Palestine and Kashmir – One Fire

[Chinese-Dragon]

Now I get it, you are incensed why an insignificant Bangladeshi is talking like this to a member of the mighty Chinese nation. So you bring in the Saudi's as leader of Muslims? Good going. When you are in a debate, attack the message, not the messenger, doing that is a sign of weakness.

Muslim world should keep their options open, there are no permanent friends in international relations, only permanent interest. Just like Chinese pursue their own collective interest, we will pursue our own, it is foolish to think that people will remain stupid forever. Muslim world is growing from 24% to 33% or even 40% of global population. With or without outside help, with time we will figure out that unity is in our collective self interest. We will just see who come forward to help us unite and who shakes hand with our enemies and who stays neutral, and we will calibrate our actions and stands accordingly.

Because I live in the US, I have the opportunity to see the people up close, so I know what they are about. They are not full of hatred like people in India and to some extent China, I should say. Developed nations like the West are in a different league, which it will take many decades for you to reach. What has happened here in the US is willful manipulation of data and misinformation campaign to poison their mind, this will correct itself with time, when media and political elite reorient themselves.

Israel does not have enough nukes to wipe all Muslims from earth, and I do not think they are that stupid to try.

Israel has one of the largest nuclear arsenals on Earth, given to them by the America you love so much. And their "Samson option" is very much alive, to be used if the tide turns against them in the region.

And good luck with America and India, you guys certainly deserve each other. I'd prefer that we don't get involved at all, we don't need to be involved in that kind of bloodbath.

 

[INDIC]

well azad kashmir people love us and one the other hand indian occpied people throw stones at indian army .. everyone knows who the invaders are ...

Pakistan was the invader. On 22 October 1947, Pakistan in clear violation of the Standstill Agreement launched invasion of Kashmir.

 

[Armstrong]

So @Chinese-Dragon where do we figure into this entire BRICS vs the Muslim World vs America ?

 

[Contrarian]

Who is teaming up with Zionists and Hindus? One of your flags is Bangladesh (the most pro-India country in the world according to polls), and the other is America, who is the preeminent force behind Zionism, with their majority Christian population backing Israel 100%.

China on the other hand has no Zionists at the top levels of our companies or our government (the most powerful people in China are all Chinese), and in the UN we vote in support of Palestine. We are also the ones who defeated India in 1962, and the ones who still haunt their nightmares.

So who is teaming up with Zionists and Hindus? Not us, but the two flags you are wearing.



Yes, there is no point in us fighting openly against them, when we can simply sit back and build up our power. That is more than enough to take care of our own borders, we don't seek any kind of global showdown, we'll leave that to others. As we are already doing right now.

You are really wasting your time talking with these two.
They are remnants of a persecuted group of people in Bangladesh. The jamaatis who sided with Pakistan and aided the genocide against their own citizens. The majority of the people of Bangladesh hate them, and these people have some grand dreams of Bangladesh joining some global Muslim alliance against India(which whopped their a$$ in 1971

All the while their people are hounded away from Bangladesh. Failure of their aspirations has led them to constantly make imaginary tales and talks.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

So @Chinese-Dragon where do we figure into this entire BRICS vs the Muslim World vs America ?

Ask @kalu_miah, it is his theory.

I don't believe in an "us versus them" idea of foreign relations. China does business with everyone, and we keep our nose out of other people's wars and other people's internal affairs. There are plenty of major conflicts going on right now, we are staying out of it, and will continue to stay out of it.

So kalu_miah's idea of the Muslim world joining America to defeat China/Russia/BRICS is hilarious, since we will not be fighting any global wars, we are busy trying to develop our economy. Let the rest kill each other if they want, that's their business, not ours.

 

[kalu_miah]

Israel has one of the largest nuclear arsenals on Earth, given to them by the America you love so much. And their "Samson option" is very much alive, to be used if the tide turns against them in the region.

And good luck with America and India, you guys certainly deserve each other. I'd prefer that we don't get involved at all, we don't need to be involved in that kind of bloodbath.

Israel has no chance or hope to remain hostile against an ever growing Muslim world of 3.3 - 4 billion people, which will become increasingly more developed and integrated. Their only chance of survival is to make peace and sooner or later they will come to their senses, perhaps with persuasion from their friends in the West.

As for India, they lived in fear of Muslims for a 1000 years and they will do so again in another few decades. I think it will not be difficult to get Kashmir back at that future time.

And like you said, China should avoid making alliances with any of the enemies of the Muslim world, then it will not be difficult to maintain good relations between China and Muslim world.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I think it will not be difficult to get Kashmir back at that future time.

In our 1962 War with India, we asked Pakistan to join our war effort, which meant Pakistan could have taken Kashmir from an already defeated India.

But guess what Ayub Khan did? He sided with India, AGAINST China! He even offered a mutual defence pact to India!

Bhutto's foreign policy legacy - DAWN.COM

Bhutto was then leading Pakistan's delegation at the UN General Assembly. He was alarmed at President Ayub Khan's offer of joint defence to India.

Bhutto felt that only those unlettered in international affairs could believe that such an offer would be accepted. In fact, it was more likely to incur the hostility of China which had so far, despite our membership of anti-communist western alliances, refrained from criticising Pakistan.

That was the best opportunity to get back Kashmir, but Ayub Khan decided to side with INDIA, against China.

And what did India give as a reward? 1971.

Maybe he should have sided with China instead? Instead of choosing America and then India?

 

[UKBengali]

@Chinese-Dragon :

You are correct, Muslims are too messed up right now for China to even think about getting into an alliance with us.

Not only are we killing each other but we are also allying with our enemies like India and the US. I believe this is temporary and the majority of Muslims do not like India or the US. Sooner or later, these puppet governments will fall and be replaced by more representative governments.

I for one can see a great Chinese-Muslim alliance that will mutually be beneficial, but for that the Muslims need to first sort themselves out and realise who our enemies and friends are as well.

 

[illusion8]

As for India, they lived in fear of Muslims for a 1000 years and they will do so again in another few decades.

You mean the Turks, Arabs, Persians (Iran) and Mughals( dead and buried) - They don't have a beef with India and neither we with them, besides they are settled civilizations and countries now and have given up their conquering ways. They don't want any part of your suicidal fantasies anyways.

I think it will not be difficult to get Kashmir back at that future time.

You mean the converts - Pakistani's and the Bangladeshi's - nah!!!! we have them covered - we out gun them both, we out produce them, we virtually control their governments - Modi's swearing in was a good example, we control their waters, we out economize them - so yeah, cut the bull shit.

 

[RealityRa]

Israel has no chance or hope to remain hostile against an ever growing Muslim world of 3.3 - 4 billion people, which will become increasingly more developed and integrated. Their only chance of survival is to make peace and sooner or later they will come to their senses, perhaps with persuasion from their friends in the West.

As for India, they lived in fear of Muslims for a 1000 years and they will do so again in another few decades. I think it will not be difficult to get Kashmir back at that future time.

And like you said, China should avoid making alliances with any of the enemies of the Muslim world, then it will not be difficult to maintain good relations between China and Muslim world.

I'm from NE India and no Muslim ever ruled us, what are you talking about?

You mean the Turks, Arabs, Persians (Iran) and Mughals( dead and buried) - They don't have a beef with India and neither we with them, besides they are settled civilizations and countries now and have given up their conquering ways. They don't want any part of your suicidal fantasies anyways.



You mean the converts - Pakistani's and the Bangladeshi's - nah!!!! we have them covered - we out gun them both, we out produce them, we virtually control their governments - Modi's swearing in was a good example, we control their waters, we out economize them - so yeah, cut the bull shit.

Persians and Arabs never conquered India either, another lie spread by the stupid Bangladeshis like @kalu_miah

 

[wolfschanzze]

@Chinese-Dragon :

You are correct, Muslims are too messed up right now for China to even think about getting into an alliance with us.

Not only are we killing each other but we are also allying with our enemies like India and the US. I believe this is temporary and the majority of Muslims do not like India or the US. Sooner or later, these puppet governments will fall and be replaced by more representative governments.

I for one can see a great Chinese-Muslim alliance that will mutually be beneficial, but for that the Muslims need to first sort themselves out and realise who our enemies and friends are as well.

What do you mean puppet governments will fall?
India has the most pro-India party in power and it will only grow in strength in future not fall down according to your dreams.
Who according to you is a more Representative party in India and USA?

 

[kalu_miah]

In our 1962 War with India, we asked Pakistan to join our war effort, which meant Pakistan could have taken Kashmir from an already defeated India.

But guess what Ayub Khan did? He sided with India, AGAINST China! He even offered a mutual defence pact to India!

Bhutto's foreign policy legacy - DAWN.COM

That was the best opportunity to get back Kashmir, but Ayub Khan decided to side with INDIA, against China.

And what did India give as a reward? 1971.

Maybe he should have sided with China instead? Instead of choosing America and then India?

If Ayub Khan offered a mutual defense pact to India, then there was no bigger idiot than him, I am sorry to say. It is for idiots like him and our home grown traitors like Miujib (his daughter Hasina is following the tradition now) that Pakistan was broken, India was there to take advantage of them and I don't blame them for it. It is in their interest and duty to cut down the enemy in half. That is what enemies do.

Getting Kashmir back in 1962 was indeed a lost opportunity. Can't blame anybody other the Ayub Khan and people who advised him for that. Thanks for pointing out this little known fact. Here is what I found on the web:

Why didn't Ayub invade Kashmir in 1962 during Sino-India war to capture that to solve the dispute permanently?

"Why didn't Ayub invade Kashmir in 1962 during Sino-India war to capture that to solve the dispute permanently?

When China invaded India on 20 th October, 1962, five hours before announcing , she sent a secret message of the same to Pakistan's president Ayub Khan for utilising the golden opportunity by invading Kashmir & capturing that within two days as entire Indian army was being swept away like a storm on China's border. Ayub's secretary, Qudratullah Shahab wrote in his big book 'Shahab Nama' about that. The book, written in 1984, has now reached Kashmir Valley too & is being sold like a hot cake. It reveals that before Ayub thought anything, within few days USA & British govts pressurised Pakistan diplomatically for not taking any advantage of that golden opportunity on Kashmir & promised solidly that they would force India to solve Kashmir dispute speedily, Shahab never relied both nations & that was a lost opportunity. Indian army strength in 1962 was very small & that was very substandard too. India increased that greatly after the war & USSR & USA donated massive weapons to India making mountains of them, used in 1965 & 1971 wars too. Shahab writes that he repeatedly explained Ayub that India never understands the language of honesty & principles & understands only language of weapons(might is right), she must be invaded but Ayub too much relied on his unreliable masters of the west who betrayed him. There was a publication in a weekly journal 'Family' in mid August, 1993 issue about the same story of a conference of retired Pakistan's army generals, about 30 of them said that they heavily pressurised Ayub to invade India who never wanted PLEBISCITE in Kashmir, as per UNSC Resolutions as the ONLY solution of DISPUTE but Ayub wanted to befriend Nehru only, otherwise, not only Kashmir would have been secured, rather, strategically, India would have become very weak & balkanised automatically permanently & her neighbours would have been freed from her hegemony & tensions created too afterwards. They further said that Ayub lost the opportunity but India smartly utilised the opportunity well against Pakistan in 1971. How far is the assessment correct as it was supported by Mushahid Husain Syed too in his esteemed daily, just before Agra Summit in July 2001.
Update : No dirty language please, I too don't use! Views of all may not match & on disagreement too, things can be talked NICELY, undoubtedly. Please understand that Pakistan, which, if so strongly claims Kashmir, why she didn't do something solid & decisive at the RIGHT MOMENT, instead of ONLY lecturing at wrong moments.

Update 2: These are questions Kashmiris are asking amongst themselves NOW after knowing these secret things so late. The Gao Kadal book shop is out of stock of the above mentioned book in Srinagar, Kashmir."

@UKBengali I used to believe in Sino-Muslim alliance too, but lately looking at Chinese govt. behavior and direction, I kind of lost confidence in that idea. Now increasingly I think the best option for Muslims is a permanent alliance of Muslim majority countries, Shia and Sunni, perhaps led by Turkey, if Turkey is interested to lead. If China is willing to help us Muslim countries unite and develop then they will prove their friendship to us. But the same opportunity should be open to the West and Western allies in Asia like Japan and South Korea.

And we have to see which of these world powers empower Hindu's and Zionists and increase their power to do us harm. Who ever takes the side of Hindu or the Zionist in the long term, Muslims should put that country in last priority for friendship.

The way I see it, China had a golden opportunity to side with Muslim world, but instead they are going for nonsense idea's like BRICS:

All of these countries put together minus China, will never amount to the combined weight of the Muslim world, yet this is what China wishes to promote.

 

[utraash]

There will be around 2.6 billion Muslims by the year 2050 and 3.3 - 4 billion Muslims in the world by the year 2100 out of a global population of 10 billion and there will be only about 1.1 - 1.2 billion Hindus.
Global Muslim population will exceed 3 billion out of 10 billion by 2100 AD

White nationalists consider Zionist Jews to be their greatest threat and enemy and want to ally with Muslims to defeat Zionist control of USA. Many people in the West who are not affected by Zionist media brainwashing feels the same, but will not say it out loud due to the threats they face. Chinese are now taking sides with India and Russia in BRICS to bring down USA as number one superpower, but this is a temporary arrangement. Russia has a declining population and will have around 110 million by 2050, so they will become either a vassal of China or West. China will remain the same at 1.3 billion. The only true friend of Hindu's are the Zionist Jews both of whom have Muslims as the common enemy.

So who are the people that consider Muslims their greatest threat and enemy and in what order:

1. India and Zionist Jews
2. Russia
3. China
4. West

So what should we Muslims need to do:

- continue making babies and have large families
- unite as much as possible, the first core should start with building economic and people to people relations between Turkey, Pakistan and Bangladesh and then include Indonesia and Malaysia
- note that the West have no reason to be enemy with poor underdeveloped and fragmented Muslim world after fall of Ottoman empire, but this enmity was manufactured by Zionist Jews installing Israel in Muslim land with Western help and support:

- when this core becomes solidified, then we should invite GCC, Arab countries, Central Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa
- this unity effort with enhanced economic and military relationship must happen within Western NATO umbrella with close technological relationship with Japan and South Korea
- that means we have to see through the crap propaganda that Zionist media has been dishing out to the world - we must come to the realization that the "real" West and Muslims are not enemies, rather we have a common Zionist enemy
- when China, India (and their friend Zionist Jews) and Russia unite in BRICS to bring down USA and the West, we the Muslims should give support to the West because, for us to unite, we will need help from them and their allies like Japan and South Korea
- so if the West is with us Muslims, we will be able to defeat the combined forces of 1, 2 and 3
- when China fails to dislodge West from number 1 position, they will become neutral and so will Russia, who most likely will join the West
- that is the point when we will have the final showdown with Hindus and Zionist Jews

So folks lets follow the above plan and get ready, we the Muslims will become the greatest population group on earth in decades and I am sure that our people will wake up more and see the light and unite much more than we are today. The future for Muslims is great, we will once again shine as the beacon of human progress and civilization. Kashmir and Palestine and other such issues will be easy to solve at that time. All we have to do is be patient and follow the plan.

Decimation would start from within Muslims ummah not from outside atleast after seeing the trends of history before you reach upto those numbers.... Sanity prevails.....

 

[UKBengali]

@kalu_miah ; @Chinese-Dragon :

I think you are looking too much into this "brics" grouping.

It is not really at all the makings of an alliance. The only two countries that may have a semi-official alliance now is Russia and China and that is mainly because the two countries need each other in order not be be isolated and weakened by the West.

In 10-15 years time, China will have absolute military dominance over Russia conventionally and will become a match for the US by then. Russia may feel so threatened by China that it may even join the West.

India will still stay a relatively weak state in our lifetimes but its pride will prevent it from becoming a junior partner to China in Asia.

No matter how much the Chinese may think that they can become rich without getting involved in world affairs, they simply must have the freedom to trade with the rest of the world without hindrance. There is no way that China will be able to get away without building a Navy not as powerful as the US since it must make sure that no country, or group of countries, will ever dare try to blockade it's sea trades. Land-based routes are all very well but sea routes will also be required for trade with countries in Africa and the Americas.

Since China will need allies to secure its position in Asia and the world, this is where I believe that the Muslim world comes in.

Hindus and Jews will remain the everlasting enemies of Muslims. White Christians may be less so but look at their bloody history in the Muslim world over the last millennium. We cannot blame all this on Jewish propaganda. There is an underlying conflict between the White Christians and the Muslims.

One of the main reasons for Muslim disunity is that this is being fuelled by the Christian Whites with active encouragement by the Jews. Westerners can do this now as they have no peer to challenge them. Just the fact that China will become a peer to them over the next 1-2 decades will mean that they then will not be able to play the dirty games that they are currently playing in the Muslim world.

With the decline of the Western world, I believe the conflicts in the Muslim world should die down and the Chinese would then be interested in allying with Muslims. I am not saying that Muslims do not share any blame but it will be much easier to resolve conflicts in/in-between Muslim countries without outside interference.

China will solidify it's position as one of the two great powers,along with the US, as the Muslims will help China counterbalance the whole of the Western world and the Chinese can help the Muslims both economically and militarily.

 

[livingdead]

does anybody see the possibility of hindus and muslims being more like western christian .. i.e. more laid back about religious beliefs?
I see that as distinct possibility. Iranians might have enemity with israel but thats political. Similarly as more and more saudis become western educated, they get enlightened and more moderated.
Eastern asian muslims are already at peace with themselves. Rest remain subcontinent (hindus and muslims).
It will take longer for us, but its inevitable.

Jews and christians (and catholics vs protestants) used to be enemies. Not anymore. Same will happen to other religions.