Pentagon Seeks Wartime Powers For Dealing With Pak

[Hellfire]

And neither will you be left alone to face the consequences.

meaning send in the indian cavalry to save the day!

fatman

am sure you can appreciate what consequences await us too.

thanks

 

[Hellfire]

By not infusing enough troops, PA has allowed itself to be blamed as now base of operations by Talibs are more and more frequently located inside Pakistani territory which US army does not have the mandate to attack yet.

just so you know - pak talibs operate in pak and afghan talibs operate in afghanistan - and yes afghan talibs do find sanctuary along the border!

remember more than 70% of afghanistan is still not under the control of the puppet-regime in kabul!

am pretty much aware of the facts, however due to commonality in ethinicity and increasing perception of GoP and PA being a "western puppet" that fine distinction which you have just highlighted will get blurred and real soon.

Thanks

 

[Hellfire]

MastanKhan


Since 2005 the u s is walking a different rope---towing a different line. Something has changed---the priorities for the time being are not the same on both sides of the border.

I think that the perception which was created as a result of feedback of US forces operating in the region had some part to play in it. The isolated yet regular incidents wherein the US forces chased groups into Pakistani territory only to be fired upon by Pakistani BGs, led to widespread appreciation of the fact that there was duplicity of acts by Pakistani Security forces who were officially an ally yet at times protected the Talibs this way. I may be wrong and am open to being corrected for this view of mine.


This negative media campaign against the pak army has taken up a new twist. This media campaign is more focused towards the american and general public world wide----it is as if there is a hidden agenda and before the start of the blitzkreig, there has to be a softening of the public opinion towards american interests and hardening of public emotions towards pak army and pakistan. It all seems to be maneuvered in such a systametic manner, all the pieces being put together by a smooth operator in such a calm way, the noose hanging low that when the pak army walks into it---it won't even know when someone pulled the planks from underneath its feet

I hate to agree with your assesment here but you are right. The aim is simple - bring so much preessure on GoP and PA that it acts decisively, something we had seen was lacking in its approach so far even to events within its own territories. The success of this strategy has seen PA now act decisively in FATA and NWFP against those who are challenging the write of GoP there and who, argue as much as you may like, have affinity and support of Afghani Taliban also. It is hoped that the resolve displayed by GoP and PA will continue further to address the borader issue of Afghanistan. Also AQ is today embedded into Talibs so the distinction is but a thin blurred line now.

I think that pak army still has a lots of time to turn the tables around. It only needs the courage, guts, ballz, whatsoever you call them to face the demon---taliban---pak army needs to strike hard---strike deep---and kill them in thousands---and kill their leadership as if there was no tomorrow. For one time---the world opinion is in favour of pak army attacking the taliban and acting ruthlessly against them.

No you dont have time. The fight is going to spread very quickly to your towns and cities and they shall hit your heartland if you take time to move against them. The Talibs understand that they have a lot to loose now. PA is a great fighting force IF it decided to fight.

Actually and truly---the world truly wants to see pak army in action---they had heard a lot of bragging by this army about what they can do---but till now---it is all fluff. The world stage is set for the viewing---the cast---pak army on one side---the taliban on the other side---and the viewers are rooting for the home team---the pak army---they want blood and guts---they want the heads rolled---they want to see some dead bodies---they want to see the talibans rooted from their perches and slaughtered as if there is no tomorrow. They want to see the pak army as the wrath of Allah falling upon the taliban and totally annihilating them.

I agree. PA has the support of the world today, something which will never ever happen again when it engages a new enemy. It has this time in history in front of itself, where it has to fight for its country and people, both of whom repose such a great faith in it.

 

[S-2]

Conway's comments mention some obvious differences to the terrain along the southern borders when discussing Kiyani. It's far more flat. Crossing points aren't channelized by terrain to the same extent. He alludes to the Iraqi-Syrian desert borders.

Plus side might be less foliage as cover.

Hellfire is correct that fencing and mining is a sovereign decision. Within your lands you may do so. As a practical matter, minefields in particular but ALL obstacles should be covered by direct fire and observation at all times under all conditions.

Minefields have a habit of otherwise disappearing and reappearing on your roads.

The eastern border trails are centuries old and mimic or are actual smuggling routes long used. Any view of the Korengal shows the reinforced nature of these pathways wherever possible. Lumber, guns, drugs, gems, appliances-everything evidently moves through these trails and they MUST be known by now to a great extent on both sides.

Troops-

"I dont know why US is hesitating in deploying in the South."

Iraq for one. Not our region (RC-South) for two. Those things have changed. Finally, any numbers in Afghanistan is predicated by supply. ANY unless it's made there. If not it crosses somebody's border somewhere. That means ISAF, NGOs, America, and every single afghan civilian or soldier. As their army and police grow, so do their supply needs. As they rip us off more, so increase the needs.

Here's the latest ISAF Order of Battle-

ISAF Order of Battle by Nation and Area-April 2009

 

[fatman17]

am pretty much aware of the facts, however due to commonality in ethinicity and increasing perception of GoP and PA being a "western puppet" that fine distinction which you have just highlighted will get blurred and real soon.

Thanks

well, lets just wait and see and thanks for confirming the reluctance of the PA for not toeing the western line!

 

[fatman17]

fatman

am sure you can appreciate what consequences await us too.

thanks

yes indeed!

 

[Hellfire]

well, lets just wait and see and thanks for confirming the reluctance of the PA for not toeing the western line!

The reluctance on behalf of the PA is understood clearly ..... but what are the fundamental factors behind it? What consequences are for PA in light of such a perception? If one was to dwelve into them, then again majority of members here will say nothing like that.

Is the reason a fear of dissent within the ranks and files over prolonged operations against their 'bretheren'?

 

[fatman17]

The reluctance on behalf of the PA is understood clearly ..... but what are the fundamental factors behind it? What consequences are for PA in light of such a perception? If one was to dwelve into them, then again majority of members here will say nothing like that.

Is the reason a fear of dissent within the ranks and files over prolonged operations against their 'bretheren'?[/QUOTE]

No! the PA is not a bananna republic army! infact your comment really dosnt deserve a comment back! you should know better!

the fundamental factor is a "deep mistrust of the americans"!

 

[Hellfire]

No! the PA is not a bananna republic army! infact your comment really dosnt deserve a comment back! you should know better!

the fundamental factor is a "deep mistrust of the americans"!

Precisely my point fatman. Purely meant to bait you.

Sorry but the justification for PA's hesitancy is totally baseless. Even if you are seen as "western lackey" how does it effect your combat preparedness/ability to undertake CI grid operations? How does it weaken your case to wage war against those who have taken it upon themselves to challenge the very authority of GoP which is the rightful administrator of the region and has the right to govern the territories it has as per its own rules and laws?

Can you justify the apprehensions of PA, please?

Deep mistrust of US has no relevance and basis for formulation of GoP policies to ensure its writ within its own territories. Neither does this mistrust justify you surrendering in face of people out to break your very way of life. I await your answer eagerly.

Thanks

 

[Hellfire]

But in any event, we've got to do what we've got to do in the south. And there will be pond rings coming off of that that I think we're going to have to adjust to. But again not everybody is of the same mind as General Kayani, who might be citing a worst-case scenario to us."
-
Indeed the good General should order body bags in advance for dead US Nazi Soldiers.I just think PA should seal the border and patrol it actively and if Afghanis refuse to let us mine it still mine it and if Amercans attack Pakistan for mining border nuke the bastards along with Afghanis.Deploy shitlaod of forces and not let American drone come over Pakistan.

Saad

You have given a very workable solution only obscured in vehement anti-americanism.

Mining the areas will not be very effective due to shifting nature of terrain. We have seen it so in LoC.

Solution is fencing and active patrolling with influx of adequate troops. Do that, and you can deal with your own talibs in pakistan and US with theirs in afghanistan. it shall negate any finger pointing at PA.

Let us agree on one thing - today or tomorrow you had to fight them (talibs). Many have blamed Musharraf for leading Pakistan to this stage, but I have admiration for the man for recognising what the threat meant. He also gave you an able successor in form of Gen Kiyani, who could easily usurp the power yet chose not to. Give Musharraf his credit.

Talibs in their basic essence are anti whatever Pakistan has stood for till date. Being an Islamic nation, there are minorities living there for decades and in harmony, that is an achievement, being Islamic nation, you have maintained liberal views and been denounced for them at times, yet have carved your own identity ( i remember Pakistani society being very liberal and forward some years back and still is), these are your own way of life which stands threatened.

You have to take your own decisions, and you have to defend what you believe in and what is your way of life.

Forget US, forget India or anyone who may even remotely have ill wills towards you. What you decide to do and have the resolve to implement, will shape your destiny, not what we or US do.

Thanks

 

[Mirage2000]

I just think PA should seal the border and patrol it actively and if Afghanis refuse to let us mine it still mine it and if Amercans attack Pakistan for mining border nuke the bastards along with Afghanis.Deploy shitlaod of forces and not let American drone come over Pakistan.

The sealing of border and mining it was proposed in Musharaf era but it was opposed by americans and nato and also in those days the canadian PM on his visit proposed some kind of surveillance equipment to be provided to Pakistan so that we dont lay mines on border, I never heared anything of that equipment or something afterwards and dont know that it was given to Pakistan or not.The idea of mining was left aside.The mining is still a good idea to stop illegal border crossings by foreigners which are causing us trouble in FATA and Balochistan and if US opposes it we still have the option of stopping their supplies to Afghanistan as we did it in past.
And nuking them is not a good idea at all when we still have other options.

 

[Zob]

for its part the US doesn't let us fence the border with afghnaistan...and like i said US army should be held responsible for not delievering in IRAQ,AFGHANISTAN,VIETNAM....there is not single direct victory for the US since the KOREAN WAR......so i think if we are discussing "PAKISTAN ARMY FAILURES" then it is of the utmost important to tell the world that why the mighty US army has been unable to deliever...given its level of sophistication....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

S-2:

I'll retract my 'lying' comment since you offered a clarification.

This most recent occasion, he expressed concern that our forces going into the south could cause a refugee problem that Pakistan is ill-equipped to handle right now, based on their fiscal scenario, and the possibility that we could be forcing Taliban out of the south and onto supply lines that the Pakistani forces are currently trying to protect for us. So, once again, good thought. And we talked then about how they would further go about protection of those -- of those supply lines.

Gen. Kiyani's intentions are as they seem - he exchanged ideas on what he thought the impact of the US operations would be on Pakistan in terms of refugees an the supply lines. The refugee concern was bound to come up given that aid for refugees is also going to be a major issue in the coming negotiations in the US.

It seems on the issue of protecting supply lines at least the two did talk over some possible ways of addressing a potential problem.

It would in fact be far more of a concern if Gen. Kiyani had not pointed out these issues, and it seems that Gen. Conway appreciated the fact that Pakistan had thought through the potential impact of US operations in Southern Afghanistan on Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The isolated yet regular incidents wherein the US forces chased groups into Pakistani territory only to be fired upon by Pakistani BGs, led to widespread appreciation of the fact that there was duplicity of acts by Pakistani Security forces who were officially an ally yet at times protected the Talibs this way. I may be wrong and am open to being corrected for this view of mine.

They were isolated and a handful of incidents, not 'regular', primarily involving the FC, and if you have followed All Green's posts, he has offered some valuable insight into the problems faced by PA officers deputed to the FC, and the effort involved in changing attitudes towards the militants.

 

[Hellfire]

for its part the US doesn't let us fence the border with afghnaistan...and like i said US army should be held responsible for not delievering in IRAQ,AFGHANISTAN,VIETNAM....there is not single direct victory for the US since the KOREAN WAR......so i think if we are discussing "PAKISTAN ARMY FAILURES" then it is of the utmost important to tell the world that why the mighty US army has been unable to deliever...given its level of sophistication....

Zob

The question here is not what US is/can do on ground, but what PA has to. US wants to further facilitate measures that ensure understanding genuine PA requirements in real time for equipment/resources to be used in real time in its fight against the Talibs.

Role of US in the present situation is limited to area denial (in afghanistan) to Talibs who escape into Pakistan or from Pakistan (in face of mounting PA pressure). The main role today is of PA who has to be in similar mode, to deny staging areas for the Talibs in Afghanistan and to maintain a high tempo of operations aimed at degrading and subsequently eliminating the capability of TTP and like groups to threaten/destabilise Pakistan and wage war on the legal government.

Blaming US and questioning their achievements will not help in facilitating better security for the State of Pakistan.

Thanks