Russia and other countries)

During 2006 and 2007, China imported 15 to 20 sets of German MTU 16-valve and 8-valve 396 SE84 diesels for new submarines such as the modern Yuan diesel boats. The same situation exists with China importing parts for 24 model 16 PA6STC diesels, which were used on the newest 054/054A frigates.

Factoids

Apparently China has not yet successfully produced these submarine or surface ship diesels without imported components.

So what? Incidentally, forgot to mention the gas-turbines on the new destroyers (all imports: from US and Ukraine)

Other notable Chinese PLAN reverse engineerings of foreign weapon systems include the Crotale/HQ-7/Castor C radar. Two sets of Crotale missile launchers were imported from France in the 1980s. Crotale missile launchers and associated Thomson CSF DRBC 32F Castor C fire control radars were installed on the Luhu DDG 112 in 1991. An upgraded Luda, hull 109 added a topside 8-round reload box aft of the launcher. The six Jiangwei II frigates launched from 1991 to 2000 had HQ-7 by China, with no reload storage. In 2002 the Crotale was replaced with indigenous HQ-7A on DDG 112. The 1993 Luhu DDG 113 and 1997 Luhai DDG 167 HQ-7 had reload rounds in below-deck hatches, which was not even available in French Crotale systems.

The french don't seem to have complained, which makes you wonder if they didn't strike a deal....

Two SS-12 variable depth or dipping sonars were imported from France in 1974. Three SS-12s were installed on Z-9 shipboard helicopters, and in 1987 Haiju craft hulls 688 and 697 replaced aft 57-millimeter guns with the SS-12.

See earlier remark "first PLAN vessel to use an imported sonar set "

China procured one French Thomson CSF TAVITAC CDS computer, which was installed on the Luda I destroyer DD 105 upgrade in 1987. The first Chinese copy of TAVITAC was installed on Luhu DDGs 112 and 113 as the ZJK4 in 1991 and 1993.

So what?

China imported 40 A244 torpedoes from Italy around 1980. An improved A244/S was produced in 1984. Reportedly, the A244/S is produced under Italian license as the Yu-7 antisubmarine warfare (ASW) torpedo. Some reports of U.S. Navy MK 44 torpedoes being produced by China could be mistaken because both the MK 44 and the A244 have a similar shroud around the propeller. Some references state that Yu-7 PLAN ASW torpedoes are copies of the U.S. Navy MK 46 Mod 2, four of which were sent to China in 1986 for co-production. Because the sale was below the $14 million Arms Export Control Act threshold, Congress did not review the deal. Negotiations between the United States and China broke down, and Chinese attempts to change the hardware to metric measurements reportedly stopped in 1988.

So what?

i hope this answered ur question regarding type 054a and chinese superiority as well .

I don't think I claimed chinese superiority anywhere. I asked you what type of russian ship the 054A was based on, since you claimed it to be a copy of a russian ship. An answer to which you've not provided. Which is hardly surprising as the ship is not based on a russian design.

for shivalik plz go through this :

You really don't have to inform me about Shivalik.

The P17 is an enlarged and modified version of the Russian P1135.6 Talwar {Krivak III} Class frigates. It was jointly designed by the NDB and Russia's Severnoye Project Design Bureau (Severnoye Proyektno-Konstruktorskoye Bjuro - SPKB), the designers of the P1135.6 frigate.

Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Project 17 (Shivalik) Class

Propulsion: 2 x Pielstick 16 PA6 STC Diesel engines & 2 x GE LM2500 boost turbines in CODOG configuration.

The LM2500 would be assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The order for the first three ship sets of two 16 PA6 STC engines was placed by MDL to the Pielstick Indian licensee, Kirloskar Oil Engines Ltd. (KOEL) at the beginning of 2000. The first two engines will be manufactured in France by S.E.M.T. Pielstick, while the subsequent engines will be manufactured in India by KOEL in their Nasik engine plant.
Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Project 17 (Shivalik) Class

IIRC, in March 2009, shortly after Obama became US president, the commissioning of the first frigate was delayed due to the stoppage of fitting the turbines due to GE's failure to secure permission from the US Government for such installation. After two months, permission was granted for the installation.
Shivalik Class Frigates - Naval Technology

MR-760 Fregat M2EM 3-D radar (IMPORT: Russia)
MR-90 Orekh radar (IMPORT:Russia)
BEL APARNA (a local development of the Russian Garpun-Bal FC radar.)
ATAS/Thales Sintra towed array systems (IMPORT)

OTO Melera 76mm SRGM (Italian design, licence produced )
2 x AK-630 30mm guns (import russia)
32 x Barak SAM (import Israel + ELTA radars)
9M317 (SA-N-12) SAM (imports Russia)
8 x Klub/Brahmos missiles (co-development with Russia)
RBU-6000 (RPK-8) + 90R ASW rockets (import Russia)
DTA-53-956 torpedoes (import Russia)

as far as su30 is concerned we never said we made it.the contribution of drdo was more of a software based to suit the indian needs and to give it a edge in electronic warfare (remember it can act as a mini awacs).yes it has a lot of israeli and french avionics as well .we buyed the licensed version never il;legally copied it and boasted abt it..

All besides the point.

at the end .plz stick to the topic

My response to your post is just that, as a response to your post. So, if my post is off-topic, then that is because your post was off-topic to begin with. It is highly inappropriate therefore for you to then accuse me of not sticking to the topic of this thread. I advise you to be careful who you addres in this manner.

 

[tidu]

self delete

 

[tidu]

Mmm, quit an accusation. And a clever switch in topic from COPY OF to STEALING. I do note there isn't a single credible open source listed to back up your post/argument. All the worse because parts of your text are clearly copied from some article(s), possibly e.g. "Analysis: Sino-Russia military ties" by Andrei Chang a.k.a Andrei Pinkov, Yihang Chang or simply PKF in different circles (chief editor of Kanwa Defense)



Stealing (illegally copying) foreign technology is of course bad while buying foreign technology or licence producing it is obviously not bad. But the fact of the matter is that either way the technology in question is NOT domestically developed.


The Sovremenny design and armament are dated (1980s). While 956EM may be more modern than the original, they cetrainly aren't top of the line. SA-N-7 (nato designation) is called Shtil (not RIF-M, which is a different missile system althogether, found on the pair of Type 051C destroyes). This type of error doesn't bode well for the quality of your source. Further, where is the proof MGK-335, M2EM, Mineral ME and MR90 were in fact illegally copied, rather than e.g. licence produced, or developed indegenously but with Russian assistance?

At this point, I would like to interject the following:

Source: PLA Navy Carrier Update and Euro-Naval Notes by Richard Fisher, Jr. ARMS SHOW REPORTS. Published on November 7th, 2006.

Clearly, this suggests an entirely different story!


System info: no relevance to your claim.


Really? IIRC, the 052 (Luhu class) destroyers (commissioned 1994, 1996) are fitted with two types of sonar systems: the FRENCH DUBV-23 (SJD-8/9) medium-frequency hull-mounted sonar for active search and attack, and the FRENCH DUBV-43 (ESS-1) towed medium-frequency variable depth sonar (VDS) for active attack.


No evidence.

From Sinodefence:


In fact, most online sources would have 054 and 054A have the same sonar. So there too the above statement about the 054A would appear to be incorrect (054 is also quoted as having MGK-335 and how can one tell whether this is bought or reverse engineered?)


System info: no relevance to your claim.


10-4=6 sets left. Where have these 6 other sets gone?
According to wiki, there are currently 6 054A active.


System info: no relevance to your claim.


No 956 DDGs were built in China! Each imported 956 (delivered 1999, 2000 and 2005, 2006 respectively) had 6 MR90s installed. If 8 MR90s were imported in 2000, they clearly were for the 052Bs, both of which were launched in 2002 and IOC in 2004.


So? If this was prior to 2000, then more than 8 systems were available, obviously.


Interesting, since the first 054 is from 2003 and the first 054A is from 2008!


Or may not


May, appear .... weazel-words! Nothing solid.


All US allies. Which of those would provide it to the Chinese for reverse engineering? Indeed, a copy has emerged: from France, called Sylver.


So? A circular VLS was also tested on this ship, and this appeared on the 052C. Does that make it a copy?


Why is it "probably" the chinese copy? What indications thereof? Unsubstantiated claim.


HQ-16, a joint development project between China and Russia that 'apparently' represents a further evolution of the Russian SA-17/SA-N-12 Grizzly / Buk-M1-2
SA-17 GRIZZLY


More accurate would be 'looks like', as there is nothing to actually connect Type 730 to Goalkeeper. The 30mm GE GAU-8 is NOT the same gatling gun that is used in the US 20mm Phalanx CIWS.


Adds nothing


Type 730 doesn't have an on-mount search radar! Instead it has a tracking radar plus an ELOP-director (which Goalkeeper doesn't have).
The tracking radar is a development of one already in use as independent gun fire directing radar (for Type 76A) on a variety of other chinese vessels (I-band Type 347G, believed to be based on the Italian Selenia RTN-20X/SPG 74, part of Dardo twin 40mm), and has nothing to do with Goalkeeper.
For each pair of Type 730 firing units there is a H-band Type 364 target acquisition radar.
http://www.china-defense.com/naval/plan_radar_ew/PLA-N Radar and EW.pdf
Type 730 Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) - SinoDefence.com


IF they are indeed reverse engineered


I don't see how the hull and power generation have anything to do with sensors.


Factoids


They are complex items to produce. So what?


So what? (IIRC, China also still imports a lot of weapons and sensors from Russia and other countries)


Factoids


So what? Incidentally, forgot to mention the gas-turbines on the new destroyers (all imports: from US and Ukraine)


The french don't seem to have complained, which makes you wonder if they didn't strike a deal....


See earlier remark "first PLAN vessel to use an imported sonar set "


So what?


So what?


I don't think I claimed chinese superiority anywhere. I asked you what type of russian ship the 054A was based on, since you claimed it to be a copy of a russian ship. An answer to which you've not provided. Which is hardly surprising as the ship is not based on a russian design.


You really don't have to inform me about Shivalik.


Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Project 17 (Shivalik) Class


The LM2500 would be assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The order for the first three ship sets of two 16 PA6 STC engines was placed by MDL to the Pielstick Indian licensee, Kirloskar Oil Engines Ltd. (KOEL) at the beginning of 2000. The first two engines will be manufactured in France by S.E.M.T. Pielstick, while the subsequent engines will be manufactured in India by KOEL in their Nasik engine plant.
Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Project 17 (Shivalik) Class

IIRC, in March 2009, shortly after Obama became US president, the commissioning of the first frigate was delayed due to the stoppage of fitting the turbines due to GE's failure to secure permission from the US Government for such installation. After two months, permission was granted for the installation.
Shivalik Class Frigates - Naval Technology

MR-760 Fregat M2EM 3-D radar (IMPORT: Russia)
MR-90 Orekh radar (IMPORT:Russia)
BEL APARNA (a local development of the Russian Garpun-Bal FC radar.)
ATAS/Thales Sintra towed array systems (IMPORT)

OTO Melera 76mm SRGM (Italian design, licence produced )
2 x AK-630 30mm guns (import russia)
32 x Barak SAM (import Israel + ELTA radars)
9M317 (SA-N-12) SAM (imports Russia)
8 x Klub/Brahmos missiles (co-development with Russia)
RBU-6000 (RPK-8) + 90R ASW rockets (import Russia)
DTA-53-956 torpedoes (import Russia)



All besides the point.


My response to your post is just that, as a response to your post. So, if my post is off-topic, then that is because your post was off-topic to begin with. It is highly inappropriate therefore for you to then accuse me of not sticking to the topic of this thread. I advise you to be careful who you addres in this manner.

If we take the TYPE 054 frigate following are the very vital components which are either imported by chinese or license produced

Sonar:
------
MGK-335

This is a russian made sonar

Engine:SEMT Pielstick 21,000 hp
------

The above mentioned engine is french engine manufactured by MAN Diesel

Radar: Type 363S
------

The radar is based on Thomson-CSF DRBV-15 Sea Tiger Radar

Thomson-csf(is renamed as Thales Group which is a French company)

Fire control:
-------------
1)Chinese made Type 345 is used

Based on Thomson-CSF Castor II fire control system

2)Type 347g radar

In the 1980s, China imported the OTOBreda (now OTO-Melara) Twin Fast Forty AAA [2] and Selenia (now AMS) SPG-74 (RTN-20X) fire control system from Italy for evaluation.and Type

347 is based on SPG-74 technology.

3)The Type 360 radar
Based on Selenia RAN-10S / SPS – 774 (italy)

Combat Management System:
--------------------------
1)ZKJ-4B/6
The above mentioned part is based on Thomson-CSF TAVITAC

2)SNTI-240 satellite communications (SATCOM), and datalink.is a british made

3)HZ-100

The Elettronica SpA suite was initially based on the Farad (ELT 123) ECM system which was a basic RWR/ESM system. It has since evolved into numerous iterations
The ELT 211 ESM suite is used on the improved version of the Newton system (Beta). It merges the ELT 123, which is basically a RWR system China was able to obtain a license to

manufacturer the Newton Beta suite in 1985 following the purchase of a few units of the original system from Elettronica and this is done by CSIC 723
The system on the Zhuhai has been referred to as the Type 825 ESM system and it is presumed that the complete locally manufactured system is using this domestic designation

instead of the Type 211 associated with the ESM set for the Elettronica Beta equipment. It is possible that the export designation for this system is the HZ-100


Main gun:
---------
1)Type 210 100 mm gun

This gun is based on French Creusot-Loire T100C

2)The AK-630 CIWS Gun

Its a Soviet fully automatic naval six-barreled 30 mm Gatling gun.


Missiles:
--------
1)HQ-7 SAM

HQ-7 SAM is based on Sea Crotale SAM

2)Hongniao_missile-2

Chinese land attack cruise missile, which is based on the variants of the Russian Kh-SD/65.


Torpedos:
-----------

Yu-7 used in this frigate is the Chinese development of the US Mk 46 Mod

Yu-7 torpedo obtained USA technical support in 1985, when China signed a US$ 8 million deal with USA in purchasing Mk 46 Mod. 2 torpedoes with technological support for
licensed assembly.

Even though every one of u know the information which i have posted my question is

1)How should we call this firgate as either a chinese made one or a foreign made

as for shivalik. so u proove by ur post tht it is more indegenious than 054a,
my question were totally relevant to the topic ,

 

[tidu]

.
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It funny how you advise me to follow the topic and you probably did and went off it, for sake off argument. How typical Indian mentality.

It funny how you advise me to follow the topic and you probably did and went off it, for sake off argument. How typical AntiIndian mentality.

 

[Super Falcon]

stilll pakistan has not finalized any submarine so we are keeeping our fingers croosssss for U boat speciallly