Pakistan's use of anti-tank missile battalions to counter larger Indian mechanized forces. Doctrine

[cabatli_53]

Than is Turkey working one something similar to Javelin or not

Mizrak-O/OMTAS is similar to Javelin on attack modes/guidance but similar class with TOW/Kornet like tri-pod missiles in usage. OMTAS has all new generation attacking options to be used against different variants of enemy targets but She is a heavier missile (35kg inc tubes), Tripod Launcher/optic weight (36kg) than Javelin with way more effective tandem warhead (10kg)with uncooled IIRdetector technology on head. Turkish Land Forces requested both wheeled/tracked ATGM vehicles (Pars 4x4 and Kaplan-10) developed to be used for Mizrak-O/OMTAS missile vehicles along with infantry team usage on field.

• Direct and Top Attacks
• Fire and Forget
• Fire and Update
• Lock on Before Launch
• Lock on After Launch

 

[rvats]

We got rid of foot carrying teams 15 years ago. They were too vulnerable to enemy arty and mortar fire.

I assume regular infantry units, like in Indian Army, are also equipped with anti-tank missiles. Which I think will be Baktar-Shikan. Considering the weight of the whole complex, do they also use 4x4 vehicles? And how many launchers per battalion? Thanks.

 

[Gryphon]

intentional or unintentional ?

I have learnt that both Corps don't have any Ind. Arm. brigade. You are welcome to make corrections.

Out of 49 arm. regiments in PA,
It is understood that 2 Armoured div's have 12 arm. regiments but no MIB's (mechanized infantry is provided by 2x partly mechanized divisions in each Corps), 2 Mech. div's have 10 regiments with own MIB's, there are 8 ind. arm. brigades (with 16 regiments). Plus 2 Ind. Mech. brigades with 2 arm. regt, How are the remaining arm. regiments distributed among Inf. div's? And, which inf. div's don't have them (besides FCNA, 12 ID, 19 ID, 34 Light ID, etc).

its heavy and bulky which makes it difficult for infantry to carry. There are lighter systems available now, its better to move towards inducting them.

Spike series has become quite popular. Pakistan should buy the HJ-12 and produce it under license.

 

[Path-Finder]

We got rid of foot carrying teams 15 years ago. They were too vulnerable to enemy arty and mortar fire.

Systems like HJ8 and TOW are good in low intensity conflict like Syria but high intensity conflict will require portable systems that are infantry friendly.

I think it's logical to adopt APS systems for armor as mere anti tank weapons wont cut it.

I have learnt that both Corps don't have any Ind. Arm. brigade. You are welcome to make corrections.

Out of 49 arm. regiments in PA,
It is understood that 2 Armoured div's have 12 arm. regiments but no MIB's (mechanized infantry is provided by 2x partly mechanized divisions in each Corps), 2 Mech. div's have 10 regiments with own MIB's, there are 8 ind. arm. brigades (with 16 regiments). How are the 11 remaining arm. regiments distributed among Inf. div's? And, which inf. div's don't have them (besides FCNA, 12 ID, 19 ID, 34 Light ID, etc).



Spike series has become quite popular. Pakistan should buy the HJ-12 and produce it under license.

Replace both HJ8 and TOW with HJ12 and OMTAS.

 

[Signalian]

I have learnt that both Corps don't have any Ind. Arm. brigade. You are welcome to make corrections.

Nowshera and Khuzdar.

 

[volatile]

If its not sensitive information please do elaborate more why SSG need such weapon

I assure you my brother ... Alcotán AT rocket systems are not meant for PA Infantry ... its sole purpose lies with SSG ...

 

[Zulfiqar]

ATGM units and armour will also be backed up by SP and field artillary along with MLRS. PA have whole divisions of it. PA can use the regular munitions although guided munitions like SADARM are preferable (if sourced from china e.t.c).

Direct hits on tanks is not needed as indirect hit can also damage tanks which may result in at least mobility kill or damage to critical parts (which may not be repaired in field timely in heat of battle).

Further PA don't need to completly damage the capability of a unit. If an enemy formation is only at 50% strength due to combination of ATGMs, mines, artillery, armour e.t.c then it may not be able to achieve its given objective.

Some useful info below:

https://imgur.com/id%3DgIjCo%3Btype%3Dalbum

 

[Glockaholic]

Do we have kornet-e ?

 

[Gryphon]

Nowshera and Khuzdar.

Dear sir,
I am aware that it has been on Wikipedia and some websites/blogs for sometime but is there any source confirming they actually exist?

This is the old Pakistan Army orbat from a book (before the 25th and 26th Mech. Div's were formed)

And, then there is a newer orbat ( https://web.archive.org/web/20170812165527/http://pakdef.org/commandstructure/ ).

Now, the question arises: how can these supposed ind. arm. brigades be identified (without a number)?

 

[Signalian]

Dear sir,
I am aware that it has been on Wikipedia and some websites/blogs for sometime but is there any source confirming they actually exist?

wiki and internet, my number one source of information

Nai, there is no source that i can give.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

i think given proliferation of guided, Precision ammunition and cluster weapons the key against a large invading force will be strong air force that can handle attrition(good numbers)
the job will be to deny invading force air support/air superiority and create havoc with cluster and Precision ammuntion

If an adversary kind of enjoy air superiority like that of USAF, then its something else. In recent history, US used air force first to soften up and destroy any threat posed by adversary before its ground forces go in. This initials campaigns took weeks and months.
Now, here is USA, with backing of dozens of nations, no threat of embargoes from United Nation. Huge amount of money, resources for a sustained campaign.

Such luxuries of time, space and resources are not enjoyed by any other country at this time of history. Specially not India.

What they are planning is for
>quick short war to
>>achieve a given objective under threshold of nuclear line
>>>before international pressure for a ceasefire.

Now I would like to stress, that India has intentions but lack matching capabilities at the moment. They are trying hard to achieve those capabilities.
2018 and 2019 are crucial. In the run up of Indian general elections, everything is possible. LoC, WB. Keep an eye

 

[Zhukov]

What LARGE MECHANIZED FORCE?
Indian Armour Assets (Tanks and APCs) are not even twice as Pakistan in numerical Superiority. Its hardly 1.5 Times that of Pakistan Inventory as of Current date. Pakistan might not be strong enough to invade India but you cant invade Pakistan with this Puny Army (Compared to Sized of your country) on our own homeland where no sentiments are in favour of India infact 100% negative means no local support for invaders.
Anyone have a doubt please go check for yourself the inventories of Indian and Pakistan Army. How can India even possibly think of Invading A Country with 7 times lesser land area to defend with 100% negetive sentiments for India and only roughly 1.5 times smaller Force?

Subcontinental folks are delusional as hell. India Thinks it is a Super Power in fact it have barely enough power to protect its huge country from the mighty dragon in the north and Pakistanis think they are the next superpower although our economy is in shambles and we barely keep up our defenses alive with financing and aids

I can just imagine what Subcontinent would have been if it was not a poverty struck bipolar shit hole like today and instead a collaborative union of independent states without these sensless rivalries

 

[ziaulislam]

What LARGE MECHANIZED FORCE?
Indian Armour Assets (Tanks and APCs) are not even twice as Pakistan in numerical Superiority. Its hardly 1.5 Times that of Pakistan Inventory as of Current date. Pakistan might not be strong enough to invade India but you cant invade Pakistan with this Puny Army (Compared to Sized of your country) on our own homeland where no sentiments are in favour of India infact 100% negative means no local support for invaders.
Anyone have a doubt please go check for yourself the inventories of Indian and Pakistan Army. How can India even possibly think of Invading A Country with 7 times lesser land area to defend with 100% negetive sentiments for India and only roughly 1.5 times smaller Force?

Subcontinental folks are delusional as hell. India Thinks it is a Super Power in fact it have barely enough power to protect its huge country from the mighty dragon in the north and Pakistanis think they are the next superpower although our economy is in shambles and we barely keep up our defenses alive with financing and aids

I can just imagine what Subcontinent would have been if it was not a poverty struck bipolar shit hole like today and instead a collaborative union of independent states without these sensless rivalries

issue would be IAF, if IAF can destroy PAF and if IN can destroy PN quickly(and dont have to face PAF threat) than they can achieve their target of subduing Pakistan via damaging our naval access and freely bombing precious targets

Pakistan therefore needs to get more thunders, f16s possible third platform

why do you think countries in Pakistan position have always focused on strong airforce..things have changed more towards this

 

[Zhukov]

issue would be IAF, if IAF can destroy PAF and if IN can destroy PN quickly(and dont have to face PAF threat) than they can achieve their target of subduing Pakistan via damaging our naval access and freely bombing precious targets

Pakistan therefore needs to get more thunders, f16s possible third platform

why do you think countries in Pakistan position have always focused on strong airforce..things have changed more towards this

How can IAF destroy PAF in Pakistani skies aith all our Air defences targetted toward easter border? You think it is going to be Plane to Plane Dogfight of 40s and 50s?
You think the elephant sized Su30MKI can evade Defense radars and SAMS in this densly packed war theater of Indo-Pak?
Another Myth Rinsed and Repeated by same folks that believe India have 10 times larger army then Pak.
Su30MKI is a long range air superiority fighter primarily deployed to counter Chinese threat with its huge landscape and nature of possible war with china. And even with its deployment, Su30 can still be taken down in air to air combat by AIM120 and SD10 BVRAAMs of Pakistan it is not invincible
IndoPak war will be a barrage of standoff weapons for most of the time by the looks of inventories.
Rest of Indian Inventory Mirage 2000s Mig29s Jaguars etc are all mediocre like our F16s and JF17s
Pakistan is not Invading India in any capacity. We are in a defensive war in case India try any stupid adventure. And we have to defend our own airspace and Assets which no Indian aircraft is capable of penetrating untill they get 5th gen high tech Jets and electronic warfare capability.
We should be concerned more about the next generation of aircrafts not current 4th gen class.
Indian Navy is the only genuine threat if they can put a naval blockade on our costs then this is bad news and we dont have any long range striker to target Indian navy naval assets. But then again india have massive coastline to defend as compare to smaller Pakistan coastline. Indian coastline might be like 15 times longer then Pakistan.

anyways i dont think India and Pakistan are an existential threat to each other.
Its just most of people living on both sides are stupid chest beating braggers who think huge bloated poorly equipped and trained armies and Abusing each other is a source of pride at a time when masses are poverty struck on both sides ruled by tax evading corrupt tycoons. Both are self obsessed poor nations.
I hope subcontinent folks open their eyes and see the reality.

 

[ziaulislam]

How can IAF destroy PAF in Pakistani skies aith all our Air defences targetted toward easter border? You think it is going to be Plane to Plane Dogfight of 40s and 50s?
You think the elephant sized Su30MKI can evade Defense radars and SAMS in this densly packed war theater of Indo-Pak?
Another Myth Rinsed and Repeated by same folks that believe India have 10 times larger army then Pak.
Su30MKI is a long range air superiority fighter primarily deployed to counter Chinese threat with its huge landscape and nature of possible war with china. And even with its deployment, Su30 can still be taken down in air to air combat by AIM120 and SD10 BVRAAMs of Pakistan it is not invincible
IndoPak war will be a barrage of standoff weapons for most of the time by the looks of inventories.
Rest of Indian Inventory Mirage 2000s Mig29s Jaguars etc are all mediocre like our F16s and JF17s
Pakistan is not Invading India in any capacity. We are in a defensive war in case India try any stupid adventure. And we have to defend our own airspace and Assets which no Indian aircraft is capable of penetrating untill they get 5th gen high tech Jets and electronic warfare capability.
We should be concerned more about the next generation of aircrafts not current 4th gen class.
Indian Navy is the only genuine threat if they can put a naval blockade on our costs then this is bad news and we dont have any long range striker to target Indian navy naval assets. But then again india have massive coastline to defend as compare to smaller Pakistan coastline. Indian coastline might be like 15 times longer then Pakistan.

anyways i dont think India and Pakistan are an existential threat to each other.
Its just most of people living on both sides are stupid chest beating braggers who think huge bloated poorly equipped and trained armies and Abusing each other is a source of pride at a time when masses are poverty struck on both sides ruled by tax evading corrupt tycoons. Both are self obsessed poor nations.
I hope subcontinent folks open their eyes and see the reality.

by 2020 IAF will have 270 SU 30, 120 migs and mirages and another 36 rafale with IN having dual prong attack having its on 4 sq/60 aircrafts

if IAF/IN is able to field all of them in much more tactical way (IAF has logistics, serviceability and pilot ratio issue) and is ready to take losses than it would be a big challenge for 170 odd 4th gen fighters we have (against ~500 4th gen Indian fighters of IN/IAF), it would be a challenge to keep the logistics going as well

to counter this we need
1. much larger no. of standard air defense system with mulit tier protection(may be JV/license production of medium range system like lY 80, or something indignious or patnered with second country)
2. atleast half to 1/3rd the number of IAF/IN have..this would mean atleast 300 jf-17s(assuming no f-16s coming)

pakistan would benefit alot if it can get hold of used f-16s

PS:
indian mirages are going through latest updates
and it would be night mare by 2025 if india is able to even deploy its LCAs(with AESA and foreign avionics through a possible 8 billion dollar deal) and its single fighter deal

if that happen PAF would need to get off the shelf fifth gen fighters as well