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PN U-Boats!

214s are better than 212s.. we discussed this before. Kindly search.

India is not going to get 214s. It is too far behind in the deal, and extremely slow with its tenders.

As I said refer to Naval Technology or HDW official website to understand the differences between 212 and 214.

214 itself is an export version of 212 which is only available to Germany and Italy. How can 214 will be better than 212?

India might be slow on tenders but they are more in numbers which mean HDW can make more profit with India than Pakistan and hence their obvious preference will be India.

Tenders for six more submarines for Navy next year: Antony

New Delhi, Dec 11: India is planning to issue a Request for Proposals for construction of six new diesel-electric submarines in India by the middle of next year.

"The issuance of RFP for the submarines under P-75 (I) is envisaged in mid-2009," Defence Minister A K Antony said while replying to a question in the Rajya Sabha on Thursday.

Antony said the new submarines would be built indigenously on an imported design and the partners would be chosen on a multi-vendor basis.

"The submarines will be built on an imported design with an overseas collaborator to be selected on multi-vendor basis," he said.

Commenting on the measures taken by the government to ensure on-schedule delivery of imported weapon systems, the Minister said: "Necessary provisions are included in contracts to ensure that defence equipments are received as per agreed delivery schedule and negotiated price and other contractual term and conditions."

He said there was a clause in the contract regarding levy of Liquidated Damages (LD) in case of delay in delivery of equipment.

Replying to another question, the minister said Russia, United States, United Kingdom, France, Germany and Israel were the major exporters of military hardware to India.

He said the import option for procuring defence equipment was exercised when it became necessary to procure items with in definite time frame on operational grounds to bridge the capability gap and when the equipment could not be procured indigenously.

Bureau Report

Tenders for six more submarines for Navy next year
 
As I said refer to Naval Technology or HDW official website to understand the differences between 212 and 214.

214 itself is an export version of 212 which is only available to Germany and Italy. How can 214 will be better than 212?

India might be slow on tenders but they are more in numbers which mean HDW can make more profit with India than Pakistan and hence their obvious preference will be India.
so you had trouble on pdf and instead brought you bullsh here? get real, U-214 is no export version, it is a totally different platform with better sensors and combat systems. it's much larger, can carry more, and has more range. the only thing it does not have is the magnetic hull, but it is far more stealthier than anything you have or anything you will have for at least the next decade.

besides this is what naval-technology states,

"HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212." (U212 / U214 Attack Submarines - Naval Technology)

as for india ordering the subs, get real. sheesh, finish your current order first, don't try to block everything Pakistan is going to acquire like you always do. I remember indian trolls saying the same stuff, "oh, india is a bigger market and will make more profit, that's why they won't sale to Pakistan" or "oh, the indian and israeli lobbies are working hard to prevent the sale".
 
Man, i'm excited about this deal!
Here are some pics (if these are the correct ones).
Looks pretty dominant and beautiful. :pakistan:



115f27ce28a654dbe77a906aae079d49.jpg


 

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As I said refer to Naval Technology or HDW official website to understand the differences between 212 and 214.

214 itself is an export version of 212 which is only available to Germany and Italy. How can 214 will be better than 212?

India might be slow on tenders but they are more in numbers which mean HDW can make more profit with India than Pakistan and hence their obvious preference will be India.

Dont tell me what to refer. You clearly have no idea what your talking about. I think it has something to do with your inferiority thinking that comes in to play whenever you see Pakistan getting stuff that is one of the best. Instead of telling me what to look, and what not to look. Why dont you put down some data. U-212 is made for European specification and doesn't fit the whole idea of using them in Indian Ocean for Pakistan Navy. If Pakistan had preferred it would have gone for U-212, but like i said.. it doesn't fit the whole idea or what Pakistan wants.
 
is there any difference in a awater of indian ocean and european seas weebby
 
Dont tell me what to refer. You clearly have no idea what your talking about. I think it has something to do with your inferiority thinking that comes in to play whenever you see Pakistan getting stuff that is one of the best. Instead of telling me what to look, and what not to look. Why dont you put down some data. U-212 is made for European specification and doesn't fit the whole idea of using them in Indian Ocean for Pakistan Navy. If Pakistan had preferred it would have gone for U-212, but like i said.. it doesn't fit the whole idea or what Pakistan wants.

I was talking to you politely but if you have this arrogant attitude just because you owe this domain then there is no point in talking/debating to you.

hy dont you put down some data. U-212 is made for European specification and doesn't fit the whole idea of using them in Indian Ocean for Pakistan Navy. If Pakistan had preferred it would have gone for U-212, but like i said.. it doesn't fit the whole idea or what Pakistan wants.

I am saying this again its not U its Type. U is a designation for subs in German service like India/Pakistan is S.


Type-212 is only meant for Germany and Italy and not for whole Europe so it has nothing to do with European waters or Pakistani waters or Indian waters.

If 214 was better than 214 then Germans themselves would have used it. as of today 214 is ordered/in service of Koreans, Turks and the Greeks. Both Italians and Germans who were the principal players of 212 doesn't use 214.

as for india ordering the subs, get real. sheesh, finish your current order first, don't try to block everything Pakistan is going to acquire like you always do. I remember indian trolls saying the same stuff, "oh, india is a bigger market and will make more profit, that's why they won't sale to Pakistan" or "oh, the indian and israeli lobbies are working hard to prevent the sale".

We r not blocking anything. Its an open market. Whoever bids more gets the stuff.

Last time I heard u were supposed to sink our ships with Merlins. what happened to that?

As far as current project (Scorpene) is concerned all the subs are being built in India where as the next order of 6 subs will be mostly built by the manufacturer since the dock is busy building Scorpenes.

"HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212."

Type 214 lacks the non-magnetic hull (to avoid detection) and other classified technologies of Type 212. Also Type 214 is more similar to the very successful Type 209 submarine, while Type 212 was an independent project of the German Navy with significant changes to Type 209.

I am saying this again if Type 214 was so advanced then the Germans themselves would have used it instead of Type-214.
 
so you had trouble on pdf and instead brought you bullsh here? get real, U-214 is no export version, it is a totally different platform with better sensors and combat systems. it's much larger, can carry more, and has more range. the only thing it does not have is the magnetic hull, but it is far more stealthier than anything you have or anything you will have for at least the next decade.

sorry sir assad-ul-islam, with all respect sir but the claim by garibnawaz is true to come extend.

The Type 214 is a diesel-electric submarine developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW). It features diesel propulsion with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system using Siemens polymer electrolyte module (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells. It is based on features of the Type 212, but as the export version of the more advanced Type 212 submarine it lacks the non-magnetic hull (to avoid detection) and other classified technologies. Also Type 214 is more similar to the very successful Type 209 submarine, while Type 212 was an independent project of the German Navy with significant changes to Type 209.

ut to add to your point it says that Also Type 214 is more similar to the very successful Type 209 submarine, while Type 212 was an independent project of the German Navy with significant changes to Type 209.

but as far as sophistacation is concerned, U212 seems to be better option by its virtuall silent and undetectable nature!
Whats your say??
 
seniors can someone please guide what was the hurdel in procurment of U212 a far better platform compared to the U214 having a nonmagntised hull, virtually silent and undetectable.

aslo please can canyone tell if the U214will also be using the fuel cell same as those of U212 which are said to be really advance technology!

and again what went wrong for U212 as it would have been the best option, being regarded as among the best in conventional subs, was there the money factor only as i have not heared of any other problem!

Guidance from you will be really helpfull
thanx
 
I watched this episode of "Future Weapons" on Military Channel! Didn't know at that time that we're going to procure these so REALLY happy!

:bounce:
 
I was talking to you politely but if you have this arrogant attitude just because you owe this domain then there is no point in talking/debating to you.
stop trolling.

If 214 was better than 214 then Germans themselves would have used it. as of today 214 is ordered/in service of Koreans, Turks and the Greeks. Both Italians and Germans who were the principal players of 212 doesn't use 214.
rhetorical argument? I already proved type 214 is a totally different platform, and is more of an improvement. it came after the type 212. conveniently, you did not read further into the article where it clearly states,
"HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212." (U212 / U214 Attack Submarines - Naval Technology)

the german military has a defensive doctrine, the type 212 fits their requirements. we have a more aggressive policy, since our military is not bound to any rules or agreements from WWII.

We r not blocking anything. Its an open market. Whoever bids more gets the stuff. Last time I heard u were supposed to sink our ships with Merlins. what happened to that?
oh really? is that why you have lobbyists trying to block F-16 sales towards Pakistan? why do you do that? I thought you guys had faith in your sukhois?


Type 214 lacks the non-magnetic hull (to avoid detection) and other classified technologies of Type 212. Also Type 214 is more similar to the very successful Type 209 submarine, while Type 212 was an independent project of the German Navy with significant changes to Type 209.
nope, type 214 still is far more stealthier than any other conventional submarine out there, whether it has a non-magnetic hull or not. it has technologies you don't have or will have for a while. it's nothing like the type 209 or type 212, it's a newer platform.

webby, can you open this picture? here's a picture for those who can't read. see how much of a difference there is?

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/7975/u2122145an.jpg
 
sir assad-ul-islam, sir you didnt commented m post,

what do you suggest about the U212 procurment!

nope, type 214 still is far more stealthier than any other conventional submarine out there, whether it has a non-magnetic hull or not. it has technologies you don't have or will have for a while. it's nothing like the type 209 or type 212, it's a newer platform.
.

i am sorry but cannot agree with the first part,

it may be and is a different platform getting some of the specs from U209 and U212 but cannot be commented as being better.
The Type 214 is a diesel-electric submarine developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW). It features diesel propulsion with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system using Siemens polymer electrolyte module (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells. It is based on features of the Type 212, but as the export version of the more advanced Type 212 submarine it lacks the non-magnetic hull (to avoid detection) and other classified technologies. Also Type 214 is more similar to the very successful Type 209 submarine, while Type 212 was an independent project of the German Navy with significant changes to Type 209.

the german navy and the HDW say it lacks the demagnetized hull!!
although the article you quoted claims it to be stealther but cannot justify it.
the u212 being vibration free and noise free and having a demagnetized hull is virtually un detectable

the germans are using U212 and producing U214 for export market!

thankyou
 
it may be and is a different platform getting some of the specs from U209 and U212 but cannot be commented as being better.

The Type 214 is a diesel-electric submarine developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW). It features diesel propulsion with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system using Siemens polymer electrolyte module (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells. It is based on features of the Type 212, but as the export version of the more advanced Type 212 submarine it lacks the non-magnetic hull (to avoid detection) and other classified technologies. Also Type 214 is more similar to the very successful Type 209 submarine, while Type 212 was an independent project of the German Navy with significant changes to Type 209.

the german navy and the HDW say it lacks the demagnetized hull!!
although the article you quoted claims it to be stealther but cannot justify it.
the u212 being vibration free and noise free and having a demagnetized hull is virtually un detectable

the germans are using U212 and producing U214 for export market!
thankyou
sir, the U-214 is not at all similar to the U-209. it's at least two, if not three generations ahead in terms of sub-design and subsystems. just because the submarine lacks the non-magnetic hull, it does not at all mean that the sub is lacks stealthiness. it may be less stealthy compared to the type 212, but is far more stealthier than any conventional sub out there.

there are other things that make a sub stealthy, design of the hull being just one thing. the U-212 cannot be declared undetectable, I'm sure the US has made a subs more advanced compared to the germans. however, yes, the U-212 wihout a doubt is one hell of a machine.

now as for the type 214, it was developed and produced later. it has better systems and other qualities. the type 214 looks nothing like the type 212, it's a totally different submarine, and cannot be called an "export" version.

also, I made it clear that the german military is defensive in nature, due to laws and conditions imposed upon them because of WWII. they cannot have an offensive-postured military, therefore the type 212 is much more smaller and is more fit for patrolling their own sea territory. the type 214 is not a good choice for them, being much larger and heavily loaded. it's far more suitable for an aggressive sub-hunting navy like the PN.
 
Scorpene In Rough Sea

German class 214 submarine enters the fray with a hard to resist offer
FORCE May-2005
By Prasun K. Sengupta

The ‘almost done deal' for acquiring six Scorpene-class diesel-electric submarines (SSK) worth almost US$2 billion for the Indian Navy now certainly appears to be in jeopardy, as the German Submarine Consortium (GSC) last month made a hard-to-refuse offer for supplying an equal number of Type 214 SSKs along with a related package for upgrading the navy's existing four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that were acquired from the GSC in the 1980s. To make the offer extremely attractive, GSC has proposed the following:

The Type 214 SSKs are being offered at prices 30 per cent cheaper than the Scorpenes.

State-owned, Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks (MDL), which has so far licence-built two Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, will be trained and equipped by the GSC to licence-build the Type 214s within a six-month period following contract signature.

GSC will have an industrial tie-up with MDL to enable the latter to independently undertake the mid-life refits of the navy's existing four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that will include the installation of self-contained ‘hull modules' that will house fuel-cell-based air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems similar to the ones on board the Class 214 SSK.

GSC will give the navy total flexibility to choose, install and integrate the Type 214 SSK's combat management system; guided-weapons; optronic periscopes; tactical data links; SATCOM and VLF communications suites; search radar; electronic warfare (EW) suite; and the sonar suite that will include a cylindrical array sonar for medium-frequency passive detection, flank array sonar for low/medium-frequency detection, thin line active/passive towed-array for low-frequency determination of target range and bearing of hostile submarines, an intercept array sonar for detection of active emissions of surface warships, and an active high-frequency mine detection sonar.

http://www.forceindia.net/images/scropeneinroughsea.jpg


It is believed that India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) is favourably disposed to GSC's offer due to the following reasons:

Unlike the Scorpene, which is equipped and armed with sensors and systems made only by France (by Armaris, THALES, SAGEM and MBDA) and Spain (IZAR), the Type 214 SSK is being offered with a choice of weapons and sensors from different countries. This means the SSK will be able to fire the Russian Novator-built 3M54E Klub-S supersonic anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) and its 3M-14E land-attack variant, which is well-liked by the navy and is currently operational with at least four of the navy's upgraded Type 877EKM Kilo-class SSKs.

The Scorpene SSK, although ordered by Chile (two) and Malaysia (two), does not yet have an operational AIP system. Armaris is still developing the steam turbine-based ‘MESMA' (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP system, which basically burns ethanol and liquid oxygen to make the steam needed to drive a turbo-electric generator. In contrast, the fuel-cell-based AIP system developed by the GSC and Siemens is currently operational with the navies of Germany and Italy.

GSC's offer of ‘helping enable' MDL to upgrade in-country the navy's four 1,850-ton Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, which will approach the end of their operational lives between 2016 and 2024, is something Armaris of France cannot match. The navy too regards the mid-life upgrade of these four SSKs an operational necessity.

The fuel-cell-based AIP system of the Class 214 SSK is similar in design and operating concept to the Kristall-27E AIP of the Russian Amur 1650-class SSK, six of which will be licence-built for the navy by Larsen & Toubro Ltd and be armed with BrahMos vertically-launched, multi-role supersonic cruise missiles (see FORCE November 2004, page 22). This will help greatly reduce the life-cycle costs of both the Type 214 and the Amur 1650 SSK fleets.

The Type 214 SSK is derived from the Type 212 SSK, four of which have begun entering service with the German Navy and were built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden, both members of the GSC. The two Type 212s ordered by the Italian Navy are being licence-built by Fincantieri. The Greek Navy has ordered four Type 214 SSKs, while South Korea has ordered three Type 214 SSKs that are being licence-built by Hyundai Heavy Industries.

The Type 214 has an increased diving depth of more than 400 metres (more than 1,400 feet), compared to the Scorpene's 300 metres. Its hull length is 65 metres and displacement is 1,700 tonnes. Built of austenitic steel (HY-80 and HY-100), the SSK's buoyancy reserve is in excess of 10 per cent. Four of its eight torpedo launch tubes (equipped with a water ram expulsion system) are capable of firing ASCMs. Heavyweight torpedoes used by the Type 214 SSK include the Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei-built Black Shark or STN Atlas' DM2A4 dual purpose, wire-guided heavy torpedo.

Propulsion is provided by two MTU-built 16V396 diesel-electric engines (2,000 kW) serving a 600-900V propulsion battery with a fully integrated auxiliary AIP system based on two PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) 120kW fuel-cell modules. The propulsion motor is a Siemens Permasyn (Type FR6439-3900KW) low-speed permanently excited electric motor driving a low-noise, skewback 7-blade propeller. Using the AIP system on submerged patrol and intercept missions enables the Type 214 SSK to remain submerged for up to 13 days at a speed of 4 Knots. Submerged sprint speeds of between 16 and 20+ Knots are possible for periods of a few hours several times during a 50-day mission. At a speed of 6 Knots the mission range is almost 12,000nm, while the maximum endurance is 84 days.

The navy's Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs were ordered on 11 December 1981. The first two SSKs (S-44 Shishumar and S-45 Shankush) were built by HDW and were inducted into service on 22 September and 20 November 1986, respectively. The remaining two (S-46 Shalki and S-47 Shankul) were licence-built by MDL and entered service on 7 February 1992 and 28 May 1994.
 
As far as AIP goes , The IN has chosen the German Fuel Cells over French MESMA , An internal study of the IN came up with the conclusion that the German Fuel Cells were much superior to the French MESMA.

One never knows how urgent is this AIP requirement wheather they would incorporated with the first sub itself and would be fitted on a later one.

One thing about the French Scorpene is that all the command & control ,sensors sonar and weapons suite ,SUBTICS are made by France so it would be much easier to transfer the tech as part of the deal.

Also one grey area is what specification has the IN asked for , the Scorpene is a very customizable submarine and cost could vary depending on whats fitted and customised in the sub
 

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